Making EXP exist in universe?

[DraQ]

The idea of an experience system that works in an artificial sense should model the real world idea of the proper application of acquired knowledge over time.

The problem is that such system is too coarse, and if the game doesn't use artificially delimited classes, too permissive to be useful in a cRPG.

If a game is still going to use it rather than implementing some better balanced derivative of use-based, it might as well do something interesting with it.

 

[Nael]

The idea of an experience system that works in an artificial sense should model the real world idea of the proper application of acquired knowledge over time.

The problem is that such system is too coarse, and if the game doesn't use artificially delimited classes, too permissive to be useful in a cRPG.

If a game is still going to use it rather than implementing some better balanced derivative of use-based, it might as well do something interesting with it.

That's why I wondered "aloud" why I haven't ever seen the idea of skill atrophy if there is skill growth in these use-based systems. It seems to me it would solve a lot of issues.

Not to mention that laws of diminished returns solves a lot of the higher end benefit for focused studies. In otherwords there comes a point where technology use should play a more important role in success than pure skill. A world class swordsman with a butterknife is still better than you or I with a butterknife, but if we pick up a shield and longsword, only marginally so. If that swordsman refuses to ever pick up a longsword again but continues to fight with a butterknife he should eventually begin to excel at fighting with a butterknife and return one day to slit our throats with it. His longsword skills will begin to deteriorate to a certain level, but muscle memory should retain some of it if he were to someday change his mind.

I dunno. Maybe most of this is just rot, but I figured I'd chime in anyway.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Are we talking about experience in the realworld sense here (Memories/skills of how to perform a task) or in the game sense (simply a measure of power.)

The later has been done a lot, usually in the form of some sort of soul sucking in an action rpg type game. There's nothing really wrong with that, but it's bland and uninteresting by itself. + x% abstract power doesn't become atmospheric and cool because it glows red and someone calls it 'soulpower' once. Though with enough relevance to the world and story it could be interesting (Having to share it with others too weak to gather it themselves, it being necessary for survival, slowly having side effects and repercussions of it's use made known to you, etc.)

The former would be a more interesting idea, because then different people would have different experiences to consume. Butchering a dozen wizards won't give you an inkling of how to swordfight or pick locks. Purely from a gameplay point of view, this gives you reason to make decisions about which people to target, assuming you can't just suck the souls out of everything to become godlike. There can also be the facet of their experiences tainting your own moral character. After absorbing the experiences of a band of murderous highwaymen, just gutting a random stranger for his pocketchange may start to look appealing (But if the stranger is a saint you might swing in the other direction afterwards.)

 

[Nael]

Are we talking about experience in the realworld sense here (Memories/skills of how to perform a task) or in the game sense (simply a measure of power.)

Well, in respect to the OP I would say I'm talking about "Memories". In a more immediate sense though. What has the victim recently been doing? Where has he been? I mean, if consuming a victim netted you all of the experience possible from the consumption you'd just stick to old people and that'd be about it. Talk about uninteresting. You might as well call your game "Highlander" at that point.

Nah, I think "Psychic Vampire" is more appropriate.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The highlander concept becomes a lot more interesting though, when they aren't immortal and can steal from anything, but not at will. There'd be little point in stealing the experiences of an old cobbler for example, compared to a young champion of the arena. Would taking the experience from animals make you become feral? What if performing the ritual aged you or required some rare reagent, or could only be performed under a lunar eclipse? What if your victim was claustrophobic, do you acquire that as well? Maybe part of the ritual involves summoning and killing a demon, something an ordinary person couldn't manage themselves, even if they knew the ritual. Maybe it only works in a specific place (say for example a large ancient city, or multiple cities scattered around the world), and so that place is filled with other people hunting for more power, making it a veritable deathtrap. Maybe the stolen experience even fades (Slowly?) if you leave those places.

There are many ways to make something as boring and abstract as xp points into something more detailed and interesting without breaking the gameplay.

 

[Shemar]

There are many ways to make something as boring and abstract as xp points into something more detailed and interesting without breaking the gameplay.

No, not really. There are many ways to add non-XP power advancement methods, either as a replacement for XP or in addition to XP, but nothing proposed in this thread practically comes anywhere near turning XP into a practical game-world reality. All of the proposals involve gaining XP by killing things and they all suffer from the same basic drawback. Either this is in addition to 'regular' XP so it accomplishes nothing towards the OPs stated goal, or it is a replacement for regular XP therefore you have a game where killing things is the only way to gain XP.

 

[Nael]

Either this is in addition to 'regular' XP so it accomplishes nothing towards the OPs stated goal, or it is a replacement for regular XP therefore you have a game where killing things is the only way to gain XP.

You must have me on ignore then.

 

[Shemar]

Either this is in addition to 'regular' XP so it accomplishes nothing towards the OPs stated goal, or it is a replacement for regular XP therefore you have a game where killing things is the only way to gain XP.

You must have me on ignore then.

No, I don't. A use based system (regardless of that use affects skill progression) is unrelated to XP mechanics and it can co-exist with XP or as part of any other character advancement system but it is not a replacement for XP. You are not solving the OPs problem you are just ignoring it.

Also your premise is half wrong. Smart people learn a whole lot more from failing than from succeeding. Sure when you fail you learn what not to do. But if you succeed what did you learn? You already knew how to do it so you leaned nothing.

 

[Nael]

Either this is in addition to 'regular' XP so it accomplishes nothing towards the OPs stated goal, or it is a replacement for regular XP therefore you have a game where killing things is the only way to gain XP.

You must have me on ignore then.

No, I don't. A use based system (regardless of that use affects skill progression) is unrelated to XP mechanics and it can co-exist with XP or as part of any other character advancement system but it is not a replacement for XP. You are not solving the OPs problem you are just ignoring it.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. How are "skill progression" and "XP" any different? Increased ability = increased power, no matter how you slice it. Please explain what you mean further. I'm sorry.

Also your premise is half wrong. Smart people learn a whole lot more from failing than from succeeding. Sure when you fail you learn what not to do. But if you succeed what did you learn? You already knew how to do it so you leaned nothing.

I knew someone would bring that up... But what I am talking about is doing something wrong over and over again and not properly applying acquired knowledge from any failed attempts. I honestly believe that you learn far more, and gain more skill in properly applying knowledge than you do from constant failure. And if you say "Abraham Lincoln", I will smack you

 

[Shemar]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. How are "skill progression" and "XP" any different? Increased ability = increased power, no matter how you slice it. Please explain what you mean further. I'm sorry.

Skill progression is one of many things XP contribute towards character progression (and usually skill progression is not even a direct result of XP it is a result of levelling up but systems vary). While XP can be the sole 'commodity' towards character progression (usually directly translated to levels which in turn allow for all types of character progression) in a system, use based training is wholly inadequate as a complete replacement unless the entire system is skill based (no HP increases, no levels, no special powers/abilities). Furthermore the very point of having 'XP' is to allow player decision towards character progression.

Your proposal does not solve the 'Making EXP exist in universe?' problem, it just makes XP not exist as a an in-game value at all. Increased skill based on continuing application of the skill (and atrophy based on the lack of application) already exists in the game world.

what I am talking about is doing something wrong over and over again and not properly applying acquired knowledge from any failed attempts.

I did say smart people.

I honestly believe that you learn far more, and gain more skill in properly applying knowledge than you do from constant failure.

Well there are different kinds of learning and while in a game combat skills and learning skills and social skills all follow the same model, that is far from the case in reality. Based on my experience at playing sports I would say that for physical skills and assuming a base level of competency, just practicing leads to improvement. Win or lose rarely effects how much you learn. In knowledge areas the only way to learn anything new it to be confronted with a problem you don't already have the answer to.

The only thing that is always constant is that in order to learn anything, you have to identify something you could have done better.

 

[DraQ]

Methinks thou dost herpaderp too much.