Mannan in KotOR - The Lawyer's Planet

[oscar]

Thinking back this actually had some pretty good C&C and grey morality. The court case where you have to defend the old guy's friend was especially good. With a fair bit of evidence you can get him off free (he's a Republic war hero whose accused of murdering some Sith spy who slept with him) but to find the real truth (he really did kill her) you have to hack the Republic's embassy (requiring a surprisingly high computer skill). Presenting this evidence doesn't gain you much more XP except the satisfaction of serving justice (but at the lost of a great soldier).

The underground base also presented you with a "lesser of two evils" type dilemma. Detonating the base means the Republic (already very low on cash) has wasted a fortune while saving it means the kolto supply (required for medpacks) is poisoned (what means neither side gets access as Mannan is selling to both sides).

Having to defend your actions in court after smashing up the Sith base on the planet was a nice jab at the reckless destruction you inflict in most RPG's (and if you didn't find any dirt on the Sith before you left well tough shit you get sent to court and executed).

Getting banned and kicked off the planet (whether you've done your quests or not) if you piss off the authorities too much was also pretty good.

I thought it was a competently-done area story wise and more "grey" then anything in KotOR II (what while not exactly popular either does get more praise then the first).

 

[cogar48]

Thinking back this actually had some pretty good C&C and grey morality.
it was a competently-done area story wise and more "grey" then anything in KotOR II (what while not exactly popular either does get more praise then the first).

No.

 

[Helton]

Dude all I remember from that planet is THE FUCKING POD RACING! Fuck many-games. Matter fact, fuck them all.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Thinking back this actually had some pretty good C&C and grey morality. The court case where you have to defend the old guy's friend was especially good. With a fair bit of evidence you can get him off free (he's a Republic war hero whose accused of murdering some Sith spy who slept with him) but to find the real truth (he really did kill her) you have to hack the Republic's embassy (requiring a surprisingly high computer skill). Presenting this evidence doesn't gain you much more XP except the satisfaction of serving justice (but at the lost of a great soldier).

The underground base also presented you with a "lesser of two evils" type dilemma. Detonating the base means the Republic (already very low on cash) has wasted a fortune while saving it means the kolto supply (required for medpacks) is poisoned (what means neither side gets access as Mannan is selling to both sides).

Having to defend your actions in court after smashing up the Sith base on the planet was a nice jab at the reckless destruction you inflict in most RPG's (and if you didn't find any dirt on the Sith before you left well tough shit you get sent to court and executed).

Getting banned and kicked off the planet (whether you've done your quests or not) if you piss off the authorities too much was also pretty good.

I thought it was a competently-done area story wise and more "grey" then anything in KotOR II (what while not exactly popular either does get more praise then the first).

So....what were the consequences of your choices in the court triak, and in detonating the base? I mean, you get told that the Republic will have wasted tonnes of short-supply cash, and that they'll lose a good soldier in the trial, but I don't remember either of those things having any impact on the rest of the game. Does the soldier help you later, or something like that, if he survives? Does the republic manage to provide you with backup later on if they're more cashed up?

To me it just seemed like typical choice with no consequence. Not even a cosmetic consequence, ala Deus Ex, with later characters being replaced by different ones with the same dialogue, let alone red shirts/blue shirts scenarios.

I dig the 'getting kicked off the planet thing' - now THAT gives a consequence, as you can't return to the place. Same with not having enough dirt on the Sith. But I can't think of anything that the trial quest or blowing up the building changes other than a line of dialogue at the end of the quest-chain.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

fuck the slow-walking with sharks part of that level

 

[commie]

Thinking back this actually had some pretty good C&C and grey morality. The court case where you have to defend the old guy's friend was especially good. With a fair bit of evidence you can get him off free (he's a Republic war hero whose accused of murdering some Sith spy who slept with him) but to find the real truth (he really did kill her) you have to hack the Republic's embassy (requiring a surprisingly high computer skill). Presenting this evidence doesn't gain you much more XP except the satisfaction of serving justice (but at the lost of a great soldier).

The underground base also presented you with a "lesser of two evils" type dilemma. Detonating the base means the Republic (already very low on cash) has wasted a fortune while saving it means the kolto supply (required for medpacks) is poisoned (what means neither side gets access as Mannan is selling to both sides).

Having to defend your actions in court after smashing up the Sith base on the planet was a nice jab at the reckless destruction you inflict in most RPG's (and if you didn't find any dirt on the Sith before you left well tough shit you get sent to court and executed).

Getting banned and kicked off the planet (whether you've done your quests or not) if you piss off the authorities too much was also pretty good.

I thought it was a competently-done area story wise and more "grey" then anything in KotOR II (what while not exactly popular either does get more praise then the first).

So....what were the consequences of your choices in the court triak, and in detonating the base? I mean, you get told that the Republic will have wasted tonnes of short-supply cash, and that they'll lose a good soldier in the trial, but I don't remember either of those things having any impact on the rest of the game. Does the soldier help you later, or something like that, if he survives? Does the republic manage to provide you with backup later on if they're more cashed up?

To me it just seemed like typical choice with no consequence. Not even a cosmetic consequence, ala Deus Ex, with later characters being replaced by different ones with the same dialogue, let alone red shirts/blue shirts scenarios.

I dig the 'getting kicked off the planet thing' - now THAT gives a consequence, as you can't return to the place. Same with not having enough dirt on the Sith. But I can't think of anything that the trial quest or blowing up the building changes other than a line of dialogue at the end of the quest-chain.

Well the examples provided of real C&C shows that Bio have the ability to do it. The bits that don't lead anywhere are no different than side-quests in 95% of RPG's anyway. The OP would have included them in 'grey morality' part of his post rather than true C&C and again it was a pretty good job by Bio when compared to their usual tripe.

Regardless of what people think about KOTOR, being able to get the Wookie to kill the sniveling brat at the end and then revenging yourself against all your retarded companions was one of the greatest things anyone ever allowed you to do in an RPG with shitty companions, later copied in a lackluster way in JE.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

fuck the slow-walking with sharks part of that level

 

[sirfink]

"Xksrkl skrukl krowlk krushklc!"

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Oh god the vomiting fish-talk

 

[Xor]

Thinking back this actually had some pretty good C&C and grey morality.
it was a competently-done area story wise and more "grey" then anything in KotOR II (what while not exactly popular either does get more praise then the first).

No.

In order to truly appreciate the brilliance of that area you'd have to play KOTOR 7 times.







But yeah, I think I quit around when I started that level. Also, the entire premise of KOTOR2 is that the Jedi suck and aren't anything like the paragons of good that are portrayed in KOTOR1. FFS, just watch this fucking scene.

 

[oscar]

What I liked was that for alot of those quests you could make strong arguments for choosing either option (e.g the defending the war hero one forcing the player to choose between idealism or pragmatism).

Yeah alright it doesn't mean shit game wise (I think medpac prices go up if you poison the fish thing to save the facility and some people complain about medical supplies getting scarce) but it's far superior to "STOP EVIL-DOER, NO REWARD NECESSARY MAM +1 LS POINT"/"HEHE IM BEATING INNOCENT PEOPLE UP AND DEMANDING MORE MONEY FROM QUEST GIVERS +1 DS POINT" morality (that plagues the rest of the game).

 

[KalosKagathos]

How the hell is choosing between letting a murderer go and presenting evidence against him "morally gray"? Just because he isn't a typical BioWare mustache-twirling puppy rapist villain doesn't make him any less of a murderer.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

The underground base also presented you with a "lesser of two evils" type dilemma.

No it wasn't. You were given a choice between helping a crazy man who hates the environment kill nature or helping a friendly lady save the ocean from evil industry. And then you got good or evil points based on what you chose. There's no ambiguity here, especially since the game makes it very obvious that killing the shark was the wrong choice if you do it.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

Just because he isn't a typical BioWare mustache-twirling puppy rapist villain doesn't make him any less of a murderer.

Dude, no reason to bring real-world politics into this.


Besides, everyone knows that if you throw youself in with a good cause, you can rape and pillage anyone you want.
And, IIRC, the one he'd killed was a combatant and a Sith spy, the faction they're at war with. It may be in violation of rules of engagement to kill an enemy on a neutral ground, but wouldn't call it murder. It's sabotaging your faction's standing with a supplier of crucial resources and, potentially, costing the war. The only moral dilemma, here, is whether to tell the truth and shaft the Republic; or lie and piss on the Sith.
Both of which are delightfully and completely inconsequencial in the game.

 

[Forest Dweller]

How the hell is choosing between letting a murderer go and presenting evidence against him "morally gray"? Just because he isn't a typical BioWare mustache-twirling puppy rapist villain doesn't make him any less of a murderer.

It's not morally grey because the Republic is at war with the Sith and the Sith are trying to conquer everyone. Calling such an act "murder" is laughable.

And it's amazing how this very basic concept is not grasped by anyone else in the game.

 

[Zhirzzh]

Well, the planet is neutral. Also, he was sticking his dick in her, which makes it a gray issue.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Also even Fallouts consequences are sometimes only some end game narration screens, so criticizing not feeling the consequences of your choices is not very fair.

 

[oscar]

How the hell is choosing between letting a murderer go and presenting evidence against him "morally gray"? Just because he isn't a typical BioWare mustache-twirling puppy rapist villain doesn't make him any less of a murderer.

Because he's a war hero. And doing so discredits the Republic further amongst the locals who are already beginning to favour the Sith.

there's no ambiguity here, especially since the game makes it very obvious that killing the shark was the wrong choice if you do it.

You don't know this until afterwards (they did decently in not painting the "kill the shark guy" as some evil businessmen, they just portrayed him as more rash and panicked). And the Republic isn't exactly understanding of your actions.

 

[KalosKagathos]

It's not morally grey because the Republic is at war with the Sith and the Sith are trying to conquer everyone. Calling such an act "murder" is laughable.

The murder happens on a neutral planet. Both the victim and the murderer are random tourists, as far as its laws are concerned.

Also even Fallouts consequences are sometimes only some end game narration screens, so criticizing not feeling the consequences of your choices is not very fair.

And if it can be used to criticize Fallout, it's just not a valid criticism, right?

Because he's a war hero. And doing so discredits the Republic further amongst the locals who are already beginning to favour the Sith.

Right, and because Republic war heroes can do no wrong by definition, any evidence to the contrary must be erased.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Regardless of what people think about KOTOR, being able to get the Wookie to kill the sniveling brat at the end and then revenging yourself against all your retarded companions was one of the greatest things anyone ever allowed you to do in an RPG with shitty companions, later copied in a lackluster way in JE.

Oh hell yeah, I'll concede that one any day. That bit was awesome. The one thing that could have improved it would be if the manipulating of the wookie's life-debt was something that you had to work towards. It was still hilarious, but there wasn't a lot of integration with the game - it was just a dialogue option, albeit a fucking awesome one (making the wookie kill his best friend / annoying brat, just after killing the other 2 jedi).

It would have been fucking amazing if that turn of events required you to subtly 'suss out' which of your companions you might be able to swing, you had to actually trick the wookie into the lifedebt so you could use him to kill her later - basically if that scene was the payoff of a plan that you could execute, rather than the automatic 'evil path'.

 

[Azrael the cat]

It's not morally grey because the Republic is at war with the Sith and the Sith are trying to conquer everyone. Calling such an act "murder" is laughable.

The murder happens on a neutral planet. Both the victim and the murderer are random tourists, as far as its laws are concerned.

Also even Fallouts consequences are sometimes only some end game narration screens, so criticizing not feeling the consequences of your choices is not very fair.

And if it can be used to criticize Fallout, it's just not a valid criticism, right?

Because he's a war hero. And doing so discredits the Republic further amongst the locals who are already beginning to favour the Sith.

Right, and because Republic war heroes can do no wrong by definition, any evidence to the contrary must be erased.

Meh. I can see where he was coming from. Some folks might come in with a 'greater good' mentality (e.g. the war is tight enough that this one planet with its source of kolta might actually swing the war, the sith are destroying entire planets and committing genocide en masse, hence the decision to turn a blind eye to the murder rather than risk weakening the republic's position). It's obviously supposed to be the dark side option, but it's plausible that someone well-intentioned might still choose it.

Hell, in the cold war democratic governments propped up murderous dictatorships and tolerated criminals all the time for the sake of preventing a worse evil (or so they thought - at least some of those choices returned to bite them in the ass - putting Sadam Hussein in power, and arming the groups that later formed the Taliban). Not saying that it's right - and in the star wars universe, with its binary morality, it is very clearly 'wrong' - but there's been plenty of reasonable and well-meaning people who have done the same.

 

[oscar]

But this murder's court ruling and the public backlash could be the difference between the planet responsible for the production of all medical supplies deciding to solely trade with the Sith (what many of the councillors want) or keeping neutral. The game doesn't (if I remember correctly) give you dark side points for neglecting to present the evidence.

 

[Mastermind]

But yeah, I think I quit around when I started that level. Also, the entire premise of KOTOR2 is that the Jedi suck and aren't anything like the paragons of good that are portrayed in KOTOR1. FFS, just watch this fucking scene.

Kotor2 is what happens when Fagellone is released from his chains, relieved of his ball gag and let loose upon a game studio.

"The character must be someone who can give voice to shit that bothers me or is something I really, really want to write about. Kreia is my mouthpiece for everything I hate about the Force, and then I let her rant."

 

[Mastermind]

Right, and because Republic war heroes can do no wrong by definition, any evidence to the contrary must be erased.

Damn you're stupid. And I don't throw that word around lightly (well, I do, but I don't usually mean it). He's saying that if a Republic war hero is revealed to be a murderer the population will turn further against the republic and side with the sith. It has nothing to do with "republic war heroes can do no wrong by definition" or whatever other hippy bullshit is going through your undoubtedly minuscule brain.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

Also even Fallouts consequences are sometimes only some end game narration screens, so criticizing not feeling the consequences of your choices is not very fair.

And if it can be used to criticize Fallout, it's just not a valid criticism, right?

I am just saying that Fallout is part of the holy trinity and handling of consequences really compares in this case (presenting a logical outcome of your actions, but not incorporating it in the game). Of course we all want to see outcomes directly in the game and be gameplay relevant, but its a difference to say that it totally sucked without them.