Morrowind mods are a fucking jungle

[Sceptic]

The idea that you can also go around and interrogate people endlessly for huge amounts of text on everything, even lowly commoners, is also just weird. The game needed better differentiation in conversation topics and responses between different characters, especially for things like their social class etc.

With respect to topics, Daggerfall was much worse. I see where you're coming from, but I also like being able to ask everyone about everything. As for responses, some of them do vary depending on whether you're asking a lowly commoner or someone in a Great House. They don't always vary though, and it would've been nice if they did. In fact it took me quite a while before even notcing the variations because of this.

I did not play the other guilds you mentioned this time around so maybe I've just forgotten.

The three I listed are IMO the best, especially in terms of a good narrative for how and why you ascend to the top. Temple was... I don't remember much of it actually, so probably not that memorable or original. Though I do remember not being able to become the head in my first run because of low skills (I consciously avoided cheesing it out with the trainers and I wasn't looking at spoilers).

For lack of a better term, the "experience" of wandering around and exploring the world is simply more interesting in Skyrim and (to a much lesser degree) Oblivion.

There is less combat in Morrowind, at least until the endgame, so it's not as big a problem as it could have been, but there's all sorts of little convenience tweaks that the newer games have (sprinting, faster harvesting of ingredients, better animations and camera) and more unique stuff to find while exploring that the hiking simulator element is much better.

The first statement is by itself reason enough to negate your argument. Oblivion and Skyrim have WAAAAAAAAY too much combat, and it doesn't matter whether it remains fun after "several" hours. Is it still fun after 30? 40? Because that's most of what you'll be doing in both games, whacking things on the head until they die. And the minimal improvements to the combat system itself (never mind that they're also balanced by the dumbing down of the character system) can't keep up with dozens of hours where you repeat the same moves over and over and over again. Morrowind suffers from this too, but at least there you don't have to repeat those moves as many times due to lesser emphasis on combat.

Some of the tweaks I agree with (faster harvesting), others are up for debate (combat animations ARE more indicative in Ob than in MW - but generally Ob graphics and animations are a piece of shit), and camera was never an issue for me in any TES because, you know, first person.

That last statement however? More unique stuff to find in Skyrim and in fucking OBLIVION? Were you smoking something? The last TES game to have a plethora (and I mean a PLETHORA) of hand placed and hand crafted stuff was Morrowind. Neither Skyrim nor Oblivion can hold a candle to it with their linear copypasta dungeons and levelled lists. So... no. Just no.

I'm referring mostly to the presentation aspects (graphics, music) and feel of the combat, and in that respect Oblivion is more enjoyable simply by virtue of being a newer, more technically proficient game. Morrowind is still pretty damn clunky no matter how many mods you install.

Music in Oblivion is pure decline compared to Morrowind, it's Jeremy Soule veering away from his better, slower and mood-capturing stuff from IWD, NWN (thanks to Excommunicator I went back and listened to the music there; some of it really is quite good, outside of the shitty combat tunes) and of course Morrowind and going full John Williams bombastic. Just compare the main menu themes from both games. Graphics in Ob are utter shit; setting aside the eye-searing bloom, you have a complete lack of anything resembling an art direction; not surprising considering the anything-goes design also applies to the graphical style having no unity or cohesiveness whatsoever. Everything looks like shiny plastic (see VD's "welcome to Disneyland" in his review; the image he chose is an eye-opener but it's also very typical). Turn off the bloom one of these days btw; I did once, because I couldn't stand the eye-searing shiny, and then realised why Bethesda used it so much; the underlying graphics are completely stale. And let's not even get into the character models.

On the technical side, MW and Ob crashed about equally for me. I heard Skyrim was more stable, and indeed what I've seen definitely indicates that Bethesda finally managed to make a stable Gamebryo game.... 10 years later.

Combat is much more fluid and less clunky in Oblivion. That's about the only concession you'll get out of me, and it doesn't in any way make Oblivion a more enjoyable game. Especially not minute to minute, when you have to put up with all the others points in addition to having to put up with so much more useless combat in the first place.

Skyrim's combat is simple, but fun, and remains fun even after several hours. Morrowind's... isn't.

Fair enough.

Skyrim is also quite pretty even without mods, there are some cool locations to find, the world design is pretty varied, and so on and so forth.

And why is this an improvement over Morrowind, whose world is just as pretty, and that has a fuckton of cool locations instead of "a few", and an even more varied world design? The only down to Morrowind is the prettyness of the world on a low level technical scale - ie polygon count and texture resolution. If that's the predominant criterium then expect accusations of graphic whore to fly. The one technical aspect that was indeed an annoyance was the view distance, to an extent, but that has been fixed by mods (and DraQ has some settings that increase view without negating the atmosphere that relies on the fog).

So yeah, ultimately my reasons for liking the new games more to actually play mostly comes down to technical and presentation reasons, but in a game where the bulk of "gameplay" is spent hiking around and hitting stuff with a sword, those elements are important.

No. NO. NO NO NO NO.

The most important element of an exploration-focused CRPG (fuck that stupid "hiking simulator" crap) is that the world be worth exploring. Quality and quantity of unique things to find, be they items or quests or NPCs or bits of lore or whatever. Being told an interesting narrative through the things you find. Using the things you found as a stepping stone to finding more things. And always having more unique things to find.

In this respect pretty much nothing holds a candle to Morrowind. Not even my beloved Might and Magic, much as I hate to admit it. And certainly not later TES.

 

[sea]

The first statement is by itself reason enough to negate your argument. Oblivion and Skyrim have WAAAAAAAAY too much combat, and it doesn't matter whether it remains fun after "several" hours. Is it still fun after 30? 40? Because that's most of what you'll be doing in both games, whacking things on the head until they die. And the minimal improvements to the combat system itself (never mind that they're also balanced by the dumbing down of the character system) can't keep up with dozens of hours where you repeat the same moves over and over and over again. Morrowind suffers from this too, but at least there you don't have to repeat those moves as many times due to lesser emphasis on combat.

Agreed here. I think the problem is that in Skyrim and Oblivion, combat is kind of there as "something to do." The actual exploration is hurt a lot by the quest compass - getting around the world itself is no longer very engaging, when in Morrowind that exploration was a big part of it - so they need combat to fill in the blank spots when you're following the compass to your next marker.

Some of the tweaks I agree with (faster harvesting), others are up for debate (combat animations ARE more indicative in Ob than in MW - but generally Ob graphics and animations are a piece of shit), and camera was never an issue for me in any TES because, you know, first person.

By camera I'm referring to the subtle shake as you move around. In Morrowind you feel like you're floating everywhere, in Skyrim especially there's a sense of weight to your movement. It's not a huge deal but when you spend so much time walking around, it's nice that it actually feels like walking. Same goes for horseback riding and similar as well. Of course, horses can't beat Fortify Jump 100 + Slowfall.

That last statement however? More unique stuff to find in Skyrim and in fucking OBLIVION? Were you smoking something? The last TES game to have a plethora (and I mean a PLETHORA) of hand placed and hand crafted stuff was Morrowind. Neither Skyrim nor Oblivion can hold a candle to it with their linear copypasta dungeons and levelled lists. So... no. Just no.

Sorry, that applied to Skyrim, not Oblivion. Oblivion, aside from towns and the daedric quests, was fucking boring and had very little to find (though there were some exceptions, like the Pale Pass quest which required you to follow natural trail markers, and there were some non-journal quests and hidden items from time to time). Skyrim though, has pretty varied towns with their own unique feel, more than 1-2 quests to take part in (a problem Morrowind sometimes has), and the dungeons ruin a pretty good gamut of tilesets, themes and so on. Morrowind is about as varied as Skyrim but I found it got stale after a while, mostly due to the lack of interesting dungeons (oh, another egg mine), lack of puzzles (even Skyrim's dead-simple ones are nice), the copy-paste houses and townspeople, and so on. I mean, Morrowind does have more towns than Skyrim, but how many have any interesting content? Pretty much every swamp/fishing village serves as nothing more than a pit stop; in Skyrim even small settlements have at least a couple things to do (not counting the tiny farmsteads).

I went back and listened to the music there; some of it really is quite good, outside of the shitty combat tunes) and of course Morrowind and going full John Williams bombastic. Just compare the main menu themes from both games.

Morrowind's soundtrack is better on its own; I think Oblivion's was a better blend as far as fitting into the gameplay and world - the exploration themes especially are just as good as Morrowind's, though I'll give you the title theme (Oblivion's is good but it's associated with too many bad memories). Morrowind had fewer songs and the lack of combat and dungeon themes was silly (i.e. your final confrontation with Dagoth Ur features happy town music playing).

Graphics in Ob are utter shit

So are Morrowind's, but as you noted Morrowind does have art style and in its own way still looks good today even without mods. What I really like in Oblivion are the forests and plains - it was the first game I played that really made me feel like I was in a dense, lush wood or striding through a wide open field. I agree that the rest of it is either extremely bland (textures and environments) or just fugly (characters) but to be honest, aside from the giant mushrooms Morrowind is also pretty generic in most places too.

On the technical side, MW and Ob crashed about equally for me. I heard Skyrim was more stable, and indeed what I've seen definitely indicates that Bethesda finally managed to make a stable Gamebryo game.... 10 years later.

Morrowind was less stable for me, albeit I mostly played Oblivion with the unofficial patches installed, and they fixed tons of issues. Skyrim, after the first few months of patches, is perfectly stable and crashes maybe once every 10-20 hours for me.

Combat is much more fluid and less clunky in Oblivion. That's about the only concession you'll get out of me, and it doesn't in any way make Oblivion a more enjoyable game. Especially not minute to minute, when you have to put up with all the others points in addition to having to put up with so much more useless combat in the first place.

I dunno. Most of your time is spent wandering through forests and plains and fighting monsters, not talking to NPCs. Oblivion did get that stuff mostly right (if you discount the atrocious level scaling), and even though the combat is simple at least it has proper hit feedback and is more than just abstracted die rolls hidden behind ugly, blocky character models flailing at each other wildly.

And why is this an improvement over Morrowind, whose world is just as pretty, and that has a fuckton of cool locations instead of "a few", and an even more varied world design? The only down to Morrowind is the prettyness of the world on a low level technical scale - ie polygon count and texture resolution. If that's the predominant criterium then expect accusations of graphic whore to fly. The one technical aspect that was indeed an annoyance was the view distance, to an extent, but that has been fixed by mods (and DraQ has some settings that increase view without negating the atmosphere that relies on the fog)

I dunno. For me, Morrowind had a lot of cool base locations (that is, templates and tilesets) but the individual elements were not as interesting. All those egg mines, ancestral tombs, villages with nothing of interest in them except maybe something relevant to another quest... eh. The big cities/towns (Ald-ruhn, Vivec, Balmora, Gnisis, Sadrith Mora, Sadrith Mora) were cool and had a lot to do in them, but once you've seen one or two of those daedric shrines, you've seen them all. Even the dwemer ruins were a disappointment for me, as most of them were very small compared to the ones in Skyrim.

Oblivion is another story. Aside from the Imperial City and maybe one or two of the other ones here and there, plus a few select dungeons and daedric quests, its locations are boring as hell.

The most important element of an exploration-focused CRPG (fuck that stupid "hiking simulator" crap) is that the world be worth exploring. Quality and quantity of unique things to find, be they items or quests or NPCs or bits of lore or whatever. Being told an interesting narrative through the things you find. Using the things you found as a stepping stone to finding more things. And always having more unique things to find.

In this respect pretty much nothing holds a candle to Morrowind. Not even my beloved Might and Magic, much as I hate to admit it. And certainly not later TES.

Skyrim actually gets pretty damn close to Morrowind in this respect. In fact I feel like this whole discussion is colored by the fact that you played Oblivion but not Skyrim. Skyrim is far closer to Morrowind than Oblivion is - if you can stomach the simpler character building, weaker writing and lore, and install some mods to make the UI better, give it a try and I think you'll probably understand where I'm coming from better. Skyrim's biggest overall weakness is the lack of openness to the game world's systems and rules (much more limited and static AI than Oblivion, even more restricted magic, etc.).

 

[Broseph]

Skyrim actually gets pretty damn close to Morrowind in this respect. In fact I feel like this whole discussion is colored by the fact that you played Oblivion but not Skyrim. Skyrim is far closer to Morrowind than Oblivion is - if you can stomach the simpler character building, weaker writing and lore, and install some mods to make the UI better, give it a try and I think you'll probably understand where I'm coming from better. Skyrim's biggest overall weakness is the lack of openness to the game world's systems and rules (much more limited and static AI than Oblivion, even more restricted magic, etc.).

While it's true that Skyrim's level scaling is far less intrusive than Oblivion, it's still very noticeable and kills any sense of excitement you get from exploring dungeons. Skyrim does have some unique items and artifacts, but they're almost always at the end of a questline (and you can't stumble upon them) and they're even scaled to your level when you get them, so there's no reason to do any artifact quests until late in the game unless you want to be stuck with an inferior version. That, along with the simplified rule systems, are its biggest flaws, but yes, it's still a huge improvement over Oblivion, especially in regards to art direction, lore, and world building. Sceptic should play it with a few mods.

 

[sea]

While it's true that Skyrim's level scaling is far less intrusive than Oblivion, it's still very noticeable and kills any sense of excitement you get from exploring dungeons. Skyrim does have some unique items and artifacts, but they're almost always at the end of a questline (and you can't stumble upon them) and they're even scaled to your level when you get them, so there's no reason to do any artifact quests until late in the game unless you want to be stuck with an inferior version. That, along with the simplified rule systems, are its biggest flaws, but yes, it's still a huge improvement over Oblivion, especially in regards to art direction, lore, and world building. Sceptic should play it with a few mods.

That's the difference. Skyrim is basically mechanically broken (especially enchanting and alchemy systems). But mechanics can be fixed with mods. Oblivion can and will never be fixed because its problems are so fundamental (though that said, Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul did help a hell of a lot).

 

[Turisas]

That's the difference. Skyrim is basically mechanically broken (especially enchanting and alchemy systems). But mechanics can be fixed with mods.

Are there mods that add stats and item durability? What about spellmaking?

 

[sea]

That's the difference. Skyrim is basically mechanically broken (especially enchanting and alchemy systems). But mechanics can be fixed with mods.

Are there mods that add stats and item durability? What about spellmaking?

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/33277/

Someone is working on another spellmaking mod as well that doesn't seem to need staves/crafting:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1422677-skyrim-spellmaking-mod-the-last-altar-wip/

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/33411/

Works well with the crafting system. Weapons can now become dull and ineffectual if you don't repair them often enough, and when tempered they gradually lose quality after use. Now there is a reason to use smithing and you don't even necessarily have to grind 100,000,000 iron daggers to get it leveled.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Are there mods that add stats

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/13968/

Third Era Attributes for Skyrim

and item durability?

http://www.skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/32057/

Weapons and Armor Degradation and Repair

What about spellmaking?

Ongoing. There are some mods that add spells with new effects, though, like Midas Magic, Apocalypse Spells and Forgotten Mastery (which I use)

edit: Derp, beaten 50 minutes ago. That's what I get for not refreshing the page after I leave the tab open while I do something else.

 

[Sceptic]

I think the problem is that in Skyrim and Oblivion, combat is kind of there as "something to do." The actual exploration is hurt a lot by the quest compass - getting around the world itself is no longer very engaging, when in Morrowind that exploration was a big part of it - so they need combat to fill in the blank spots when you're following the compass to your next marker.

I think you've nailed it. It's also why exploration was so much fun in Might and Magic - those games did have a lot of combat too, but you still had the feeling of poking around unknown places looking for whatever it is you could find. Once quest compasses appear "exploration" becomes a matter of following the arrow to the destination and clicking whatever it is you're supposed to click.

Same goes for horseback riding and similar as well. Of course, horses can't beat Fortify Jump 100 + Slowfall.

That's a very different argument, though one I think we agree MW wins hands down: the flexibility in building your own custom stuff, be it with enchants or spellmaker. It's also the part you have to be most careful with as it's way too easy to hopelessly break the game unless you set yourself some reasonable limits (ie no +1000 INT potions).

Oblivion, aside from towns and the daedric quests, was fucking boring and had very little to find (though there were some exceptions, like the Pale Pass quest which required you to follow natural trail markers, and there were some non-journal quests and hidden items from time to time).

Funny, I too thought the Oblivion "non-quests" like these were actually the best ones, because they required you to actually think about what you were doing instead of following the magical arrow. It was a throwback to pre-quest log questing, again reminding me of the old Might and Magic, and it was so utterly unconnected to the rest of the game. There's another one I remember fondly, a "quest" chain of sorts in one of the caves with a lich, whose story you could piece together through journals stewn about. Nothing tells you where to find the journals, or even that they exist, you just explore until you find them.

Morrowind had fewer songs and the lack of combat and dungeon themes was silly (i.e. your final confrontation with Dagoth Ur features happy town music playing).

I thought the Dagoth Ur confrontation played one of the Ghostfence themes, but I could be wrong, it's been a while.

So are Morrowind's, but as you noted Morrowind does have art style and in its own way still looks good today even without mods. What I really like in Oblivion are the forests and plains - it was the first game I played that really made me feel like I was in a dense, lush wood or striding through a wide open field. I agree that the rest of it is either extremely bland (textures and environments) or just fugly (characters) but to be honest, aside from the giant mushrooms Morrowind is also pretty generic in most places too.

By "shit" I meant specifically the complete lack of style in Ob. The feeling of terrain you got in Ob I already had from MM6, so didn't really notice it much in Ob, though going around on horseback was good fun I guess. I do remember getting a much better feel of lush forests and vast plains in Two Worlds - that game did the horseback overworld exploration that Ob prided itself on a thousand times better (and was also a much, much prettier game). Regarding MW, there's a great deal of variety between the various terrains: the Bitter Coast's swamps, the Ashlands, Azura's Coast's more lush vegetation, the desolation inside the Ghostfence (not to mention the very look of the Ghostfence the first time you stumble on it... NOTHING like this exists in Oblivion). Then of course you have the great variation in architecture, from those "boxy" buildings in Vivec to the Redoran households to the Telvanni mushrooms to the Imperial typically-medieval citadels... it's about as far from generic as you can get. Of course the medieval citadels are... and that's kinda the point, they're ugly Imperial fortificaitons in a land that doesn't like foreigners. Compare to Oblivion where EVERY CITY is full of medieval faux-gothic cathedrals, in a land that is polytheistic and where each Divine supposedly has his own worship, his own cult, his own architecture... urgh.

I dunno. Most of your time is spent wandering through forests and plains and fighting monsters, not talking to NPCs. Oblivion did get that stuff mostly right (if you discount the atrocious level scaling)

I don't think it's discountable, and I think this is our main point of contention. Combat in a CRPG has to be there for a reason, when there is so much of it. If it's not a tactically interesting design, or a way to become more powerful, then it's boring filler that shouldn't be there and makes me feel I'm playing an action game. Level scaling automatically eliminates combat as a means to power, because your enemies are levelling with you. Worse, if your stat allocation isn't heavily geared towards combat, you become weaker as you fight more and level up more. That's the cardinal sin of level scaling.

once you've seen one or two of those daedric shrines, you've seen them all. Even the dwemer ruins were a disappointment for me, as most of them were very small compared to the ones in Skyrim.

I have very fond memories of several shrines, each of which had a design gimmick that made it stand out. Same for the dwemer ruins, especially the larger ones (like the Puzzle Box one). Even the caverns: Urshilaku Burial, one of the best dungeon designs in any CRPG. I think what I miss most from MW is the verticality. Urshilaku obviously had it, but so did many of the shrines and dwemer ruins. Nothing like this reappeared in Oblivion or Skyrim.

Skyrim actually gets pretty damn close to Morrowind in this respect. In fact I feel like this whole discussion is colored by the fact that you played Oblivion but not Skyrim.

I've completed both MW and Oblivion (don't ask me why on the latter), while I've only put a few hours into Skyrim using other people's saves at various points in the game to get a feel for it. I will certainly admit I have far less knowledge about it, though I think you shot yourself in the foot in your first posts by bringing up the comparisons with Oblivion instead of skipping it and comparing only to Skyrim. Maybe I should give it another chance, especially now that patches and mods are out in full force. I don't know whether I'll be able to get past all the other problems though, like the writing and lore (what I saw in Jimbob's LP wasn't just bad, it was BAAAAAAAAAD) and all the fun experimental stuff (ie Spellmaker) going out the window. I guess if I can detach it from the Daggerfall/Morrowind experience I could still get some enjoyment out of it.

Anyway this was good fun, thanks. I'm almost convinced you willfully inserted some bait in your first post to get a reaction like mine and get a conversation going.

 

[Broseph]

Many, many brofists for your posts in this thread Sceptic. You are a true bro.

 

[Carrion]

Most dungeons are very small and uninteresting. I was expecting massive, sprawling underground labyrinths, but surprisingly there aren't too many of those throughout the game. There are very few dungeons which contain any sort of story or quest material as well - one thing later Elder Scrolls games do well is give a sense of narrative to these locations with unique books and notes lying around, and I was surprised to see this mostly missing in Morrowind.

Couldn't disagree more. I think even the smallest dungeons in Morrowind usually have something to separate them from others: perhaps some water, or a hidden passage, or a mage who just wants to be left alone. They also thematically make much more sense than the dungeons in Oblivion or Skyrim. Why would bandits be holed up in some huge labyrinth? They just need a hole in the wall where they can sleep and keep their stuff. The balance between smaller and bigger dungeons is really good in my opinion, and the pacing of the game is much better because of that.

Like has already been said, the sense of narrative is there, and I think Morrowind does it in a much superior way compared to written notes and even the set-pieces that Skyrim does very well. Especially Oblivion also has tons of dungeons that don't make any kind of sense, like bandits keeping their base in some enormously complex, wet cave where's barely any light at all. Skyrim is full of linear dungeons that would be incredibly impractical in reality. In Morrowind the game world is much more coherent than in the later games and the dungeons support that really well.

The game really could have benefited from a bit more unique dialogue too. What's there is excellent, but I wish I could have asked direct questions of various NPCs. The info-dump format to conversations robs a lot of personality from characters and makes it hard to ask a very specific question. The encyclopedic format means that you do get a ton of information, but it also means that if you have a question or topic it doesn't cover, you probably won't find an answer. I hate to say it, but I actually think I prefer having 1-3 topics of conversation with an NPC, and having those topics be unique to that particular NPC, to the encyclopedia system in Morrowind.

I think the dialogue in Oblivion and Skyrim gives a much greater ”info dump” feeling than Morrowind. In Morrowind you're not expected to talk to everyone about everything – you ask something when you need it, talk to people when you've actually got a reason for it. Some people are just commoners, some people might turn out to be a lot more, but you might only find that out dozens of hours of later, which helps build an illusion that the whole world doesn't revolve around you. In Oblivion and Skyrim you've got these incredibly shallow characters whose personality and whole history has been crammed into a few lines of dialogue: ”Hello, I'm Faggoth, I've got this book store here, I'm the sister of Dyketh, I'd love to help you but I'm so depressed because I lost my family heirloom in the Butt Pirate Cave, ask me for latest rumors and I'll give you one”, or "I'm Beelzebub gro-Satan, I worship the Daedra, don't screw with me or I'll kick your ass, let me drink my mead in peace". And that's literally everything there is to one character. It's painfully artificial and forced and doesn't work in the slightest because it just turns everyone into a one-dimensional cartoon character.

There's some wasted potential with factions. I think the execution and high-level quest design here was mostly good, and seeing events from different sides based on who you're working for is great, but the low-level quest design sucked. Become archmage of all Morrowind by picking flowers and finding some old books! Deliver enough warm meals to lepers and eventually become a saint! The lack of storylines for the factions, or progression in the quests, was a pretty noticeable weakness (only Telvanni seemed to have any sense of growth and progression to me). And, although you get a disposition hit or boost with people depending on your faction association, I would have liked to see greater consequences for siding with A over B, something that can't be solved with a bribe or sweet-talking.

I think the lack of a clear ”storyline” is a plus. There is a story with almost every guild, but it's fairly non-linear and doesn't overshadow the rest of the content. Oblivion's and Skyrim's guilds in general don't really feel like guilds in the first place because you just follow a linear trail of "epic" quests that have nothing to do with the normal business of that guild. Skyrim's actually the worst of all in this regard.

I also couldn't disagree more about the lack of progression in the quests. In general they're pretty mundane tasks, like you'd expect from those guilds, but in the Mages Guild you start with picking up mushrooms and end up searching for Dwemer artifacts and catching spies (not to mention the quests you may get from Trebonius). I think this is another aspect of world-building where Morrowind stands heads and shoulders above Oblivion and Skyrim: the guilds are more concerned with their internal politics, influence and power than anything else, and the quests you get generally reflect this.

I do agree that being in a higher position in a faction should've been more beneficial.

For lack of a better term, the "experience" of wandering around and exploring the world is simply more interesting in Skyrim and (to a much lesser degree) Oblivion. There is less combat in Morrowind, at least until the endgame, so it's not as big a problem as it could have been, but there's all sorts of little convenience tweaks that the newer games have (sprinting, faster harvesting of ingredients, better animations and camera) and more unique stuff to find while exploring that the hiking simulator element is much better.

The quest compass and fast travel pretty much drag it down completely, though. You don't really need to explore because the locations show up in your radar and after that you can just take a beeline to the closest dungeon. Everything gets marked on your map, ready for fast traveling, which makes the world feel like a theme park. Getting from A to B is just a matter of a mouse click or a chore depending on whether you fast travel or not whereas in Morrowind it's often the best part of the quest – choosing your method of travel, trying to find your way based on some vague directions, maybe getting lost and bumping into another quest or some obscure cave in the middle of nowhere knowing that you're probably not going to find it later. It really gives you a sense of discovery and adventure that you simply won't get when everything is handed to you on a silver platter.

Then there's all the obscure stuff that the game's full of. Did you ever become a vampire? Have you found the ”underwater city”? How about Daedric shrines in general, how many of them have you visited? The game's full of great locations that are really hard to find and where you're never given any clear directions to. You may read about something in a book, or hear some vague rumors, and you're never quite sure whether it's true or not. In Oblivion or Skyrim, if you hear about something, it always exists and probably has a quest tied to it, complete with a quest marker. There are no real secrets in the game world, you'll run into the interesting stuff sooner or later anyway.

To me Skyrim is just a chunk of content that wants to be exhausted. You go to a town, you get a million quests in five minutes. Do those quests and you're more or less done with that town. Walk through a forest, keep an eye on your radar and you'll find every dungeon in that part of the world, all of which you can return to later with one mouse click. Although I've spent much more time with Morrowind, which has a smaller game world, I still feel there's much more for me to find in Morrowind than in Skyrim. There's a genuine sense of mystery to the game world that the later games simply don't have.

 

[Borelli]

Morrowind dungeons have ... what's the word, verisimilitude? All tombs use the same graphics and have same types of enemies in them, ditto for daedra shrines, cave is just that, a cave, not a huge complex. They ARE small though, some daedra shrines are literally one big room, only the story dungeons (like the one the ashlanders send you to) have that Daggerfall massive complex labyrinth feel. In Daggerfall it doesn't matter if it is a tomb, abandoned castle or caves, you will find the same man made walls with doors and sunken towers. Now that IS awesome but is just not the thing Morrowind was aiming for.

Have you found the ”underwater city”?

First time hearing about this. You got me intrigued, drop a hint.

 

[sea]

Couldn't disagree more. I think even the smallest dungeons in Morrowind usually have something to separate them from others: perhaps some water, or a hidden passage, or a mage who just wants to be left alone. They also thematically make much more sense than the dungeons in Oblivion or Skyrim. Why would bandits be holed up in some huge labyrinth? They just need a hole in the wall where they can sleep and keep their stuff. The balance between smaller and bigger dungeons is really good in my opinion, and the pacing of the game is much better because of that

Noted and agreed, but I guess I was referring more to gameplay variety in each dungeon. There are definitely unique ones, but I think they are outnumbered by the more generic ones.

Like has already been said, the sense of narrative is there, and I think Morrowind does it in a much superior way compared to written notes and even the set-pieces that Skyrim does very well. Especially Oblivion also has tons of dungeons that don't make any kind of sense, like bandits keeping their base in some enormously complex, wet cave where's barely any light at all. Skyrim is full of linear dungeons that would be incredibly impractical in reality. In Morrowind the game world is much more coherent than in the later games and the dungeons support that really well.

I agree with you about the impracticality (especially the extremely convenient shortcuts back to the entrance). But I also don't think the notes are too heavy-handed. They give the dungeons a feeling of life, like you aren't the only one who was there before aside from monsters. There's only so much you can do with environmental storytelling as "complicated" as "there is a mage inside this ruin."

I think the dialogue in Oblivion and Skyrim gives a much greater ”info dump” feeling than Morrowind. In Morrowind you're not expected to talk to everyone about everything – you ask something when you need it, talk to people when you've actually got a reason for it. Some people are just commoners, some people might turn out to be a lot more, but you might only find that out dozens of hours of later, which helps build an illusion that the whole world doesn't revolve around you. In Oblivion and Skyrim you've got these incredibly shallow characters whose personality and whole history has been crammed into a few lines of dialogue: ”Hello, I'm Faggoth, I've got this book store here, I'm the sister of Dyketh, I'd love to help you but I'm so depressed because I lost my family heirloom in the Butt Pirate Cave, ask me for latest rumors and I'll give you one”, or "I'm Beelzebub gro-Satan, I worship the Daedra, don't screw with me or I'll kick your ass, let me drink my mead in peace". And that's literally everything there is to one character. It's painfully artificial and forced and doesn't work in the slightest because it just turns everyone into a one-dimensional cartoon character

Again, Skyrim is much better. Oblivion's dialogue is cringe-worthy all the time. But as I've already said I wasn't specifically saying that I prefer Oblivion's dialogue - it's the dialogue system I like more. The content is another story.

I also couldn't disagree more about the lack of progression in the quests. In general they're pretty mundane tasks, like you'd expect from those guilds, but in the Mages Guild you start with picking up mushrooms and end up searching for Dwemer artifacts and catching spies (not to mention the quests you may get from Trebonius). I think this is another aspect of world-building where Morrowind stands heads and shoulders above Oblivion and Skyrim: the guilds are more concerned with their internal politics, influence and power than anything else, and the quests you get generally reflect this.

I fully agree with this side of it. One thing I didn't mention in the original post htat I really like, is that the guilds in Morrowind are extremely self-interested and often as you to do morally reprehensible things in the name of the guild's "good". There are obviously corrupt superiors asking you to gather evidence against their rivals so they can secure a promotion, you're asked to murder people who are in all probability innocent just to deny the other guilds the opportunity to recruit them, etc. I wouldn't call it "moral grey area" so much because you rarely have a choice in how to solve the quests, but it does make you consider what you're doing and if maybe you had the wrong idea about your guild.

The quest compass and fast travel pretty much drag it down completely, though. You don't really need to explore because the locations show up in your radar and after that you can just take a beeline to the closest dungeon. Everything gets marked on your map, ready for fast traveling, which makes the world feel like a theme park. Getting from A to B is just a matter of a mouse click or a chore depending on whether you fast travel or not whereas in Morrowind it's often the best part of the quest – choosing your method of travel, trying to find your way based on some vague directions, maybe getting lost and bumping into another quest or some obscure cave in the middle of nowhere knowing that you're probably not going to find it later. It really gives you a sense of discovery and adventure that you simply won't get when everything is handed to you on a silver platter.

First thing I did in Skyrim and Oblivion was edit the INI file to remove the compass from the HUD. Made the game much more fun.

Then there's all the obscure stuff that the game's full of. Did you ever become a vampire? Have you found the ”underwater city”? How about Daedric shrines in general, how many of them have you visited? The game's full of great locations that are really hard to find and where you're never given any clear directions to. You may read about something in a book, or hear some vague rumors, and you're never quite sure whether it's true or not. In Oblivion or Skyrim, if you hear about something, it always exists and probably has a quest tied to it, complete with a quest marker. There are no real secrets in the game world, you'll run into the interesting stuff sooner or later anyway.

I did a lot of exploring but I admit that I could easily have missed stuff - I spent maybe 40-50 hours on Morrowind this time and that's likely not enough to see even 1/3 of it. I just wanted to get through the main and some of the guild quests I hadn't done before quickly, in order to finish things and "get that game out of the way for good." I didn't play either expansion so I'll be returning in the near future for those at the very least.

That said, Skyrim has a good number of interesting dungeons. There's Blackreach, the massive inter-connected series of caves and dwemer ruins that cover the entire northern part of the world, and there's also plenty of dungeons with unique "gimmicks" to them like special enemy types or puzzles, and the daedric-related dungeons too. Admittedly most of the more interesting ones are quest-related in some way. Dragonborn has some good ones too.

 

[Carrion]

Have you found the ”underwater city”?

First time hearing about this. You got me intrigued, drop a hint.

It's a rumour you can hear in Gnaar Mok, probably in some other coastal villages as well. The rumour is a bit exaggerated, but taking a swim around those places is definitely worth it. I won't spoil it more than that.

First thing I did in Skyrim and Oblivion was edit the INI file to remove the compass from the HUD. Made the game much more fun.

Yeah, me too. Still, Skyrim rarely gives you any kind of directions at all, so you're still stuck with magical map markers. I can live with that, but travelling still feels too much like busywork. I know there's a mod for Skyrim which adds Morrowind-type directions to quest descriptions making the compass and markers optional, but I finished the game before that thing was out.

That said, Skyrim has a good number of interesting dungeons. There's Blackreach, the massive inter-connected series of caves and dwemer ruins that cover the entire northern part of the world, and there's also plenty of dungeons with unique "gimmicks" to them like special enemy types or puzzles, and the daedric-related dungeons too. Admittedly most of the more interesting ones are quest-related in some way. Dragonborn has some good ones too.

Yeah, I like Skyrim's dungeons in general. The linearity is a big minus for me, though, and the enemy variety leaves a lot to be desired. Also, one thing that kind of killed the joy of exploration for me was that the game occasionally sends you into dungeons you've cleared already, even though the Radiant Quests were supposed to prevent that. It's kind of lame to enter a cave, fight your way to the end and barely survive, get as much loot as you can carry, and a couple of hours later get a quest to find someone's sword in the exact same cave, in a chest that you've already looted, having to fight the same battles again except against higher-level creatures. The sword had supposedly been there for decades, so why didn't I find it the first time I was there? You can't usually stumble upon a quest the same way you could in Morrowind, although Morrowind admittedly didn't always do such a good job with it either (the quest journal can get pretty messy if you do some quest phases out of order).

 

[Turisas]

It's a rumour you can hear in Gnaar Mok, probably in some other coastal villages as well. The rumour is a bit exaggerated, but taking a swim around those places is definitely worth it. I won't spoil it more than that.

Was that the

Spoiler

dreugh city (tho that might've been a mod, it's been so long), or do you mean Boethiah's ruined shrine?

 

[baturinsky]

Then there's all the obscure stuff that the game's full of. Did you ever become a vampire? Have you found the ”underwater city”?

My biggest disappointment with Skyrim was lack of sunken Winterhold...

 

[Carrion]

Was that the

Spoiler

dreugh city (tho that might've been a mod, it's been so long), or do you mean Boethiah's ruined shrine?

I mean

Spoiler

the shrine. Dunno about the dreugh city, might be just a mod, at least I don't remember anything like that. There's also an underwater Dwemer ruin near Ebonheart.[\spoiler]

 

[Turisas]

Must've been. Nothing on UESP about any such place, and if it's not on UESP, it doesn't really exist.

Hmh, gotta go find it now. If memory serves, it was pretty well-made.

 

[Turjan]

One thing I didn't mention in the original post htat I really like, is that the guilds in Morrowind are extremely self-interested and often as you to do morally reprehensible things in the name of the guild's "good". There are obviously corrupt superiors asking you to gather evidence against their rivals so they can secure a promotion, you're asked to murder people who are in all probability innocent just to deny the other guilds the opportunity to recruit them, etc. I wouldn't call it "moral grey area" so much because you rarely have a choice in how to solve the quests, but it does make you consider what you're doing and if maybe you had the wrong idea about your guild.

Not sure if I agree with your last point here. Morrowind has lots of faction quests that you can solve in different ways. It's also possible to refuse or sabotage some of the more reprehensible orders, which the game may even honor with a reputation increase in the guild while you lose disposition with your quest giver. As Morrowind has more quests per faction than needed for progress in the guild, you have some leeway in choosing your actions without bringing your career to a grinding halt. Also, losing disposition with your quest giver is easily fixable (too easy, actually).

 

[sea]

Not sure if I agree with your last point here. Morrowind has lots of faction quests that you can solve in different ways. It's also possible to refuse or sabotage some of the more reprehensible orders, which the game may even honor with a reputation increase in the guild while you lose disposition with your quest giver. As Morrowind has more quests per faction than needed for progress in the guild, you have some leeway in choosing your actions without bringing your career to a grinding halt. Also, losing disposition with your quest giver is easily fixable (too easy, actually).

Some, not all. And I'm not sure if "kill this person or convince them to join us" is much of an option to be honest. I guess I just would have liked to see more quests that give you more to do than either killing an NPC or raising their disposition to 70-80 with a charm spell or speech skill. There are quests where you actually have to do something to complete an alternate path, but they are few and far between.

 

[Turjan]

Some, not all. And I'm not sure if "kill this person or convince them to join us" is much of an option to be honest. I guess I just would have liked to see more quests that give you more to do than either killing an NPC or raising their disposition to 70-80 with a charm spell or speech skill. There are quests where you actually have to do something to complete an alternate path, but they are few and far between.

Well, I just paid Manwe's dues and didn't kill her, and I didn't kill Serjo Oran's kwama queen, either. No, you can't avoid all "kill or charm" quests, but the game gives you often enough several options on how to solve quests, which is rare as hens' teeth in later TES games.

 

[Regvard]

Not sure if I agree with your last point here. Morrowind has lots of faction quests that you can solve in different ways. It's also possible to refuse or sabotage some of the more reprehensible orders, which the game may even honor with a reputation increase in the guild while you lose disposition with your quest giver. As Morrowind has more quests per faction than needed for progress in the guild, you have some leeway in choosing your actions without bringing your career to a grinding halt. Also, losing disposition with your quest giver is easily fixable (too easy, actually).

Some, not all. And I'm not sure if "kill this person or convince them to join us" is much of an option to be honest. I guess I just would have liked to see more quests that give you more to do than either killing an NPC or raising their disposition to 70-80 with a charm spell or speech skill. There are quests where you actually have to do something to complete an alternate path, but they are few and far between.

Most factions have more than 1 quest giver/handler anyway. If you are not happy with the task you are given, you can often go work for someone else.

 

[sea]

Most factions have more than 1 quest giver/handler anyway. If you are not happy with the task you are given, you can often go work for someone else.

Yeah, but I think you have to do all or at least the vast majority in order to complete the questline.

Anyway, I've moved on to Bloodmoon and have put in a few hours. Is it just me or is it... not very good? Very few NPCs to talk to and very few quests, lots of copy-pasted boring forests with nothing in them except bears and wolves and naked berserkers who attack you for no reason, copy-pasted barrow dungeons with almost nothing to find in them, etc. And now I find that Raven Rock doesn't even fucking exist, it's just a mound with some ebony to mine (okay, maybe it turns into something later, because I cannot imagine them not having a single town on the island).

And the HP bloat. What the hell? Are you fucking kidding me? A cave bear has more HP than the avatar of Dagoth Ur, leader of the Sixth House Cult and a freaking demigod? A boar can take more punishment than a man decked out in full armor? The draugr are far stronger than any standard skeletons or zombies you've ever seen before? Then there's all the locked chests. Apparently the Nords were masters of unlocking because every single chest in their barrows has a lock level of between 50 and 90, and the loot inside them either sucks or has very little value.

 

[Regvard]

Most factions have more than 1 quest giver/handler anyway. If you are not happy with the task you are given, you can often go work for someone else.

Yeah, but I think you have to do all or at least the vast majority in order to complete the questline.

Anyway, I've moved on to Bloodmoon and have put in a few hours. Is it just me or is it... not very good? Very few NPCs to talk to and very few quests, lots of copy-pasted boring forests with nothing in them except bears and wolves and naked berserkers who attack you for no reason, copy-pasted barrow dungeons with almost nothing to find in them, etc. And now I find that Raven Rock doesn't even fucking exist, it's just a mound with some ebony to mine (okay, maybe it turns into something later, because I cannot imagine them not having a single town on the island).

And the HP bloat. What the hell? Are you fucking kidding me? A cave bear has more HP than the avatar of Dagoth Ur, leader of the Sixth House Cult and a freaking demigod? A boar can take more punishment than a man decked out in full armor? The draugr are far stronger than any standard skeletons or zombies you've ever seen before? Then there's all the locked chests. Apparently the Nords were masters of unlocking because every single chest in their barrows has a lock level of between 50 and 90, and the loot inside them either sucks or has very little value.

Same thing happens in Mournhold too, goblin clubs being better than most weapons in the island etc. Stupid shit. Though the player was expected to be a god by the time they start those expansions, wouldn't be much fun if you insta killed everything.

They don't have to be masters of unlocking, there are these things called keys.

 

[Turjan]

Anyway, I've moved on to Bloodmoon and have put in a few hours. Is it just me or is it... not very good?

It's definitely not as good as the main game. The monster spawn got seriously on my nerves.

On the other hand, the late main quest is quite nice, with a few awesome locations. And yes, Raven Rock doesn't exist ... yet. I guess it's time to start working.

 

[abnaxus]

Only memorable dungeons in Morrowind for me are Kogoruhn, the dungeon with Skullcrusher and the burial dungeon of the ancient Nord warlord.

Anyway, I've moved on to Bloodmoon and have put in a few hours. Is it just me or is it... not very good? Very few NPCs to talk to and very few quests, lots of copy-pasted boring forests with nothing in them except bears and wolves and naked berserkers who attack you for no reason, copy-pasted barrow dungeons with almost nothing to find in them, etc. And now I find that Raven Rock doesn't even fucking exist, it's just a mound with some ebony to mine (okay, maybe it turns into something later, because I cannot imagine them not having a single town on the island).

And the HP bloat. What the hell? Are you fucking kidding me? A cave bear has more HP than the avatar of Dagoth Ur, leader of the Sixth House Cult and a freaking demigod? A boar can take more punishment than a man decked out in full armor? The draugr are far stronger than any standard skeletons or zombies you've ever seen before? Then there's all the locked chests. Apparently the Nords were masters of unlocking because every single chest in their barrows has a lock level of between 50 and 90, and the loot inside them either sucks or has very little value.

And Rieklings with their Reflect magic. And Reavers with their fucking strength damaging axes. And the super-werewolves from the final dungeon who can destroy a Daedric tower shield in one hit.

Still, it's interesting to play through just to compare it with Dragonborn. Revisiting some old locations, especially Gyldenhul and Bloodskal barrow, and see what Bethesda did with it.