Looking for associate(s) to develop an indie rpg game

[Mojo]

I didn't mean no offense when I declined your offer, but what do you have besides an idea?

I believe that dear Chefe has been doing a lot of writing for the game. So basically he's plowing through pre-production, he also I believe enlisted cardtrick to make an engine for his game. So he actually is working in more than ideas, he's getting the things together.

Well, that method of going about things is pretty hard. Unless he's a really marvellous writer, has a really great idea and has a real magnetic personality this usually doesn't work out. It's amost like one of those modding community threads "Hey, I have this idea for a mod but I have no technical knowledge on how to make it. Would somebody program, model and texture for me?".

There's a reason why in 98% of independent games all the people involved have technical knowledge. That's the same reason why mainstream games suck, because douchebags with nothing but bad ideas are the ones running the show ( Carrie Underwood's idea is pretty awesome though and he can write, so don't think I'm talking about him or all "designers" for that matter, just the vast majority of them). Unless there's money involved, people usually aren't interested in taking the plow to make someone else's game. Face it, brainstorming a game while somebody else actually makes it is propably the wet dream of everyone in these forums. Of everyone that likes games actually.

That's precisely why I don't have a set in stone, sharp, definitive design document *presented* ( I can write and organize one no problem). I made it quite clear time and time again that I want an associate to work *with* ( even on these terms I doubt I will find someone ). J1M didn't get that picture yet.

I have a basic idea for a setting, a good deal of art and skills, all the rest is open to discussion.

 

[J1M]

It seems to me that for an RPG based primarily on dialogue trees writing all of those would be considered as useful as a technical skill.

 

[Mojo]

Indeed, no point arguing. Just show me a real time 3d game that sucessfully used poser models and we will be done. Just the idea of recycling poser models for a game that's supposed to be professional is ridiculous enough AFAIK.

For practical matters, I can say there is something like a design document, just not an organized one. Like I said, it's all spread around my e-mail box, conversations with my former associate and really well developed design ideas.

There was nothing integrated in our work yet. We had the basic design fleshed out, he was making the engine, and I was making the art.

You know I agree with you about using Poser models for a game... all I said was that you should present more stuff so it didn't look like that's what you had used. Show some animals, a building, etc. You said you have 20% of a game done, why restrict yourself to showing only male characters?

Having a mess of files might work for you, but someone new is going to want things in one place in a logical format. Remember, this isn't about showing you are good at art, it's about attracting a programmer to help you.

All my assets are very well organized, I just don't think turning this into an eyecandy thread is going to actually help.I also don't think I need physical proof that I have 20 % of the assets done, being that I have no reason to lie and anyone that get's to work with me will find out that that's true on the first couple of days.

The screenshots were just to show the quality of my work like I said. Character models are usually the hardest thing to do. A good number of big budget games suck at it ( Bethesda for instance).

 

[Mojo]

It seems to me that for an RPG based primarily on dialogue trees writing all of those would be considered as useful as a technical skill.

Yes indeed. Though for some reason most people that want to make rpg games not only think they got writing skills as they also want to use them. Writers are usually unnecessary because of that :wink:

I consider myself a writer though my native language is portuguese so I would need help with making an english game.

 

[sportforredneck]

Unless he's a really marvellous writer, has a really great idea and has a real magnetic personality

:declineofthecodex:

 

[Mojo]

Unless he's a really marvellous writer, has a really great idea and has a real magnetic personality

:declineofthecodex:

That's the way things are pal. Most people won't work hard and for free even for the best idea in the world if it's not theirs. Disagree?

btw, your sarcasm detector is broken.

 

[LCJr.]

I personally think you're wasting your time here. This place is for bitching not doing.

 

[sportforredneck]

So you complain that Chefe has a lot of writing, but nothing else, while you're here with a setting and some art, but have nothing else. Sounds like you're off to a great start.

That's the way things are pal. Most people won't work hard and for free even for the best idea in the world if it's not theirs. Disagree?

Except I just wrote 6 short screenplays for this group, and it wasn't even my creation, and did so for free, and put a lot of thought into it. Hell, if I knew programming or things like that, I'd work on American Hare in a heartbeat. But I don't, mostly because computers aren't my thing, I practically failed my java class alone.

 

[Mojo]

I personally think you're wasting your time here. This place is for bitching not doing.

I can see that !

Though I still think I have better chances here than at any other forum, even if those chances are way bellow the desirable mark. Who knows? I'm already preparing my assets for sale anyway.

I guess I wouldn't reccomend making independent games for anyone, out of personal experience. Unless you have money enough to pay people and invest or you are some kind of jack of all trades ( modeller, texturer, programmer, banker,illustrator, writer) with a lot of time on your hands that is. It's just too difficult. You are going to have to depend on someone for your project to ever get anywhere and when that happens..chances are you will be disappointed.

Chances are you will not be doing exactly what you want as well. I was extremely lucky to get the deal I had ( as was my associate), but that was just a one in a million situation.

After over an year of hard work and putting college and personal life aside all I'm getting is money from selling 3d models. It's decent money but far from enough for making up the disappointment and wasted work.

 

[Mojo]

So you complain that Chefe has a lot of writing, but nothing else, while you're here with a setting and some art, but have nothing else. Sounds like you're off to a great start.

That's the way things are pal. Most people won't work hard and for free even for the best idea in the world if it's not theirs. Disagree?

Except I just wrote 6 short screenplays for this group, and it wasn't even my creation, and did so for free, and put a lot of thought into it. Hell, if I knew programming or things like that, I'd work on American Hare in a heartbeat. But I don't, mostly because computers aren't my thing, I practically failed my java class alone.

Look, haven't I told enough about my game? Have'nt I presented the fact that I'm serious and that I have technical knowledge and skills necessary to fullfill my end of the job? Haven't I said time and time again that I'm not interested in presenting a 75 page complete game design document because I intend to design the game with my associate(s) ? Even if I didn't intend that, there are so many fucking variables ( what engine will we use, what programming language my new associate is fluent at, etc) that would make most of the details up for change eventually.

I don't even know where you are coming from. It seems you are just trying to annoy me to death with senseless arguments.

I was working with just one person, we saw eye to eye and agreed about the game we wanted to make. Our design document consisted of e-mails and chats and I don't see why it should be differently.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

If you're unable to find anyone to work with, you may consider looking at some of the free or cheap 'point-and-click' / WYSIWYG tools. You probably won't get everything you want, but at least you'll be able to get something together.

I hear Blender has a game engine component. I haven't used that actual component, and Blender's interface is an acquired taste, but I've heard its quite powerful. It also has some importers freely available, so you may be able to use the models you've already put together.

I guess RPG Maker is an option, as well. While the graphics are 2-D (and the stock ones are pretty cheesy), there's actually some good functionality available. The program allows for plug-in like components, so you may be able to find some that can work with your ideas.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Look. The 3D models you post are not professional quality. They're perfectly fine for a young amateur / freelancer, which is what you are (college age, right, selling low-cost, low-poly stock models)? But they're below the level of the recent crop of successful indie RPGs (AoD, M&B, Depths of Peril, Frayed Knights, even Eschalon). Certainly they're not, as you suggest, superior to Bethesda's models. Moreover, you've posed them in a way that strongly suggests they aren't boned or rigged, you've not posted poly counts or shown us the textures you're using (so we can't judge how efficiently you're using texture memory), and you've posted a set of very similar models with very similar base silhouettes, which suggests you're using stock models (either your own or someone else's). You tell us you've done 20% of the assets, but what you've shown is a trivial number of roughly duplicated models.

On top of that, you've claimed to be a talented composer, but have offered no musical samples.

That's not to say your art is horrible or that you're a bad person or anything like that. It's just that when the sole basis on which you're selling your project is that you're a great artist, which you're not, and that you've produced, or can produce in short order, the art and sound assets necessary to complete this game, which you haven't demonstrated.

What you have demonstrated, though, is a fundamental misconception of how game development, or any serious product development, works. You claim to have produced 20% of the assets, but simultaneously tell us that "the main quest, storyline, game design and all else is open to frank discussion." So what you mean is that you've produced 20% of the assets you estimate being necessary, despite having any idea how the game will work, how long it will be, what characters it will comprise, what animations will be necessary, and so on.

You've plowed blindly ahead without a design document, and the fact that you think that's not a problem reveals how little you know about making a game. It's not your fault; most indie dreamers are the same way. But it sets off alarm bells for anyone good enough to actually hold up the other side of the bargain you're offering. If you can't see why that is, we can't help you. If you can see it, you should be able to help yourself.

 

[cardtrick]

Chefe is trying to turn his vaporware into blackholeware. It has already swallowed cardtrick.

Heh . . . online responsibilities (especially voluntary ones) are so much easier to avoid than real-life ones. I have the day off tomorrow -- I'll take another swing at that engine and see if I can get anywhere. I'll let you guys know, assuming my faint cries can escape the event horizon.

 

[Mojo]

Look. The 3D models you post are not professional quality. They're perfectly fine for a young amateur / freelancer, which is what you are (college age, right, selling low-cost, low-poly stock models)? But they're below the level of the recent crop of successful indie RPGs (AoD, M&B, Depths of Peril, Frayed Knights, even Eschalon). Certainly they're not, as you suggest, superior to Bethesda's models. Moreover, you've posed them in a way that strongly suggests they aren't boned or rigged, you've not posted poly counts or shown us the textures you're using (so we can't judge how efficiently you're using texture memory), and you've posted a set of very similar models with very similar base silhouettes, which suggests you're using stock models (either your own or someone else's). You tell us you've done 20% of the assets, but what you've shown is a trivial number of roughly duplicated models.

First of all, what you are saying s ridiculous. AOD? M&B? Eschalon? Artistic vision and even artistic quality are a totally different thing ( also very subjective) I will give you this, but if we are talking about technical quality, and yes we are, my models are better than those in that aspect, without argument. Art? That's another, but 'im sure that my stuff is better than most indie games ( specially most indie rpgs) in that aspect as well. It's well done, it's got style and it's original.

I use base models ( my own, obviously) for things such as hands and faces, as 90 % of artists working games that require a large number of characters do. M&B and Oblivion are good examples. I'm a man, not a machine. Doing all the art for a game and being good

My character models range from 4000 to 6000 tris wich is very low for an engine such as C4, not to mention I can easely make hand-made LOD. Textures are 1024x1024 and 512x512 with mipmapping. performance was always in mind when I made them.

As for the rest, fuck you, and fuck your ridiculous trolling. I'm not here to answer to ridiculous accusations or to prove anything to anyone. Just the notion that I would for some reason be trying to lie to anyone about anything is utterly ridiculous. What would be the point?

 

[sportforredneck]

Truly serious? Because these things take years usually, and not everything goes exactly right, can you actually deal with those things? Or are you just going to hang up on it? I mean, you said if you can't find anyone you're just going to give up, if you really feel for your idea, you have to go for it, and actually work to get it off the ground, even if that means having to figure things out alone for awhile, and not just art assets and stuff.

Plus like many here, if you posted your ideas, you could get feedback from the Codex, who from time to time actually have some good ways to help out. You don't have to post 75 pages of emails, just an outline of a few ideas. That can get you a lot of help with input from many people rather than just talking to your associates.

Even if I didn't intend that, there are so many fucking variables ( what engine will we use, what programming language my new associate is fluent at, etc) that would make most of the details up for change eventually.

You kind of need to narrow things down to get the right programmer and such. You need to figure out what things you want, and then you try for that specific skill type in people. It's a lot easier than "We need to decide what is going to happen." I get that you follow the commie rule of "I don't want to lord over you, I want to work with you" but the only way for things to turn out right is for someone to lord over the things. That's why the south lost the American Civil war, there was no main center of control, instead the states each had power which fucked things up.

I don't even know where you are coming from.

My mother's womb is where I came from.

It seems you are just trying to annoy me to death with senseless arguments.

Actually you seemed like kind of a dick from what you said to Chefe, despite not knowing Chefe it annoyed me. Also my arguments aren't senseless, you talked about people not working hard or for free if it's not their idea. And I responded with the fact that I just worked hard and free on something that wasn't my idea. Thus I was giving you my disagreement with your point, which you allowed me to do by saying "Disagree?" I mean, yes, humanity is self-centered, and it's normally all about them, but some can actually work for free on things, hence this whole volunteer nonsense. Also I support anyone making an independent game because that takes skill and a lot of nerve to get through.

I was working with just one person, we saw eye to eye and agreed about the game we wanted to make. Our design document consisted of e-mails and chats and I don't see why it should be differently.

Saw so eye to eye that he quit?

 

[Mojo]

So this will just become a soap opera thread where I answer to wild accusations and explain things that have nothing to do with the purpose of the thread ( wich is to show a *basic* idea of a game and find an associate to work with) and eventually blow up apeshit crazy( getting a custom tag in the process, codex style)?

 

[sportforredneck]

No, of course not. No one gives a shit about you or your "game" please continue undisturbed.

 

[Mojo]

sportforredneck :

I didn't mean to be rude to Carrie Underwood. I like his concept but I'm just not interested in working on a sprite based game. I don't have technical knowledge on that and would have to learn a lot simply to do it. Not only that but his project is just starting out and things are really uncertain. He needs a programmer that suddenly disappeared to get things of the bat for instance

As for all else, do you actually think I need to post such a detailed design document? the high level info I presented isn't enough? maybe you are right. I don't know, I'm not used to this kind of thing. I imagined basic info on the setting and game style I want would be enough. I'm still convinced of that.

 

[Mojo]

No, of course not. No one gives a shit about you or your "game" please continue undisturbed.

I agree. I really do. I will just lock the thread I guess, it's gotten out of hand.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

First of all, there's some fairly important information in this thread, information you really should know if you're going to keep going with this idea. Some of us have already gone through a lot of this crap already, and are actually attempting to give you some aid. It may not always look like it, but really, its the way things work. Just trying to 'wing' it through everything is just going to cause a lot of heartache.

Second, if you can't take criticism, you're looking into the wrong line of work. If you look around on these forums about people's opinions on various games (eg. Oblivion), you'll more or less see what you're going to be getting. You're never going to please everyone; learn to live with it, and try to be better because of it.

 

[Mojo]

Thanks. I had little hope of actually receiving interest but I wasn't expecting such an...unwelcoming response either. I'm really not interested in responding to accusations and trolling.

As for making the project by myself I just don't have the time, and frankly there are a lot of reasons that make it unreasonable to even pursue such a thing. I'm not a programmer and I'm not interested in working with the limitations of subpar gamedeveloping tools as the ones you suggested. Not after coming out of an ambitious project that is.

I'm missing the option to lock the thread...is there such a thing in these boards?

 

[sportforredneck]

I'm missing the option to lock the thread...is there such a thing in these boards?

Only the mods can do that. The only way for the thread to die mostly is for people to just stop responding.

 

[J1M]

I guess I wouldn't reccomend making independent games for anyone, out of personal experience. Unless you have money enough to pay people and invest or you are some kind of jack of all trades ( modeller, texturer, programmer, banker,illustrator, writer) with a lot of time on your hands that is. It's just too difficult. You are going to have to depend on someone for your project to ever get anywhere and when that happens..chances are you will be disappointed.

Chances are you will not be doing exactly what you want as well. I was extremely lucky to get the deal I had ( as was my associate), but that was just a one in a million situation.

After over an year of hard work and putting college and personal life aside all I'm getting is money from selling 3d models. It's decent money but far from enough for making up the disappointment and wasted work.

If you were doing it to make a profitable game you were doing it for the wrong reasons, son.

Also, you posted this two days ago and now you have given up? Why even try at all? You seem to think artists willing to do this sort of thing are super rare, but you expect a coder to see this in a day? Honestly, the people here arguing with you is the best thing to happen for you because it put this thread on the main page sidebar and when you cool your head you might actually learn something.

 

[Helton]

No, of course not. No one gives a shit about you or your "game" please continue undisturbed.

Chefe: Hey! You should join my poorject which I've given up on twice in the month it's been alive and have conscripted someone else to do over half of the actual work.

Mojo: No, I'm not interested, but you've got some good ideas, good luck!

Chefe: Well then you're just a lazy faggot who wants other people to make your game for you!

sportforredass: OMG YOU BEEN MAEN TO CHEF!? WARGAGAGAGAGA NO ONE LIKES YOU GO AWAY INGORING U NOW!!!

 

[Mojo]

I actually sent a pm to chefe/carrie asking what's the deal with his project . If it's really vaporware though ( it looked like it at first glance), I obviously ain't interested ;P .

I don't know, I really don't want to throw away what I learned making this dead game. I will probably keep at it as a hobby so I will be around...maybe work as an artist/soundtrack composer on one of these projects part time. Keep this concept on the cooler. We will see. It's hard finding a project that actually looks like it will go anywhere actually. I deffinately don't want to be selling 3d models again butthurt after wasting my time. Ever.