Interview Massive Wasteland 2 Audio Interview with Brian Fargo and Nathan Long at Through the Aftermath

[Infinitron]

Don't act like proper rangers = no LA for you ("ending the story prematurely").

Becoming the Silent King = no Fortress of Regrets for you ("ending the story prematurely")

Josh was talking about games with some kind of systemic karma meter that measures your gameplay morality and punishes you based on that. He wasn't talking about the world directly responding to your immoral actions.

 

[Rake]

Do you realize what that even means

Wasteland 2's not going to have some kind of built in morality system that locks you out of content, like Ultima IV. It's purely scripted choice and consequence.

Yep, I'm afraid you fucked up this time. Better just forget you posted that.

Don't act like proper rangers = no LA for you ("ending the story prematurely").

The same shit with joining the slavers in Fallout 2. A false evil option that gives you no worthwhile benefits and a load of penalties.

It's in the amound of content that matters. If the slavers had more unique contend and some extra quests in New Reno and NCR, there wouldn't be a problem.
if instead of going to LA you can unlock alternative content, no problem

 

[Roguey]

Becoming the Silent King = no Fortress of Regrets for you ("ending the story prematurely")

You can immediately reload to seconds before that conversation.

Josh was talking about games with some kind of systemic karma meter that measures your gameplay morality and punishes you based on that. He wasn't talking about the world directly responding to your immoral actions.

No he wasn't, it applies to any game with moral choices.

 

[Infinitron]

No he wasn't, it applies to any game with moral choices.

Yes he was. What do you think "the game punished the player, not the world" actually means, Roguey? It means the player is punished by gameplay systems that force him to play a certain way, not by scripted story events ("the world").

 

[Roguey]

Yes he was. What do you think "the game punished the player, not the world" actually means, Roguey? It means the player is punished by gameplay systems that force him to play a certain way, not by scripted story events ("the world").

If you're given a choice between Good or Evil and the Evil option slaps you down, you're getting punished by the game. Josh isn't a fan of how saying the "right" thing can conflict with being the "right" character (any character that falls within their supported range of expression).

To use one of his examples, there's no gameplay benefit to role playing your character in DX:HR's dialogue battles since the game rewards choosing specific options that might not be in line with your character concept.

 

[Infinitron]

If you're given a choice between Good or Evil and the Evil option slaps you down, you're getting punished by the game.

Who says it'll slap you down? "Slapping down" is a matter of perspective. Slaughter a town, get all the loot, become filthy rich, have fun carving a bloody swathe across Arizona. Just don't expect to be able to work with the Rangers any more, and apparently they're the only one who can send you to California. Instead you'll presumably have some kind of alternate endgame.

To use one of his examples, there's no gameplay benefit to role playing your character in DX:HR's dialogue battles since the game rewards choosing specific options that might not be in line with your character concept.

Yep. The DX:HR dialogues are also highly systemized, so that doesn't actually refute my point.

 

[Roguey]

Who says it'll slap you down? "Slapping down" is a matter of perspective. Slaughter a town, get all the loot, become filthy rich, have fun carving a bloody swathe across Arizona. Just don't expect to be able to work with the Rangers any more, and apparently they're the only one who can send you to California. Instead you'll presumably have some kind of alternate endgame.

"Ending the story prematurely" suggests there is no alternate endgame. Who says I can't just say to hell with the rangers but go to LA anyway? Fargo apparently.

Yep. The DX:HR dialogues are also highly systemized, so that doesn't actually refute my point.

It's totally scripted.

 

[Infinitron]

"Ending the story prematurely" suggests there is no alternate endgame.

Those are my words, not Fargo's. I'm sorry if I've confused you.

Who says I can't just say to hell with the rangers but go to LA anyway? Fargo apparently.

Because that's the story he wants to tell. Now, you might think every RPG should have the design goal of allowing good players and evil players to experience the same overarching storyline, but that's a separate issue than "the game punishing you".

 

[Roguey]

"Ending the story prematurely" suggests there is no alternate endgame.

Those are my words, not Fargo's. I'm sorry if I've confused you.

Snrk. Is "non-standard game over" his words? Because that sounds a lot like "joining the master" i.e. a non-ending.

Because that's the story he wants to tell. You might think any RPG should have a design goal of allowing good players and evil players to experience the same basic storyline, but that's a separate issue.

I think cutting off an area because you were too bad is ridiculous. Now if that area is full of rangers and they're all hostile to you that's fine with me.

 

[Infinitron]

Snrk. Is "non-standard game over" his words? Because that sounds a lot like "joining the master" i.e. a non-ending.

I don't remember what words he uses. Listen to the last few minutes of the podcast, he mentions it there again.

I think cutting off an area because you were too bad is ridiculous.

It doesn't seem materially different from something like Witcher 2's dual second acts to me. Does it really matter what sort of choice it was that you made that cut off an area?

In any case, I would assume that you can still be a "bad" discreetly corrupt asshole and make it to LA. But the game world does need to react believably to the most outrageous beyond-the-pale acts.

 

[crawlkill]

The same shit with joining the slavers in Fallout 2. A false evil option that gives you no worthwhile benefits and a load of penalties.

hey, turns out aligning yourself with petty bullies who sell primitives and outright state they're going to brand the shit out of you when you join has consequences and isn't too lucrative a life choice. there's a reason "evil" choices get punished, and that reason is verisimilitude. the idea that your superhero god-character should be able to run through the world viciously tearing down society and still be able to progress in any meaningful way or expect support from anyone around him is an interesting one that suggests you don't live in a civilization.

 

[Jaesun]

Can we just rename this the shitposter forum?

 

[Infinitron]

Hey Roguey, watch this space!

Seems I wasn't entirely correct about him strictly referring to systems, but he's also not talking about situations where the game world logically responds to your heinous actions.

(don't you wish you weren't such an anonymity whore so you could converse with your idol? )

 

[Roguey]

Hey Roguey, watch this space!

Seems I wasn't entirely correct about him strictly referring to systems, but he's also not talking about situations where the game world logically responds to your heinous actions.

Well as I noted

I think cutting off an area because you were too bad is ridiculous. Now if that area is full of rangers and they're all hostile to you that's fine with me.

Think New Vegas. You can go around killing everyone you see and make everyone hostile to you on sight, cutting off access to a lot of quests, but you can still complete the game through Yes Man.

(don't you wish you weren't such an anonymity whore so you could converse with your idol? )

If I wanted to ask him questions I could just create new Formspring accounts each time.

 

[Irxy]

The game will feature non-standard game overs as a result of certain decisions. For instance, the party might not be sent to L.A. if they don't behave in a sufficiently Ranger-like manner, ending the story prematurely.

What is this crap, Ultima?!

At the beginning of the game, the Rangers will receive distress calls from two towns and the player will have to choose which one to assist. The state of both towns will change radically as a consequence of this choice.

Blind choices.

 

[Infinitron]

There's only room for one Roguey in this forum, partner

 

[l3loodAngel]

The same shit with joining the slavers in Fallout 2. A false evil option that gives you no worthwhile benefits and a load of penalties.

hey, turns out aligning yourself with petty bullies who sell primitives and outright state they're going to brand the shit out of you when you join has consequences and isn't too lucrative a life choice. there's a reason "evil" choices get punished, and that reason is verisimilitude. the idea that your superhero god-character should be able to run through the world viciously tearing down society and still be able to progress in any meaningful way or expect support from anyone around him is an interesting one that suggests you don't live in a civilization.

Nobody wants that dufus, except you and Fargo. People want to have other alternatives, like choosing different sides and facing consequences other than GAME OVER. Like you know, C&C...

 

[I_am_Ian]

Perhaps there is nothing left to do if the rangers do not send you to California. As a rogue ranger without assistance, traveling to California may be impossible. The option to become kicked out of the Desert Rangers and assume some sort of renegade role and continue to explore the game world is probably outside the scope of this game considering the budget.

 

[Infinitron]

Perhaps there is nothing left to do if the rangers do not send you to California. As a rogue ranger without assistance, traveling to California may be impossible. The option to become kicked out of the Desert Rangers and assume some sort of renegade role and continue to explore the game world is probably outside the scope of this game considering the budget.

My impression is that the game's story will be shortened, but the game itself will not necessarily end, and there might even be an alternate "stub endgame".

 

[I_am_Ian]

I see. What gives you that impression? I haven't listened to the podcast yet.

 

[Infinitron]

I see. What gives you that impression? I haven't listened to the podcast yet.

The podcast, plus bits and pieces of information that I've heard in other places. Again, listen to the end of the podcast, where Brian talks about this stuff again. He seems pretty proud of it. I don't think he's talking about an "LOL, YOU LOST TOO MANY RANGER VIRTUE POINTS, GAME OVER" screen.

 

[crawlkill]

People want to have other alternatives, like choosing different sides and facing consequences other than GAME OVER. Like you know, C&C...

Y'mean like signing on with slavers and having the game recognize that you've done so all over the place, and having that decision have consequences? Or do you just want them to be -nice- consequences? You want the game to congratulate you for every dumbfuck thing you do?

 

[Rake]

People want to have other alternatives, like choosing different sides and facing consequences other than GAME OVER. Like you know, C&C...

Y'mean like signing on with slavers and having the game recognize that you've done so all over the place, and having that decision have consequences? Like unlock other quests, work against and bring down the Rangers etc.

Yes.

 

[l3loodAngel]

People want to have other alternatives, like choosing different sides and facing consequences other than GAME OVER. Like you know, C&C...

Y'mean like signing on with slavers and having the game recognize that you've done so all over the place, and having that decision have consequences? Or do you just want them to be -nice- consequences? You want the game to congratulate you for every dumbfuck thing you do?

Oh, you become a slaver? GG play nice man. Oh, you killed some dickhead? GG play nice. There is a difference between having consequences and having no consequences just game over. As gg is not a consequence in this instance, but an instant loss.

 

[crawlkill]

Oh, you become a slaver? GG play nice man.

Now rest a cool washcloth on your forehead, go play Fallout 2 and cut off your balls when you realize you have no fucking idea what you're talking about.