Mannan in KotOR - The Lawyer's Planet

[Vaarna_Aarne]

To destroy something for the sake of it is evil. The force is not evil. It's the same fuckin' bullshit people use tod estroy guns. Guns do not kill people. People do. The force does not cause harm, the people who use force do. People still have free will.

Moron. Wanting to destroy something, some inanimate and non-sentient object, is not evil.

And comparing the Force to guns. Let me know when guns actively seduce you to the Dark Side.

LOlolllol fucking roofles, faggot.

And when guns start dictating actions of people who aren't even near one or affected by one in any manner.

Again, "there is no coincidence, there is only the Force."

 

[Mangoose]

I mean I agree that she is one-sided and not very "deep." But she does take a morally controversial stance, similar to gun control, instead of the black/white typical Force division. To say she is evil is just retarded.

 

[Jasede]

I am so tired of explaining why, but Kreia is the best character in any game, ever. That's all, please troll.

Edit: There comes a time where it becomes futile to explain your beliefs over and over again. Some things we just know to be true or false, and we cannot be too afraid to admit that we might be wrong. Maybe we are wrong, but the mere act of choice, of belief however you may explain it, are enough to propel you towards something.

I think I wrote much about Kreia before. I cannot remember, it has been years ago. But in her, I can see Avellone's greatest effort and his greatest feat. She refines the ideas from Torment further, creating a real character. A believable, larger than life figure that quests for truth, just like your character should. A real friend and mentor, and a real enemy and threat because there cannot be more than one truth. And even when you kill her, she still has won.

And that's the lesson KOTOR 2 can teach you- through thought tempered with experience you can reach a knowledge that no one can take away from you; and through that knowledge, you can finally see the stars, be you blind or deaf.

Now please do make fun of me for my shallow diatribe, but you know what? It won't change a thing. Like a stubborn Bioware fanboy, I will never be able to see that character as anything but the pinnacle of RPG characters. The only flaw KOTOR 2 had was that you weren't allowed to side with her- I know they had planned you could, but sadly that was never implemented. The best end for the game would have been Kreia and the Exile following Revan into the Outer Rim, searching further for the truth that tradition, ignorance and war has taken from the galaxy.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Speaking of the final confrontation with Kreia, that's a phenomenal scene as well. Most of all because she is HAPPY you defeated her, and finds a sort of peace when you do try to "save" her.

 

[Mangoose]

I think one reason Kreia does not seem deep is that you can't really argue with her to any consequence nor influence her in any way. You can disagree with her, but she'll just say she's right and go on her way. She's a fully developed character, and that's her downside - unlike a weaker, younger character, you don't have the opportunity to influence her and watch her develop in reaction to stigma.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea, actually it's her trying to influence you for the most part. She really doesn't concede a point to you until at the end of her life.

 

[Kz3r0]

I am so tired of explaining why, but Kreia is the best character in any game, ever. That's all, please troll.

Edit: There comes a time where it becomes futile to explain your beliefs over and over again. Some things we just know to be true or false, and we cannot be too afraid to admit that we might be wrong. Maybe we are wrong, but the mere act of choice, of belief however you may explain it, are enough to propel you towards something.

I think I wrote much about Kreia before. I cannot remember, it has been years ago. But in her, I can see Avellone's greatest effort and his greatest feat. She refines the ideas from Torment further, creating a real character. A believable, larger than life figure that quests for truth, just like your character should. A real friend and mentor, and a real enemy and threat because there cannot be more than one truth. And even when you kill her, she still has won.

And that's the lesson KOTOR 2 can teach you- through thought tempered with experience you can reach a knowledge that no one can take away from you; and through that knowledge, you can finally see the stars, be you blind or deaf.

Now please do make fun of me for my shallow diatribe, but you know what? It won't change a thing. Like a stubborn Bioware fanboy, I will never be able to see that character as anything but the pinnacle of RPG characters. The only flaw KOTOR 2 had was that you weren't allowed to side with her- I know they had planned you could, but sadly that was never implemented. The best end for the game would have been Kreia and the Exile following Revan into the Outer Rim, searching further for the truth that tradition, ignorance and war has taken from the galaxy.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

The Force is neither good nor evil, since it benefits both the Jedi and the Sith.

And a lot of other creatures in that universe, including other sentients not affiliated with the Jedi/Sith.

And again, people can live fine without the Force.

People can live in caves on raw meat and water, without a one coherent thought in their skulls, as well. Wouldn't that be wonderful.
And, as been said, "people" wouldn't be the only ones affected by absense of the Force.

So how is getting rid of the Force evil? It's like saying atheism is evil. Wtf?

As you've said yourself, Force is neither good or evil. In essense, it's a supreme deity, but actually real for that universe. So, yes, killing the one god that benefits a lot of creatures is evil.

Now please do make fun of me for my shallow diatribe, but you know what? It won't change a thing. Like a stubborn Bioware fanboy, I will never be able to see that character as anything but the pinnacle of RPG characters.

There'd be no point to it - we'd be talking about two completely different characters. You have an image of a character I actually like, so if you got something positive out of the experience - good for you.
On the other hand, the character that actually was in the game was p. shallow and - let's say - misguided. That they're both named Kreia is just a coincidence. So, likewise, don't be surprised that I don't sing it dithyrambs. Cool?

 

[Mangoose]

People can live in caves on raw meat and water, without a one coherent thought in their skulls, as well. Wouldn't that be wonderful.

What a strawman. This is such a flawed analogy because the only beings that utilize the Force to any practical benefit are the Jedi and the Sith. The general populace is neutered, just like the Exile was - aka they lose nothing. The analogy of gun control is the best, even though it was misapplied at first mention.

 

[Azrael the cat]

As you've said yourself, Force is neither good or evil. In essense, it's a supreme deity, but actually real for that universe. So, yes, killing the one god that benefits a lot of creatures is evil.

Not at all. You aren't just killing 'the one god that benefits a lot of creatures' - you're also killing 'the one devil that torments a lot of creatures', and which seems to regularly cause as much harm as the 'god' does good - espcially given that the universe is regularly plagued by their wars which tend to impact upon even those who would desire neutrality.

Besides, the idea of a 'real' god isn't inherently good, even if that god was benevolent. There is something slavelike about acknowledgement of a god, especially one, like in the Star Wars universe, that actually limits one's own free will. It's morally plausible that people might reasonably wish to be rid of a benevolent god for the sake of free will and self-determination.

Add to that that in the SW universe light/dark sides are intrinsically linked, so that the 'god' brings with it an equally powerful 'devil', and freedom without either starts to look very appealing.

Edit: damn I suck at typing. I didn't mean to put the 'retarded-face' in at all - apologies to anyone who thought it was aimed at them.

 

[roll-a-die]

People can live in caves on raw meat and water, without a one coherent thought in their skulls, as well. Wouldn't that be wonderful.

What a strawman. This is such a flawed analogy because the only beings that utilize the Force to any practical benefit are the Jedi and the Sith. The general populace is neutered, just like the Exile was - aka they lose nothing. The analogy of gun control is the best, even though it was misapplied at first mention.

AERGH! YE HAVE INJURED MY BRIAN GYOOD SYR! PLAES CAES THIS NONSENCE MAKERING.

Every being is a part of the force, every being affects it. Every action echoes out through the force, the only thing being force SENSITIVE(IE like Sith Assassin dude in KotOR2) is that it INTENSIFIES the reactions and allows PERCEPTION OF THE THOSE ECHOES. Force sensitivity is basically the manifestion and ability to manipulate the forces that intertwine and connect all things.

If no one but Jedi could use or be connected to the force, powers like the Mind Trick wouldn't WORK. Because there would be no way for the force to effect them. THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE YUZANG VONG AND THE EXILE SCARY. They are living scars, outside, and unaffected by the force by their very nature. This is what made the Jedi send the Exile away, they likely couldn't fucking mindwipe or even mindread him, because he was severed from the very material that makes up the universe as the Jedi know it. So they sent him off with false sympathy to live a FUCKING HALF LIFE on the fringe of the universe. Until Kreia allowed him somehow connect to the force again.

Think of the force this way, unplug your internet, you can't get online, but neither can anyone online get to you. People separated without the force CAN'T, LET ME REPEAT THAT CAN, NOT, AFFECT THE WORLD IN ANY SIGNIFICANT MANNER, WITHOUT AFFECTING THOSE WITH FORCE SENSITIVITY. To render the force null, to kill it, would be to eliminate change, and kill out all life eventually, bar the Yuzang Vong and similar beings. IE, twisted fuckheads locked in stasis.

Thank you and fuck off.

 

[Mangoose]

Rambling on with personal interpretations about Star Wars with no evidence.

Every being is a part of the force, every being affects it.

Or so it is believed. In addition to different writers having their own interpretations, even different factions within the setting have differing philosophies of the Force.

To render the force null, to kill it, would be to eliminate change, and kill out all life eventually, bar the Yuzang Vong and similar beings. IE, twisted fuckheads locked in stasis.

Given that all cases of severing the Force were non-lethal, losing the Force does not kill any life eventually.

 

[Angthoron]

In a sense, the ending, or rather, Kreia's acceptance and "happiness" of being stopped is somewhat of a recurring theme with the team, though not explicitly. However, if we think of it, first, you have TNO defying the gods, and then finding solace in becoming restored and, in a sense, punished by the gods and their rules - or given a chance to redeem himself, depending on how you want to read it; you also have Trias following a similar theme, and in a way, Ravel.

Then you have MotB's Dove, and once again we find a theme of defying the gods and their ways. If we look at Arcanum, there are some similar-ish elements of the plot going on as well, what with the villain trying to defy the rules; Bloodlines, which despite Gehenna actually occuring thanks to WW initiative, tried to convey the sense of the player being played to defy major clans...

As you can see, Kreia's theme fits the pattern - she defies the rules given by the Force, issues it a challenge; in a way it's a conflict of an agnostic trying to call down divine retribution/justice - her crime against the "faith" is actually huge - she basically destroys most of the Force users, but in order for the challenge to actually work, she leaves one loophole for the Force to manifest its will. In the end, she doesn't meet the player character; in her mind, she meets the Force itself, either forgiving or punishing - she meets her God in person.

This is one of the possible reasons why she would be so happy about her defeat; this is why she loves the player so much despite the player doing things she doesn't want him to - once the Force comes back to the PC, every action he commits is, to her, guided by the Force. Of course, to her, it's also a struggle of the Force and of free will and upbringing, so, once again, an agnostic's quest of defiance and a desire to see her God act.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

This is such a flawed analogy because the only beings that utilize the Force to any practical benefit are the Jedi and the Sith.

Uh-huh.
And how is the analogy flawed? You don't need anything beyond that for survival, so why do you want it? Not because you've come to appreciate having something beyond just physical existance, by chance?

The analogy of gun control is the best

Wouldn't gun control be the better analogy for gun control? Since it's the cognitive abilities and the attitude to exert one's will upon their surroundings that are at the root of butthurt, what difference will destroying the Force make for the inferior? They'll just be dominated by other means. Ones that have and offer nothing beyond their primitive function.

And, tell me, who is Kreia to decide for everyone and everything that they should be neutered? A butthurt bitch exerting her will?

 

[roll-a-die]

Rambling on with personal interpretations about Star Wars with no evidence.

Every being is a part of the force, every being affects it.

Or so it is believed. In addition to different writers having their own interpretations, even different factions within the setting have differing philosophies of the Force.

To render the force null, to kill it, would be to eliminate change, and kill out all life eventually, bar the Yuzang Vong and similar beings. IE, twisted fuckheads locked in stasis.

Given that all cases of severing the Force were non-lethal, losing the Force does not kill any life eventually.

Sever force is not complete severing despite it's misleading name. It's more of a rendering it inert or, blocking it, severing the flow of it, not making it outside, not separating it fully from the force. What happened to the Exile and the Yuzang Vong, is being rendered outside the force. To be rendered deaf to it's call, to be rendered unfeeling, it's like, an appendectomy rather than a vasectomy, the removal of an organ rather than the snipping or blocking of a vein. Given that the force is life, rendering the force inert would eventually kill the populous if only by the sheer stasis of it. Think of it like being suddenly rendered deaf, blind and tasteless. Again the majority of people COULD go on, but you'd be stuck in a universe that would never change. The force is what allows love to form, it's also what allows temptation to appear. It manifests itself in connections, and in manipulations. It's what unifies the universe, it's what allows people to be bound together.

Some articles on Wookiepedia for you to read, since you seem to love it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unifying_Force
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Force

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

Then, wouldn't desires be the preferred focus of control they so desire?

And you're reading too far into the 'god' metaphor. SW's Force has no will of its own. By it, users take from it what they can, just as with everything else without it.

 

[Mangoose]

And how is the analogy flawed? You don't need anything beyond that for survival, so why do you want it? Not because you've come to appreciate having something beyond just physical existance, by chance?

Because taking away the Force doesn't reduce the general majority to raw meat and water. In fact, it doesn't affect the general majority at all.

Wouldn't gun control be the better analogy for gun control?

No, because then it's not a fucking analogy.

Some articles on Wookiepedia for you to read, since you seem to love it.

even different factions within the setting have differing philosophies of the Force.

Herp.

Now, link one shred of evidence that specifically states the life requires the Force. One. Not that the Force is in all living beings, but that a person will die without the Force.

 

[roll-a-die]

Despite great controversy regarding the truth of the Force in-universe, the matter was clearly settled in Wizards of the Coast's soucebooks, such as the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook and the Jedi Academy Training Manual, which established that the Jedi Order has the best understanding of the Force among all other Force traditions, and the Jedi way of classifying and viewing the Force is the correct one, as intended by the creators of Star Wars licenses.

The Jedi of course belive it's quite nessacary for life, and for the universe. Simply put, the force is the universe, the force is life, the force is the collective manifestation of those things. To exist outside it, is to exist as a fragment, to exist outside of standard life. The force is life to the point where if masses of life are killed, than it sends a fucking wounded scream through the force, that all force sensitives can perceive.

I'd quote actual passages from the WoC books, and from a guide to the force, but I don't currently have them out, and I think they are still in my Stanford apartment.

Now fuck off.

 

[Mastermind]

I am so tired of explaining why, but Kreia is the best character in any game, ever. That's all, please troll.

Edit: There comes a time where it becomes futile to explain your beliefs over and over again. Some things we just know to be true or false, and we cannot be too afraid to admit that we might be wrong. Maybe we are wrong, but the mere act of choice, of belief however you may explain it, are enough to propel you towards something.

I think I wrote much about Kreia before. I cannot remember, it has been years ago. But in her, I can see Avellone's greatest effort and his greatest feat. She refines the ideas from Torment further, creating a real character. A believable, larger than life figure that quests for truth, just like your character should. A real friend and mentor, and a real enemy and threat because there cannot be more than one truth. And even when you kill her, she still has won.

And that's the lesson KOTOR 2 can teach you- through thought tempered with experience you can reach a knowledge that no one can take away from you; and through that knowledge, you can finally see the stars, be you blind or deaf.

Now please do make fun of me for my shallow diatribe, but you know what? It won't change a thing. Like a stubborn Bioware fanboy, I will never be able to see that character as anything but the pinnacle of RPG characters. The only flaw KOTOR 2 had was that you weren't allowed to side with her- I know they had planned you could, but sadly that was never implemented. The best end for the game would have been Kreia and the Exile following Revan into the Outer Rim, searching further for the truth that tradition, ignorance and war has taken from the galaxy.

The barbed cock of Avellone is strong in this one.

 

[Multiple Sarcasm]

Because taking away the Force doesn't reduce the general majority to raw meat and water. In fact, it doesn't affect the general majority at all.

The-ere we go, "general majority". So, do you like you entertainment popamole or of a more cerebral nature? 'Cause you know what the general majority wants.

Wouldn't gun control be the better analogy for gun control?

No, because then it's not a fucking analogy.

This is where you assume you've successfully proven your point by dodging every argument and offering none of your own, right?

 

[treave]

Kotor 2 was pretty good at pretending it was very deep.

Butthurt Biowhore detected.

Butthurt Obshitian junkie detected.

A weirdly familiar exchange.

 

[Mangoose]

Fuck this I'm not arguing Star Wars lore.

 

[Mangoose]

Fuck this I'm not arguing Star Wars lore.

 

[racofer]

Fuck this Mangoose is not arguing Star Wars lore.

 

[Mastermind]

Kreia(and by connection, Fagellone)'s obsessive hatred of the force is pure herp derp retardedness only a codextard could mistake for deep and well developed. It's like hating gravity. Only Fuckellone could build an entire game around such a stupid idea and only a complete fucking retard would find it anything short of an insult to the player's intelligence and cultured sensibilities. Anyone who likes this pile of shit should surrender their standard issue monocle on the spot.