[LP CYOA] 傳

[Nevill]

Around the time it was hinted that she is a harem candidate.

Why, yes, it was the rollback! :D

What do you have against BRO Jiutian, anyway?

 

[treave]

also can someone translate me what the shidi/shixiong mean?

Ah, was wondering if someone would ask. I suppose you are familiar with the term 'sifu', or 'shifu'? It would refer to the teacher of the sect or school, or what the other characters currently call Master. It literally translates as teacher-father. The Master is seen as the patriarch of the sect, while all of his disciples are to be like brother and sister to one another.

Shidi would mean teacher-younger brother, and shixiong as teacher-older brother. In this case, 'shi' can be regarded as a blanket prefix for all members of the sect, with the suffix changing depending on their position in the family.

Using just 'brother' doesn't convey well the formal aspects of the address, but on the other hand I felt 'senior' and 'junior' lacked the familial tone. And I wasn't about to use 'Battle-Brother' or other similar combinations.

It's just an experiment to see how many terms and definitions I can gradually leave in the original language to retain as much of its context as possible, as I progress, without making it unreadable. Relying wholly on transliterations would make the text just read weird, while having approximate translations sometimes just means a lot of the context in the title is lost.

 

[RealDDc]

What do you have against BRO Jiutian, anyway?

Gawd, I could not quickly find a quote to justify my hate.

But I've found a quote from a wise old man, rest in peace Wang, backed up by another old aged fellow advising to avoid 2A.

Meeting with the Masters
(Snip)
“They are upright men, are they not?”

“There’s such a thing as being too upright,” says the Grand Taoist. Then, he adds darkly, “When upright men push their righteousness too far, they tend to get people killed for their own ideals, from my experience.”

“Do you suspect something about them?” you probe.

The Abbot laughs when he hears your question. “Never trust a guy so clean that his clothes shine. We don't get to live to our age without learning that. Unfortunately, we can’t interfere directly with other sects, or I’d give that Bai Jiutian a spanking to loosen his spine a bit.”

“Perhaps I can give it on your behalf,” you offer with a sly grin.

Maybe my hate is just based on Bai Jiutians appearance.

A cultured voice interrupts your observations. Turning, you see a handsome young gentleman dressed in elegant white robes. He is smiling at you. “I hope you have found something to help you, Young Master Guan… if that is indeed your name.”

“I am indeed Guan Shide,” you say carefully. From his posture, you can tell that the gentleman is also a practitioner of martial arts. “Pardon me, but who might you be?”

“Ah, forgive my oversight. I am Bai Jiutian of Huashan. It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance.”

“The pleasure is mine, Young Master Bai.” You respond respectfully to the unexpected encounter.

 

[treave]

Hm, to demonstrate the liberties with honorific translation that I've taken, here's a few examples.

Take, for instance, Master. As I mentioned earlier, it can mean shifu (師傅/師父), a catch-all title for a respected teacher and usually head of a school.

It can also mean laoye (老爺), which I would translate as Old Master, and is generally used to refer to the patriarch of a clan or organization, and denotes a certain level of higher social status, be it through wealth or aristocracy. Zhou Dingqiu of the Zhou Manor would usually be referred to this by his servants, while his peers and disciples might still call him 'Master' in English but actually mean 'shifu' due to his prowess in martial arts.

Following up on it, we then have shaoye (少爺), or Young Master, which is used for young scions of a clan. Here it gets a bit more complex, where I have used Young Master as a translation for at least three different titles.

Again, status applies here, along with a sense of respectability. For example, Zhang Manxing can be easily called a 'shaoye' everywhere, thanks to his clan's influence. Bai Jiutian would pass as a 'shaoye' too.

Xu Jing can't. At the most, he can be called a respectable gentleman... politely, that is. He doesn't have the clout to be called a 'shaoye'. His peers - again, if they're being polite - would use the term gongzi (公子), or more literally, son, though in this wuxia genre it is what passes for a formal Mister for young, dashing, well-spoken males like he is. Most females will use this as a form of address, at least until they become more intimate with you and/or realize you are a lout that does not deserve to be addressed respectfully. The term for Mister, xiansheng (先生), on the other hand, is more commonly used for one of a more mature age.

I thought of using 'Sir' for this, but that carries western connotations of rank and nobility which does not truly apply here, in my opinion, as well as not demonstrating the age context.

Another term, which is rather more exclusive to the genre and which I've also translated as Young Master, will be shaoxia (少俠). It loosely translates to Young Knight, or Young Hero. You can see how awkward it'd sound if people call you Young Hero Xu, while Young Master is something you'd be more used to, but it is a term used specifically to refer to up-and-coming, young, powerful, heroic martial artists. If they are feeling particularly diplomatic, or want to flatter you, or are just really, really big on the whole gallant orthodox thing, they'll use this.

'Sir' could be suitable here, but again the age-relevant context is lost, in addition to the flattering implications of respectable martial ability and honourable conduct.

Of course, if you actually go back and comb through the updates, you'll find that I haven't maintained full consistency for these translations and might have gone with whatever sounds better at the time.

 

[Nevill]

His peers - again, if they're being polite - would use the term gongzi (公子), or more literally, son, though in this wuxia genre it is what passes for a formal Mister for young, dashing, well-spoken males like he is.

Is it Mister or Master?

I've noticed people calling Jing 'Master Xu' when they are being polite. Which chinese term was meant to be used there?

 

[Tribute]

Has anyone referred to us using shaoxia while being genuine about it?

His peers - again, if they're being polite - would use the term gongzi (公子), or more literally, son, though in this wuxia genre it is what passes for a formal Mister for young, dashing, well-spoken males like he is.

Is it Mister or Master?

I've noticed people calling Jing 'Master Xu' when they are being polite. Which chinese term was meant to be used there?

Master is Mister for young males. c.f. Batman's Alfred and his insistence on using "Master Bruce". It's not because he considers himself Bruce's slave.

 

[Nevill]

Ah, sorry, didn't know that. I thought it was something setting-specific.

 

[treave]

His peers - again, if they're being polite - would use the term gongzi (公子), or more literally, son, though in this wuxia genre it is what passes for a formal Mister for young, dashing, well-spoken males like he is.

Is it Mister or Master?

I've noticed people calling Jing 'Master Xu' when they are being polite. Which chinese term was meant to be used there?

Yeah, that's another one. Usually it'd probably mean 'gongzi', as in Young Master and I just neglected to type it out, which means a mistake on my part, but if it came from a devout Buddhist like a Shaolin monk or Yifang, it'd be shizhu (師主), which is a polite term monastics use to refer to others and which I can't find a proper translation for, with Master being the closest.

 

[Tribute]

No problem. Master as a title for young males isn't really used anymore.

Shidi would mean teacher-younger brother, and shixiong as teacher-older brother. In this case, 'shi' can be regarded as a blanket prefix for all members of the sect, with the suffix changing depending on their position in the family.

I recognized di as younger brother, but I thought older brother was ge? Am I just not up on my Chinese?

 

[treave]

Has anyone referred to us using shaoxia while being genuine about it?

Off the top of my head, Zhou Dingqiu during the anti-pirate coalition meeting at his manor.

I recognized di as younger brother, but I thought older brother was ge? Am I just not up on my Chinese?

兄, or xiong. However, by itself it can be used by your peers, e.g. Xiahou Yu calling you Brother Xu, which would actually be Xu-xiong, or if it is someone older calling you Brother Xu, it becomes Xu-di.

From the stuff I've read and watched, it seems to be used mainly between males this way.

Ge (哥) is also used, but most of the examples I've seen have it used by females. So if Cao'er calls you Brother Jing, she's saying Jing-ge. Well, I can only work from the literature I read, and I've also seen people use both xiong and ge interchangeably regardless of the gender of the caller... so I don't actually know the etiquette rules for this stuff or if there is any in the first place, and you'll have to take it with a pinch of salt.

Any corrections would be welcome.

 

[LWC1996]

Sounds bout right. Both make and female have used those honorific.

 

[Anabanana]

To add to that, it seems to me that "ge" tends to be used whenever there is an actual familial connection, whereas "xiong" tends to be used as an honorific most of the time. So it isn't gender difference, but more a degree of intimacy? Like Cao'er sees you as family and so will call you "ge", whereas I think Song Lingshu, for example, would likely call us "xiong" instead of "ge" if we grew to be close friends. Kiiiind of like the difference between "bro" and "brother" in English, but not really.

Also "xiong" seems pretty archaic so you'll only hear old (and well, middle-aged, I guess) people and period works using it.

 

[LWC1996]

Whether it's archaic in this time period I have no idea, but the above-mentioned honorifics is just two of the numerous honorifics involving senior, junior, brother, sister, brother-in-arms, sister-in-arms...

 

[LWC1996]

It may mean the same in English, but in the Chinese context, the different usage will tell us what their relationship to each other is.

 

[treave]

To add to that, it seems to me that "ge" tends to be used whenever there is an actual familial connection, whereas "xiong" tends to be used as an honorific most of the time. So it isn't gender difference, but more a degree of intimacy? Like Cao'er sees you as family and so will call you "ge", whereas I think Song Lingshu, for example, would likely call us "xiong" instead of "ge" if we grew to be close friends.

Also "xiong" seems pretty archaic so you'll only hear old (and well, middle-aged, I guess) people and period works using it.

Hm, yeah, this sounds about right. I think too much Three Kingdoms stuff has confused me.

 

[Anabanana]

Whether it's archaic in this time period I have no idea, but the above-mentioned honorifics is just two of the numerous honorifics involving senior, junior, brother, sister, brother-in-arms, sister-in-arms...

Oh, I think "xiong" is definitely period-appropriate.

Also, shixiong and shijie translated as brother-in-arms and sister-in-arms sounds incredibly awkward. Maybe I should pick up some English translations of wuxia novels sometime, just to see how professionals deal with it.

I have to say that you've been incorporating Chinese terms very smoothly into your prose, though, treave. Looks like that "whatever sounds better" rule is really working out!

 

[LWC1996]

Some things just aren't meant to be translated into English I guess. I dunno, maybe bro cud be used? LOL! Just kidding, just kidding. I dun think I cud read another sentence if Treave used bro.

 

[Anabanana]

Or treave can go the anime route again. "Oh, Bai Jiutian-senpai!"

(Senpai to sub for shixiong/jie is one thing, but kohai as a sub for shidi/mei just sounds fucking weird. Jing-kohai? Naaaahhhh.)

 

[LWC1996]

ROFLMAO at the kouhai usage! Do eet, do eet, treave!

 

[treave]

Actually, that's why I figured I could start gradually introducing terms like shixiong and shidi. If weeaboos can popularize oniichan and senpai and sensei, surely this can't be too hard to grasp. I think.

Also, shixiong and shijie translated as brother-in-arms and sister-in-arms sounds incredibly awkward. Maybe I should pick up some English translations of wuxia novels sometime, just to see how professionals deal with it.

Not sure if there are any professional translations, but some that I have seen on the web have gone with 'senior disciple sister', 'junior apprentice brother', which sounds like too much of a mouthful to me even though it is an accurate translation. If I were forced to pick an English translation, I would stick with either brother/sister or senior/junior, to keep things smooth.

 

[LWC1996]

But these honorifics are kinda time period specific innit? Sensei, senpai and kouhai wud work for any time period, IMO.

 

[Anabanana]

Or treave can go the anime route again. "Oh, Bai Jiutian-senpai!"

(Senpai to sub for shixiong/jie is one thing, but kohai as a sub for shidi/mei just sounds fucking weird. Jing-kohai? Naaaahhhh.)

...huh.

Actually, come to think of it, the "-kun" honorific would actually be a pretty decent substitute for shidi/shimei, since it's used for subordinates regardless of gender, often in a workplace/school context.

Actually, that's why I figured I could start gradually introducing terms like shixiong and shidi. If weeaboos can popularize oniichan and senpai and sensei, surely this can't be too hard to grasp. I think.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree. It's easy enough to grasp the meaning through context anyway.

But these honorifics are kinda time period specific innit? Sensei, senpai and kouhai wud work for any time period, IMO.

Nah, people still kinda use them. Especially like in martial arts clubs and whatnot. You know, for fun.

 

[treave]

But they're Japanese.

They already have their direct Chinese equivalents in senior/junior and don't always convey the familial relationship of belonging together to one school sect (Japanese high school does not count).

 

[Anabanana]

Hahahaha, I know! Totally agree, just speculating on what an ANIME version of this LP would look like.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Hahahaha, I know! Totally agree, just speculating on what an ANIME version of this LP would look like.

Tsunderes up the wazoo, for one.