Level/Map design in RPGs/Dungeon Crawlers

[PompiPompi]

I am trying to design maps for my game, Golel.

However, it's kidn of difficult to design a map and also balance monsters for a tile based/turn based game.

How many encounters you want to have? How long should encounters be?
What is an interesting map? And etc.

From the feedback I got, people like short hand tailored levels/map of dungeons.
With unique dungeon features and "gotcha".

Here are all the maps of the test mini campaign.

Here is a new WIP dungeon map I am trying to do.
It's a bit inspired by EOB map.
In which you have two paths to pass the map, and if you pick one, the entrance to the other path gets blocked.

 

[Grauken]

These look terrible

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I recommend perusing the classic essay on "Dungeon Mapping" by an author with the bizarre name of Melan, in order to better understand the abstract structure of dungeons and how that affects exploration.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

These maps don't exactly inspire joy or feel like dungeon crawler maps -- a simple loop or a corridor with branches could work as a part of a bigger picture, but I don't see it here. From the top, they look about on par with maps in Dragon Age: Origins, and that's not a compliment.

If you want to start designing maps for dungeon crawlers, come up with a purpose and idea for each area and start abstracting them.

If you're not sure how to do it, you can play dungeon crawlers and try to understand the idea and purpose behind their levels.

And, of course, practice mapmaking and analyze the game flow on your own. Players have no idea what you have in mind, and they will not design your game for you.

 

[Damned Registrations]

To be honest, I've never been a fan of dungeon crawls without respawning/random monsters. A significant part of the thrill of a dungeon crawl is the feeling that you've gone deep, and are unsure if exploring one more tunnel or crossing the obviously trapped room to loot a chest or two will be the difference between dying or making it back out alive. When you can just clear the dungeon and make it safe to travel, the layout doesn't really matter any more; it's just tedious safe movement from your rest area to the unexplored bit you're going to chip away at. The only way around that is stuff like traps that send you to another floor or whatever, but then it's still less of a 'is this risk worth it?' moment and more of a 'Well that's some bullshit' kind of moment instead.

Might and Magic has this style of gameplay, but the dungeon crawls there are more or less just for style as opposed to any real gameplay. The whole game is about exploring dozens of possible paths and finding the ones that grant you power instead of getting you killed or wasting your time. If you feel your game can lean into that type of exploration focused gameplay, what your dungeons need are plenty of meaningful treasures- not simply loot you could find anywhere that will become obsolete, but permanent upgrades you'd be happy to find whether at hour one or hour thirty. Once your dungeon has those, putting them behind traps, puzzles and trials to make them feel earned is the purpose the dungeon serves.

 

[PompiPompi]

Ok, new map idea.

The idea, you enter from the south.
Then there are 3 rooms accessed from the circle corridor.

Each room has a gem in it.
If you pick two gems, you can open the door with gems at the start, and go down to cave 1 drop.
If you pick three gems, you can go to cave 2 drop in the center of the circle.
Both drops lead to same "goal room/boss".
Then from goal room, you go back up to secret room next to 2 gems door.
Then you can go out.

 

[PompiPompi]

A new first beginner level.
What do you think?
For the most begginer player that can't even kill a rat.
You think it's a good first level?

The idea is that you start at a small patch in the first, and there is a dungeon entrance.
And then maybe there is some old man or weird creature next the entrance.
After a small talk with the weird person, you decide to enter to reterieve a gem from the small dungeon.

LevelMap

 

[Socrates]

Core ideas for level exploration/design should go something like this:

1. Find some unique aesthetic or centerpiece that draws the player into the level. Could be anything really, but I like something that strikes the eye. The idea is you want to draw the player in, make them want to delve deeper out of greed or curiosity.
Perhaps a set of stained glass art depicting elements of the dungeon in a forshadowing way or hinting towards some mythical end place.

2. Use the theme to drive the structure of your levels. For example say its floral or nature inspired - draw the levelscape in such a way that it reflects that and the creatures within it.

3. Consider the pacing - give places for the player to breathe in relative safety or to get their bearings. Make areas where hostile creatures reside to reflect that.

4. The design should reward the player for going out of his way/performing explorative tasks.

5. The number of encounters or type should be influenced by the overall difficulty threshold you are aiming for. If this is early you probably want something that is a placeholder until you have a better feel for what you want to accomplish in the macro sense.

6. Test/test/test. It's not really a hard science but if the progression feels bad it should be thrown out. You should always keep in mind the perspective of the player experiencing your craft for the first time with zero knowledge. IE - Would this make sense or is this something necessary?

I know this is very general but level design is really an art and pinning down exactly what makes it good is a difficult one.

 

[Baron Tahn]

Play Might&Magic if you havent. That has some great maps. Overland integrates well with dungeon maps. Lots of secrets, riddles, traps and so on. Just dont go crazy with the gimmicks like teleporters.

 

[Grauken]

I love a good teleporter map that goes crazy with it

Though that the point, a developer of a dungeon crawler should already know how to develop great maps or at least what he thinks should be great because he has so many ideas from having played them for years, not shopping his amateurish, half-baked attempts on a forum. It doesn't sound like you know what you want from a crawler or haven't played enough

 

[PompiPompi]

I love a good teleporter map that goes crazy with it

Though that the point, a developer of a dungeon crawler should already know how to develop great maps or at least what he thinks should be great because he has so many ideas from having played them for years, not shopping his amateurish, half-baked attempts on a forum. It doesn't sound like you know what you want from a crawler or haven't played enough

I have stopped playing games like 15 years ago, because I was busy deving. But I did play a lot of old games.
Nowadays Dungeon Crawlers aren't even a thing.
Most modern gamers don't want turn based games at all.

 

[PompiPompi]

By all time Peak:

Top turn based games(including non RPGs):

Vs Top Action RPG

 

[Grauken]

Nowadays Dungeon Crawlers aren't even a thing.

holy shit are you clueless

 

[PompiPompi]

Nowadays Dungeon Crawlers aren't even a thing.

holy shit are you clueless

I know there are still a ton of dungeon crawlers.
I am saying, they are very off the main stream.

I am talking about tile based/turn based games.
I am not considering Elden Ring an actual dungeon crawler.

 

[PompiPompi]

What do you think of this WIP of campaign?

 

[Grauken]

Looks like a single-character cheap Legend of Grimrock clone. There are a couple of those already on Steam. Perfect mix for failure

 

[PompiPompi]

Looks like a single-character cheap Legend of Grimrock clone. There are a couple of those already on Steam. Perfect mix for failure

How is it cheap clone?
You can't drop closets on monsters in Legend of Grimrock.
Also, legend of Grimrock is not turn based exactly.

You are a bitter little manlet bitch.
Fuck off from here.

 

[Grauken]

Fuck off from here.

Make me

 

[King Crispy]

Grauken, stop shitting up the thread.

 

[CryptRat]

I make random maps and share them, if players get really pissed off when roamming through a map and want to kill me then I keep it, otherwise to the trashbin it goes.

 

[Falksi]

As others have said, play the games you're mimicking and draw inspiration and knowledge from them.

Might & Magic series, Bard's Tale series, and Phantasy Star 1 & 4 are just a few which I like which cover different angles of good dungeon crawling.

 

[Socrates]

What do you think of this WIP of campaign?

In addition to my above comment:

I think caves can be a really interesting set piece if done right. Obviously caves/mines in RPG's are nothing new but the way in which they are designed can still be very interesting in a creative and contemporary sense. Take a look at TtDP's third mission. It's a series of caves/mines that lead into a more interesting structures. A great inspiration from turning a normally boring environment into something that becomes varied and more interesting the farther you delve.

I'd definitely watch a letsplay of M3 to get an idea of how crazy some of the level design elements from the dark project were. Eidos were definitely gambling with their level design ideas and it payed off.

https://youtu.be/68t8i0Rdk0A?si=aQuKxqqBCw3mCLCb

 

[Baron Tahn]

To add to the above, check out Arx Fatalis. It's got some great meshing of caves with underground civilisation that might suit you, OP. Likewise it's spiritual predecessor, Ultima Underworld, still holds up if you can stomach it's age.

 

[Krice]

I think "realistic" design is the way to go, which means every room has some kind of reason to exist, based on some function of that room. However there are more and less realistic reasons for a room to exist. I think you should start from the dungeon itself, why does it exist. What is in there, why, etc. Level design can become a bit boring if you just comb through endless amount of rooms and tunnels. Then again, also the RPG system has a big role, because if it sucks then realistic levels can't save the game.

 

[PompiPompi]

I think "realistic" design is the way to go, which means every room has some kind of reason to exist, based on some function of that room. However there are more and less realistic reasons for a room to exist. I think you should start from the dungeon itself, why does it exist. What is in there, why, etc. Level design can become a bit boring if you just comb through endless amount of rooms and tunnels. Then again, also the RPG system has a big role, because if it sucks then realistic levels can't save the game.

Most RPGs levels and dungeons are very unrealistic.
A dungeon in real life is much smaller than your average RPG dungeon.

So doing realistic dungeons would be a bit limiting.