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KickStarter Monomyth - A first person action RPG/dungeon crawler - now in Open Backer Beta

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
3,126
Location
デゼニランド
Life is really hard in Ukraine if you need to sell yourself. Good luck, ZZ!
I'm only available to shit on your work while ranting about the local gamedev being filled w/ narrative designers and not actual game developers at a price of two beers an hour.
Once I'm relaxed enough we can have a friendly chat and start hitting on local girls.
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
I heard a popular choice is to apply to Estonia for e-Residency and register your business there. https://e-resident.gov.ee/start-a-company/

That is actually one other alternative I was also thinking about, but i haven't looked into it deeply enough yet.
I believe there is a foreign commerce center in Riga for baltic/european trade relationships. They apparently have some solid connections to our local business owner union.
Taxes are pretty good there too. At least as long as the current government remains in power (elections are this year I believe). Only problem I see currently (and again, I've only looked over it superficially) are the fees for service/legal addresses. Those seem pretty expensive compared to the UK (between 600 and 1200 euros a year, as compared to 240 pounds which is roughly 280 euros). Reason is probably that foreign company establishments are rather new in Estonia and everything's running through the government. In the UK there are quite a few company formation services, which let you establish an Ltd from everywhere in the world, relatively quickly. So they gotta compete and mostly do so through various services like an e-management tool for your company, cheap addresses etc. etc.

It might still pay off to establish the company in estonia though. I believe there is virtually no corporate tax (19% in the UK). Only if you pay out dividends and distribute profits (14-20%, probably progressive taxes). But the thing is: You probably employ yourself in the company anyway, so you pay yourself a salary, which isn't a distribution of profits but actually an expense for the company in most systems. Those salaries go taxfree till around 12000 euros in most countries but only up to 6000 in estonia. So that's something to mind. However, here the diplomatic connections between countries also come into place. Some places will not tax your income if the income is received by a person in a different country. Instead, the home country of the beneficiary taxes the income, then trades it back to the foreign country according to a double tax agreement. Which is also one of the reasons why a hard brexit would be a bit unlucky. I have no idea whether the double tax agreement has already been finalized for such a case.


Yadda yadda yadda tl;dr: In the end you gotta do the math. Which is why an accountant is so important. For the estonian one I could check the foreign commerce center. They might know more.

Move to Ukraine, register as a sole proprietor, enjoy paying between 5% and 15% (if you somehow manage to make >~$185k a year) each quarter as well as ~11000 UAH (~$408) fine per year into the retirement fund.

As an added bonus you get me, myself and my entire collection of Slayer albums as your friendly neighbors, not to mention hot girls on every corner.

Sole proprietorships can make sense in a lot of cases. Personally however, I'm not too happy with the aspect of full liability. A legal battle in an international market can ruin you financially and while I'm not expecting anyone to jump on it...

...Monomyth's marketing builds a lot on the reference to classic properties. These are in the hands of companies with rather trigger-happy legal teams. UU is in the hands of EA. Arx is in the hands of Bethesda/Zenimax. Now refering to old games isn't illegal per-se, but don't forget Bethesda sued Notch for naming a game "Scrolls", claiming it is building popularity through Elder Scrolls. I don't wanna know what happens if Monomyth has some success and Bethesda doesn't like the fact, there is another first person action-RPG on the market. Obviously it wouldn't be a competitor - believing that would be ridiculous. The problem is rather, if Bethesda follows a predatory legal scheme, they won't care about how big you are. Even 10-20k sales and they'll probably start eyeballing you. Make it viral and you can look forward to some trouble. That's unfortunately reality. Or at least something to take into consideration. It's not like I'm even expecting that kind of success.

From Software is less of a concern, but that has more to do with the fact, that they rarely engage in any sort of legal confrontations outside of japan - it's just too much of a hassle for them. In fact it's even hard to establish regular contact with them. Don't ask me what happens if Monomyth was translated to japanese though. It is an option I've been thinking about. After all there are still loads of King's Field players there and the market for dungeon crawlers is still relatively alive. Who knows... we'll see about all of that much, much later.

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud here. I'm not expecting any trouble, but limited liability definitely helps you sleep without nightmares.
 
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Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Oh cool, didn't know the dev of this was posting here. Ahem, I will require muh free Codex Reviewer Copy key, thanks~

(Or maybe I already posted in this thread. Give me a break, I'm old.)
 

Atrachasis

Augur
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
203
Location
The Local Group
Polishing that combat a bit.

Unfortunately establishing a company ain't so easy (or cheap) around here, but that is a problem I have to deal with sooner or later anyway. To put things into context: Where I live you pay a "minimum corporate tax rate" per year. Which is essentially a fine of up to 1700 euros if you don't make any cash. Then we got state-run unions for business owners for some reason. That is another 400 buckaroos. So you get to pay at least 2100 euros a year, just for having the audacity to exist. That ain't really a good starter package for sustainability - which is of course what we are looking for. And we haven't even talked about costs for lawyers as well as the primary deposit yet (which eventually has to sum up to 35.000 euros, that will always remain within the company account).

These numbers suggest that you may be based in Austria. Note that you might get away with a basic capital of 10.000 for the first ten years, of which you only need to deposit 5.000. Of course in case your company tanks, you'll still be personally liable for the other 5.000.

Oh, and of course, after depositing the cash, you'll be able to get it right back by selling your IP to the company.
 
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Atrachasis

Augur
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
203
Location
The Local Group
The thing is: You can't just do a kickstarter campaign without a company - or better yet: You shouldn't, due to tax reasons. Where I live there is a progressive tax on regular income and - from how I understand it - kickstarter cash would be taxed as such, meaning I'd have to drop a hefty 34-43% (since I'm also employed and the lower tax classes are already occupied by the money I get from there). I can't imagine backers would like that. So the alternative is a company, where kickstarter money falls - again, to my knowledge - under the corporate tax (which is between 10 and 30% , depending on where you live).

Might want to check that with a tax accountant or your "state-run union for business owners" (IHK). There's two things to consider - your tax rate, i.e., the percentage of your income that you actually have to wave goodbye forever -, and the tax class, which is the amount that is withheld from your paycheck. With two sources of income, one of them might automatically slide into the worst tax class, but you should recover most of the difference when you file your next tax return. But you are certainly right, having a company run the kickstarter would, tax-wise, certainly be the better solution, especially as long as it is not making a profit.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,215
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Unfortunately establishing a company ain't so easy (or cheap) around here, but that is a problem I have to deal with sooner or later anyway. To put things into context: Where I live you pay a "minimum corporate tax rate" per year. Which is essentially a fine of up to 1700 euros if you don't make any cash. Then we got state-run unions for business owners for some reason. That is another 400 buckaroos. So you get to pay at least 2100 euros a year, just for having the audacity to exist. That ain't really a good starter package for sustainability - which is of course what we are looking for. And we haven't even talked about costs for lawyers as well as the primary deposit yet (which eventually has to sum up to 35.000 euros, that will always remain within the company account).

Move to Bulgaria, where you can buy an entire house simply from the money you save due to the lower taxes.
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
Since I'll be leaving for a one-week business trip tomorrow (after which I will have another two weeks of hellish crunch) I thought I might as well give you a little update.

So what have I been doing? Mostly exactly what I'll be doing for the next three weeks, which is working on dayjob-related stuff that nobody cares about. Anyway, I still managed to sneak in a couple of game development hours here and there, so - even if that doesn't mean much anymore - that alpha is coming along and hadn't I been slapped with another deadline last month it would probably be deployed right now.
Either way, let's go through it:

Level Design - done. There are a couple rooms without much going on in them, but I'm currently polishing that. I generally try keeping "storage rooms" at a minimum (unless they are secrets) by introducing something interesting/special/challenging in most rooms - though it strongly depends on the area. Not much you can do with regular caves (unless they have some secondary theme going on - which I normally try using).



The first area is heavily interconnected with other areas. There is one "exit" in the alpha, but in the final version it will be connected to several further areas, that either loop back to a save spot in the alpha area or which can be entered from there.
Currently it's relatively hard to say, but size-wise the alpha map is roughly between a sixth and an eigth of the entire game. For comparison: One separated area of King's Field 2 (JP) was around an 8th of the entire game's space. I'm keeping that as a close reference for scale, though it doesn't say much about the amount of content. Finishing this one area effectively took 3 to 4 months - I should however note, that much of it was optimization of the workflow. At the beginning I was still torn between modular level pieces and volume-based editing. For the next few areas I will probably have a much faster blockout phase since I think I found a good balance there.

Quest Design - mostly done. You can play the area from start to finish, combine all necessary items, do all necessary puzzles - there is also some optional side stuff going on. I still need one dialogue and one very small puzzle.

Encounter Design - pretty much done. I re-introduced stealth but I'm not sure whether I'll keep it for the alpha. It's essentially Thief's light-gem system. Still a bit janky but all in all it works. Enemies currently don't have their search state activated though, as they do not yet react to sound cues.

Menu - Functional, but ugly. Still gotta make some changes to save-on-quit. I also hooked up the main menu with the actual game and put in a little text intro.

Other stuff:

AI can now open doors. Also...



Documents now contain keywords for the dialogue system. I still have to switch to a newer unreal version to highlight them though.

lcMhLBj.jpg

kD07B9p.jpg

(I still gotta go through all texts again)


Death system is currently similar to king's field 1. (start again at shrine / no repercussions atm).

I might have mentioned it before, but there are also elevators in the game. Seems like nothing special, but makes level design more interesting.


Music is still being discussed, but there is some good stuff going on there.

Sound design still needs work.

Oh yeah I'm also cutting down memory size and therefor loading times. That's something I did last week. In the end it will probably be a smart move to load everything directly at start up and do the rest via streaming. Though that means I gotta be a bit careful with save states.

And I believe that's it...
All in all, it might still take a while until I can fully focus on development again. I'll still try to get stuff done, but end of april will probably be really bad.
May should be good again. Hopefully this will be some of the last crunch I'll have to do under this contract. Anyway... some more WIP screenshots...



 
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Atomboy

Atom Team
Developer
Joined
Oct 1, 2016
Messages
724
Since I'll be leaving for a one-week business trip tomorrow (after which I will have another two weeks of hellish crunch) I thought I might as well give you a little update.

So what have I been doing? Mostly exactly what I'll be doing for the next three weeks, which is working on dayjob-related stuff that nobody cares about. Anyway, I still managed to sneak in a couple of game development hours here and there, so - even if that doesn't mean much anymore - that alpha is coming along and hadn't I been slapped with another deadline last month it would probably be deployed right now.
Either way, let's go through it:

Level Design - done. There are a couple rooms without much going on in them, but I'm currently polishing that. I generally try keeping "storage rooms" at a minimum (unless they are secrets) by introducing something interesting/special/challenging in most rooms - though it strongly depends on the area. Not much you can do with regular caves (unless they have some secondary theme going on - which I normally try using).



The first area is heavily interconnected with other areas. There is one "exit" in the alpha, but in the final version it will be connected to several further areas, that either loop back to a save spot in the alpha area or which can be entered from there.
Currently it's relatively hard to say, but size-wise the alpha map is roughly between a sixth and an eigth of the entire game. For comparison: One separated area of King's Field 2 (JP) was around an 8th of the entire game's space. I'm keeping that as a close reference for scale, though it doesn't say much about the amount of content. Finishing this one area effectively took 3 to 4 months - I should however note, that much of it was optimization of the workflow. At the beginning I was still torn between modular level pieces and volume-based editing. For the next few areas I will probably have a much faster blockout phase since I think I found a good balance there.

Quest Design - mostly done. You can play the area from start to finish, combine all necessary items, do all necessary puzzles - there is also some optional side stuff going on. I still need one dialogue and one very small puzzle.

Encounter Design - pretty much done. I re-introduced stealth but I'm not sure whether I'll keep it for the alpha. It's essentially Thief's light-gem system. Still a bit janky but all in all it works. Enemies currently don't have their search state activated though, as they do not yet react to sound cues.

Menu - Functional, but ugly. Still gotta make some changes to save-on-quit. I also hooked up the main menu with the actual game and put in a little text intro.

Other stuff:

AI can now open doors. Also...



Documents now contain keywords for the dialogue system. I still have to switch to a newer unreal version to highlight them though.

lcMhLBj.jpg

kD07B9p.jpg

(I still gotta go through all texts again)


Death system is currently similar to king's field 1. (start again at shrine / no repercussions atm).

I might have mentioned it before, but there are also elevators in the game. Seems like nothing special, but makes level design more interesting.


Music is still being discussed, but there is some good stuff going on there.

Sound design still needs work.

Oh yeah I'm also cutting down memory size and therefor loading times. That's something I did last week. In the end it will probably be a smart move to load everything directly at start up and do the rest via streaming. Though that means I gotta be a bit careful with save states.

And I believe that's it...
All in all, it might still take a while until I can fully focus on development again. I'll still try to get stuff done, but end of april will probably be really bad.
May should be good again. Hopefully this will be some of the last crunch I'll have to do under this contract. Anyway... some more WIP screenshots...




This is coming together reeeally nice, dude. Awesome work. Gorgeous.
Also, I know I'm really late to the party with this one, because I have sheer seconds of personal time for shitposting on the internet, but I'm stalking your posts from time to time and I highly doubt you'll get ganked by good ol' Todd or Miyazaki ór even Lord British for a vague homage. Take it from a guy who basically made Van Buren Slav Edition. The big guys might try shiet when we're Notch-level popular and knee deep in hookers, but it's still not illegal to be inspired by great things and make your own.
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
Currently trying to get rid of some stuff at my dayjob that's been keeping me from development for the last few weeks.
It will still take another week, but I could find some time to slightly revise the UI. Not the last revision, but a start:

53415BB1F8E5D14CC61B01935A0FD5325357B24F
 

SophosTheWise

Cipher
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
522
I'm still amazed that you're working on this on your own.

Is there anything that you think could theoretically break the game/the fun? I realize this is a weird question to ask a dev, but still - there must be a catch to this game and so far I can't see it and that makes me suspicious
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
There are quite a few things that make me paranoid. Paranoid, because I can't possibly judge them on my own.

Above all, three things:
Combat Responsiveness - this plays together with sounds and animations. The "feel" so to say, which is hard to get right. Stylized games like to brush over these with so called "juice" - an overabundance of screen effects and particles. Which is why you'd get "chinese fireworks" in a lot of MMORPG combat systems. There are also a couple of modern platformers that are guilty of this. Unfortunately (?) effects like these are impossible for a first-person game, which is why the combat "feel" is down to very few factors.

Level Design - I'm always very careful designing levels. A set of long hallways can quickly turn an otherwise fine location into a drag. For Monomyth this is especially tricky, since it takes notes from two games that are level design wise completely different. One is thief - with largely open ended level design; the other one is Dark Souls, which follows a directed horseshoe method for designing locations. You can technically merge these concepts, by designing many interlinked horseshoes resulting in a sort of pseudo-open area. Or you make one open area and tack on the horseshoes. Or you do some other sort of combination, but the question is, whether the result can still carry over the strengths of its inspirations (all of which are highly abstract - cause, for example, what is "rewarding" exploration?). That in itself is experimental already, but fitting it into gameplay-driven design is another story - which is essentially necessary, cause otherwise you'll just have a nicely arranged set of hallways with nothing to do in them.

Performance - That's just a general issue, not so much of a concern. Problem is, my workstation is relatively old by now, so I always have trouble determining if performance issues are hardware or programming related. Luckily UE has some nifty profiling tools.

These are my personal main concerns. All of which I will have to address during the alpha.
 
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Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Do you design the levels in the engine itself(greyboxing or something similar) or outside of it first?(e.g., pencil and paper or software)
Did you make the UI art?
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
Design starts on paper. Then I greybox with a combination of modular level elements (pre-made hallways, platforms, etc) and geometry brushes (additive and subtractive 3D objects that let you "cut out" rooms within a great cube or some other encompassing shape). In the last step I transform these into static meshes. Towards the end geometry brushes become pretty tiresome, since the computation of intersections takes a while.
I haven't done that much with the alpha level, but I will probably modularize level sections more clearly during design in the future. I can still link them together later (according to that whole horseshoe/open level strategy).

I made the UI art in Substance Designer, which works out surprisingly well.
It's a graph-based image editor that allows you to link a sequence of image operations together and feed the resulting pipeline with some shape.
The result is then, for example, a background window or a button. You can make some pretty textures with that software. I'm rather unhappy with their recent decision to join adobe though.
 

Stormcrowfleet

Aeon & Star Interactive
Developer
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,028
I hadn't seen this game before. It's legit the game I have been the most pumped up for in YEARS.

I'm guessing this will be answered somewhere in the thread, but for lazy people like me: will you have this game on GOG, Steam or both ? What kind of release date are you looking at now ?

Thanks !
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
I will release on any platform that lets me.
Steam is a good community hub, but I have nothing against GoG, itch.io or even EGS.

Concerning the release date: If only I knew. I'm not targeting endless development cycles, but at the same time I won't hastily push for a release if it's just not ready yet. This will strongly depend on the alpha feedback.
There are also some delays thanks to my dayjob - especially lately. I have unfortunately not made the progress that I had hoped for earlier this year. But at least there are no development-related problems that would stall production.
 

BadOperaSinger

Barely Literate
Joined
Apr 29, 2019
Messages
3
Just learned about your project... It looks gorgeous!!! I just added it to my Steam wish list. Keep up the great work!
 

SophosTheWise

Cipher
Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
522
So, this seems like the best place to ask:

Guys, what are your favourite dungeon crawlers in this vein? Doesn't even have to be a proper RPG necessarily, I'm primarily hunting down the feeling those games elicit. That kind of feeling of adventure/travel/traversal/journey. Even better if they are a bit dark, mysterious, maybe even 'convoluted' like the Souls games.

I basically only know the games already listed as inspirations:

- Arx Fatalis
- Ultima Underworld
- King's Field

Also:
- The Souls series (I think the Dark Souls games are my favourite modern dungeon crawling games)

- In a broader sense/to a lesser extent one might also include:
- Dragon's Dogma
- Outworld

I also quite enjoyed Deadfall Adventures, even though it's a really mediocre indiana-jonesey FPS, but hey, sometimes even mediocre stuff ticks some of the right boxes.

Any ideas?
 

RatTower

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Messages
470
Dungeon crawlers like Underworld/Arx/KF are extremely rare for some reason.
Recently I stumbled over an old Nintendo DS game called "Fighting Fantasy: The Warlock of Firetop Mountain", which seems pretty alright. I haven't played it too far though.
Then there is Orcs & Elves for the DS. I haven't played that one but from what I've heard it was alright.

And then you got the real curiosities of this genre.

On Nokia N-Gage there was "Elder Scrolls: Travels - Shadowkey", which recycled a lot of morrowind assets, like the music.
The Travels series had two more games (Stormhold and Dawnstar) but those were far more basic titles.

Then there was King's Field EX and King's Field Mobile 1 & 2. And those three drive me nuts, cause there isn't even video material of them. Only these old FromSoftware websites:

http://www.fromcapsule.jp/kfex.html
http://www.fromcapsule.jp/kf.html
http://www.fromcapsule.jp/kfm2.html

These were on a couple of old japanese flip phones between 2000 and 2004.
From what I know, the games were downloaded through the phones' integrated market place - in other words they are impossible to find and/or emulate.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
For whatever reason the real-time combat dungeon crawlers in the style of those games never took off as a sub-genre. I guess they were drowned out by open world stuff.
 

V_K

Arcane
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you
Come to think of it, the only two types of dungeon crawlers that did actually take off as sub-genres are DM-clones and early Wizardries (in Japan). None of the others - Bradley's Wizardries, M&Ms, UUW - seem to have transcended the respective series (1 or 2 homages notwithstanding).
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,562
Location
Lusitânia
Dungeon crawlers like Underworld/Arx/KF are extremely rare for some reason.

I've said this before but I think games like Metroid, System Shock, Ultima Underworld, Dark Souls, Wizardry and even the classic RE games belong to the same genre/are pretty much the same kind of game.

Just think about it for a second.

You explore a big well designed level, or several interconnected levels. Which you usually backtrack.
You carefully manage your resources.
You solve puzzles or complete a task to either gain access to a new level, or an item, or some kind of upgrade - these last 2 can then grant you access to a unexplored location, or a change in your playstyle.
The main content can be completed rather quickly once you know it, with a lot of content being optional.
Combat is done mostly to drain your resources, change the pacing of the experience, lock certain areas/items/upgrades and overall to increase tension.
And finally these games rarely lend a hand or try to guide you.

So these games aren't that rare.
Although the dungeon setting is indeed rare.
 
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