Let's Play VtM: Wild Nights - Chapter 10

[GarfunkeL]

Getting close to the climax!

 

[Excidium]

Getting close to the climax!

Yes!

I expected Oscar to turn against Anthony sooner or later, but if Fellowes is with Eames too...oh boy.

 

[laclongquan]

Oh, I entirely agree that there's good chance the minions wont find the traps. And very good chance that Donnie will survive the torture. But it's unpleasant to see my pessimistic expectations come into being.

Your idea 1 go closely with my plan also. The difference is that I still give a large share of credit to Eames. Erika receive hers, meaning that reflect toward Kirkberg, And Eames receive hers. NO ONE receive most of credit to ensure the balance of power wont be tipped too heavily into either side and the losers wont get too mad at us.

 

[Esquilax]

Oh, I entirely agree that there's good chance the minions wont find the traps. And very good chance that Donnie will survive the torture. But it's unpleasant to see my pessimistic expectations come into being.

Your idea 1 go closely with my plan also. The difference is that I still give a large share of credit to Eames. Erika receive hers, meaning that reflect toward Kirkberg, And Eames receive hers. NO ONE receive most of credit to ensure the balance of power wont be tipped too heavily into either side and the losers wont get too mad at us.

The Sculptor doesn't have the time to elaborately torture Donnie into spilling the beans, but even if he did, Donnie would be difficult to break for any interrogator. I have no doubt that he'll keep his composure around Angelos.

Giving Eames credit is meaningless if we're going to make a statement praising Kirkbeck anyways. She will be pissed off that we didn't go on record calling Kirkbeck's leadership into question, and she won't be happy if we give her the lame consolation prize of favor from the Prince that she plans on deposing - she would have nothing to gain from it. She doesn't care about credit for the hit because that was never her game to begin with; her game all along was using this assassination as a means to strip Kirkbeck of his power. I think what you're proposing is too much of a half-measure.

No matter what we choose to do, we have to be decisive about it. Either we betray Eames and stand firmly on the Prince's side, or we decide to go along with her plan 100%. Going for a half-measure will mean that the Prince isn't in our corner, but at the same time it will alienate Eames because she won't get her bloodless coup. Nope, things are coming to a head and we need to make our stand.

We'll have the image of a patriotic Camarilla hero if we pull this off and morale will be high, so we can use that to our advantage by endorsing Kirkbeck's stance against the Sabbat, stating that Angelos' death is just the first step in eliminating Sabbat presence in London. We'll stress the importance of unity amongst London's Camarilla Kindred - if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, you're probably a Sabbat sympathizer or worse. Considering Eames is known for being one of Kirkbeck's biggest detractors, some suspicion will naturally fall on her. I'm betting that a few of her fellow conspirators will be so afraid of being swept up in the tide of anti-Sabbat hysteria we've created that they'll fall into line. This will isolate her politically, and perhaps even allow us to put her on the chopping block in due time. Plenty of drawbacks to this as well, but it's an option.

That being said, there are compelling reasons to support Eames, particularly if we learn how to perform a Vaulderie and find a covert way of discussing this shit with the Sheriff.

 

[Kz3r0]

Actually my problem with Eames' plan is that expose us too much for too little gain, without mentioning the sheriff's dumping.
So what I suggest is to negotiate with Eames more favorable options for us and try to preserve the sheriff's position, supporting the prince will do us no good.

 

[laclongquan]

We have time, surely. The two sides are at the stage of planning character defamation, not assassination. Tensions is high but not dangerously so.

 

[Esquilax]

Actually my problem with Eames' plan is that expose us too much for too little gain, without mentioning the sheriff's dumping.
So what I suggest is to negotiate with Eames more favorable options for us and try to preserve the sheriff's position, supporting the prince will do us no good.

Eames' terms aren't favourable to us, but I don't think that we're in much of a position to do much about it. What would we say? We don't even have anything to bargain with. Eames views Schiller as a threat because (1) she's a highly respected Sheriff that lacks the petty politics common in the Camarilla, and (2) she is our most powerful ally. Eames eventually wants us around as a bloodbound puppet Baron that will support any decisions that she makes. The next step in that plan will be to isolate us by ensuring that we have as few powerful friends like the Sheriff as possible. Think about it - if you were in Eames' shoes, would you really be dumb enough to keep a surly Sheriff who thinks too much for her own good around? No, you want a goon who does what he's told - probably the kind of guy that Turcov has in mind.

Why do you think supporting the Prince is such a bad idea? I say that both Eames and Kirkbeck are assholes, so we may as well go with the asshole that gives us the most power. I'm leaning towards Kirkbeck for now, though it could change. But don't expect the Regentia to even consider keeping Erika as Sheriff, that's not going to happen. Only way I could see that happening is if we find out who Turcov's candidate is, and have him discretely killed so that the Barons have no choice but to keep Schiller around.

No matter what we do though, we need a way to covertly inform the Sheriff about this if possible. Oscar is watching us, so we definitely can't visit or call Schiller while he's got his eyes on us. Perhaps we can send him on some fool's errand to distract him - tell him that a contact of ours saw Rannigan on the edge of the city and that he should investigate. By the time he finds out there's nothing there, we will have contacted Erika and made our public statement. Any thoughts on how to contact Erika without tipping off Eames?

 

[laclongquan]

Damn problem is that he's master electronic surveillance. We simply cant stay out of ALL camera's vision. THAT's why I propose to drag him with us to the meet with Erika. IF he's with us, we will cramp his style so much that even if he know something he still cant report back in time to do any good. That, and the chance to convert him back to our cause.

And do you think Jamieson's business in UK is really the container smuggled in by Kueijin? From what I can tell, he's not at any events related to them. In that case, after this is over we can have him as one of the bodyguards to chinatown.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

I have to tip my hat to grunker, he creates an atmosphere with relatively few words. That's a skill and a half that is.

 

[grotsnik]

I have to tip my hat to grunker, he creates an atmosphere with relatively few words. That's a skill and a half that is.

I'm sure he'll be glad to hear that! (But thanks!)

Right. It's a fine sunny day and I don't have to go to work, so there's absolutely no excuse for me not to sit out and scribble out a character sheet. Stay tuned.

 

[laclongquan]

Faster, grotsnik! Faster!

 

[SCO]

I'm curious as to why some posters (i.e. Lord Andre, SCO) chose B instead. Why disagree with Eames openly? Not saying it's a dumb idea, just curious. Doesn't seem prudent to show your cards during a poker game. Honesty is a bad idea in a game of plots and schemes. Based on what the Regentia said, I'm assuming that her first step in the plan to strip Kirkbeck of his power will be to have us make a public statement, so she's relying on us to initiate things. I've got two ideas for this:

The tremere pyramid is almost bloodbonded, bottom to top, neonate to Tremere usurper.

It is almost as effective as the vaulderie, but more dystopian.


Publicly double crossing a Tremere Baron, (and let's be serious here, the way her plan is going, it's going to come out) WILL put us in their shit list, unless we are adroit enough not to embarrass Eanes, and that's assuming that her superiors don't find out, in which case, she's in deep shit and may go out swinging for us. Doubt she'll be a fan even if it goes well for her.

 

[Lord Andre]

I'm curious as to why some posters (i.e. Lord Andre, SCO) chose B instead. Why disagree with Eames openly? Not saying it's a dumb idea, just curious. Doesn't seem prudent to show your cards during a poker game. Honesty is a bad idea in a game of plots and schemes. Based on what the Regentia said, I'm assuming that her first step in the plan to strip Kirkbeck of his power will be to have us make a public statement, so she's relying on us to initiate things. I've got two ideas for this:

I voted B because I think we should start acting like major players. We are ventrue, we rule - that's what we do. We don't negotiate with tremere. Tremere negotiate with us. The chick is talking down to us and needs to be put in her place. The diableristic little rats can smell fear so we must show none.

Ventrue inspire and command through presence and domination, we need to stop acting like weak nosferatu scrambling for left-overs and start acting like rulers, otherwise no one will take us seriously.

So what if we are in her grasp, so what if we are low generation, she doesn't have the guts to kill us nor would she benefit from it, we on the other hand have a lot to benefit from drawing a line and making a point: We play ball with her but we ain't her bitch.
We should take a hint from Sculptor Angelos, who behaves more like a ventrue than us, and from what I understand he is low generation too: Too become a leader one must act as a leader. You can't play it safe and aim for the top.

Another example of a major player - Donnie. The malk walked into Sabat territory and called the local leader a cunt to his face. He could have been killed but he still acted like Bruce Willis on steroids. And we are scared to tell the tremere baron we don't want to be her puppet.

The point I'm trying to make with this rant is that in the vampire world if you want to be somebody you have to have balls (more so if you are ventrue) and we have yet to show any - balls.

 

[Esquilax]

@ Lord Andre: That makes some sense. She probably does need us - in fact, I don't see how she'd be able to set up this coup without us. It would be impossible for her to take credit for the hit since Anthony has been so physically involved in making it work, plus the Sheriff and Donnie would be able to call Eames out on lying if the Tremere tries to take credit. I think that's why she's offering to be a background player - she knows that she can't take the credit, so she's giving it to us.

I think she needs us if she wants Kirkbeck out of the picture. Without our efforts here, I don't see how she'd be able to do anything. If anything, trying to cause dissent like this during wartime might make her a target.The only major problem is if Eddie is in league with Eames. He's probably an innocent victim, but if he's on her payroll, then it could mean we're toast. But I'm willing to risk it.

Fuck it, flip-flopping to B. We've been aggressive bros leading up to the assassination, it's time to continue being aggressive bros. Let's tell this bitch what's up.

EDIT: Actually, laclongquan is right. There are plenty of ways that Eames could try to strip Kirkbeck's power without us, she's a shrewd woman. Lying is really the best option now and it gives us the most room to maneuver. I'm back to D again, I don't know what I was thinking.

And who cares if she respects us? If anything, it's better that she thinks we're some weak neonate with too much ambition for his own good. If we learn how to perform a Vaulderie, I would absolutely love to pretend to be bloodbound to her.

 

[laclongquan]

Dont be silly.

Let assume we do the EXTREME thing: we say no to her face.

We know quite a lot of her plan. We also is the pivot of this major operation.

If we get ashed, there will be words of Erika and Donnie against her: Erika and Donnie will accuse her of killing us to get all the credit. She will accuse them right back that Erika is in league with Donnie, a major loose cannon with tie to Sabbat. She will also accuse Erika of 'disappearing' Terrance (the two vamps were Prince men and Erika is Sheriff) and expose the surveillance video from Oscar. She can accuse, with believable fact, that Kirkberg manufacture a war with Sabbat.

With that, the outcome is the same: either magna carta happen, or Kirkberg got dethroned and Sammy get to be Prince.

That is a risky option for Sammy but doable. It's all on Sommer and Eddie's dead and disappearance, and close control of Oscar. Still, it's doable considering we are in her safehouse, and both are recovering from major wounds.

Go ahead, say NO to her face.

 

[Lord Andre]

Saying no to her face would probably make her respect us more.
Saying yes(even if it's a lie) will put us in the puppet zone. No one takes you seriously when you're in the puppet zone, not even your own men.

Also consider this: When is a tremere baroness more likely to have you killed:

a) when you say no to her plan and remain neutral ?
b) or when you double-cross her after asking and receiving her help ?

The question, as I see it, is: do we want to play a king in the making or a pawn ? Where's the famed ventrue presence ? The charisma that moves kine and kin alike. All I see is - Yes maam '! Thank you maam' ! Will you blood bound me now, I can't wait to be your water boy !
We started as equal partners with her and I don't see why that should change. At least play hard to get until she actually puts an offer on the table, not empty promises based on ifs and maybes. If we back down every time the possibility of violence occurs than what can we hope to accomplish ?

Alexandre the Great said: Fortune favors the bold ! and he was a true ventrue.

So, to summarise yet another rant, it's all about having balls.

 

[wjw]

I prefer B over D. I don't want to pussy through the entire story

 

[laclongquan]

Saying no to her face would probably make her respect us more.
Saying yes(even if it's a lie) will put us in the puppet zone. No one takes you seriously when you're in the puppet zone, not even your own men.

Now that is a strange logic you use there. Very strange logic. Or better to say, illogic.

Say No to her face just mean say No to her face. Possibly, it mean that the speaker is so totally against the idea that he cant keep it inside and shout to the proposer. Where did it imply that the proposer will 'respect' the speaker because of that loudmouth action?

Also consider this: When is a tremere baroness more likely to have you killed:

a) when you say no to her plan and remain neutral ?
b) or when you double-cross her after asking and receiving her help ?

When a vampirelord or vampirelady of that manipulator class have you killed that is because your sorry ass is so worthless it's no use to keep alive. And your loudmouth action offend her. Doublecross? What's that? It's a risk you always have to take when you try to manipulate a Ventrue. Get angry because of that just show you have no class, no intelligence, and no sense of irony.

The question, as I see it, is: do we want to play a king in the making or a pawn ? Where's the famed ventrue presence ? The charisma that moves kine and kin alike. All I see is - Yes maam '! Thank you maam' ! Will you blood bound me now, I can't wait to be your water boy !
We started as equal partners with her and I don't see why that should change. At least play hard to get until she actually puts an offer on the table, not empty promises based on ifs and maybes. If we back down every time the possibility of violence occurs than what can we hope to accomplish ?

Alexandre the Great said: Fortune favors the bold ! and he was a true ventrue.

So, to summarise yet another rant, it's all about having balls.

Excuse me excuse me. Where did it say we stand at equal with Sammy? We are an upstart Ventrue not even a baron yet. Sammy is the Regentia of Tremere and Baroness. We need her to jump in the fray which is why we seek her first and not Erika. We used her HQ as stage for our little fake-murder. We used her safehouse as refuge. Where did it say we stand at equal with Sammy.

Lie Yes, then go meet Erika to ensure this sting happen properly. After it's all over ensure that she receive a big share of credit but not too large that she can threaten Kirkberg successfully and piss erika off. THAT is her payment for her role in this operation.

I prefer B over D. I don't want to pussy through the entire story

We choose Ventrue, and unfortunately that will be our limitation. Ventrue NEVER is direct action specialist. We show our balls in strategy, tactics, and political visions, not in direct actions.

 

[wjw]

There is a difference between "action" and just saying "no" to her crazy plan.

Her plan involves us telling that the Rannigan thing, was all bullshit, while we ourselves still haven't figured out that part yet. Just point out that this could really backfire, you gotta smooth up the "no", indeed we are ventrue, we are everything but blunt. If we go with her plan, she wants us to stay dead a little while longer = staying trapped in her haven. She knows we will want to contact the sherriff, and maybe, just maybe she forgets about the cellphone... but Oscar certainly wont.

 

[laclongquan]

You know the phrase "Never say No to bloodthirsty powerhungry nobles"? You think with her plan like that she havent done preliminary talks with other barons before our talk? Say No is to ruin her work. Say No is to invite immediate actions on her parts. I dont like saying NO to her while we are in her palms right now.

 

[Esquilax]

Bros, I think I've figured out a way of warning Erika about the Regentia's plan without tipping off Oscar. I didn't like laclongquan's idea because I felt it was very suspicious - why would we be leaving the safehouse in the first place and why would we be bringing Oscar along? It's too direct and dragging him along doesn't make sense. I am assuming two things about Oscar's surveillance behaviour:

(1) That he'll be keeping an eye on us and Eddie.
(2) That he only monitors shit that goes on at night.

With that in mind, who do we know that can walk around during the day, that Oscar will likely not be paying attention to, and that we can trust for sure? Antonia, our ghoul. After this is done, we contact her and tell her that we've written a letter that needs delivering to one of our Kine contacts - some old guy who still doesn't even use the Internet.

Of course, that's just a cover in case Oscar happens to be listening - the actual letter itself will detail the Regentia's plan. We'll tell Antonia to slip it inside the door of the address we've listed (that address being the Sheriff's haven on the East End, of course) during the day, before sundown. I am willing to bet that Oscar's attentions will be mostly on us and other vampires around us, not a lowly ghoul sent to perform mundane secretarial work during the daytime. The best part is, this idea works even if Eddie is in league with Eames and Oscar won't really be able to trace anything, since we aren't using electronics.

I got the idea after remembering Knox's Cathayan quest in Bloodlines, and how Bertram expertly conned the PC into doing his dirty work. You didn't expect any subterfuge because you just figured Knox was a lowly, dumbass ghoul. I think that the same thing will apply here.

 

[laclongquan]

Using Antonina is intriguing. But how the hell do we contact her without blowing our secretcy? Any phonecall from the safehouse risk blowing our cover. write a letter to send to her is too slow: it's not called snailmail without reason. Have her come to safehouse is... ridiculous. Convince either Sammy or Oscar of some bullshit so that she can come and get it is unconvincing: we are playing dead, remember?

I object it on the ground of no conceivable method to use her. We need info to Erika fast, secret from Sammy and Sabbat, and reliable.

And even though we dont stand with her in this matter, it's not at the level of severing relations yet. Dont get so bloodthirsty to take her out, even if we can.

Kueijin must wait after this. The war is very inconvenient so we must find way to end this quickly. Reassured that nobody here forget them.

EDIT: now that I think about it, there's a way to transfer data to Erika without leaving this safehouse or risk contacting Antonina.

Control of Oscar.

The bugger is our watchdog but he also is our acquaintance much longer. Plus his friend Eddie is right here. Plus he's the one know about Prince's shenaningan prior to the War. We have lots of common points.

I bet he's too scared after the affair so he run around find a patron for security, therefore fall into Sammy's palms. Now he follow us and we ensure that he got Erika's protection, Sammy will no longer be revelant to his interest. much.

So the method is charisma option or dominate or just plain smooth talk him back into our service. A purely Ventrue way.

Then we can have him contact Erika. No need to get our ghoul involved. Frankly get her in might compromise the operation.

 

[Murk]

Damn, Jamieson is taking some mad pain for us.
:brofist: in his honor.

 

[Lord Andre]

This back and forth is irrelevant because so many have already voted D, so I'll make this short.

If you are an upstart and you want to be accepted in the "big boy circle" you have to show that you are special, do something wild, have guts, be a little reckless, be assertive, stand out from the crowd, show your ambition.
The trap is our chance to brake into the big boy world. To gain a foothold with the major players. To do that we must remain independent, show our ambition and strong will at this juncture.
Would such a move be dangerous ? Of course it would. Could we die ? Of course. Is there any other way to move up in the world ? No.
So, the question remains: Do we have the balls to be somebody or do we cower in the shadow of the big boys forever ?

Also, to clarify a point: Ventrue are not necessarily weak fighters. Our character probably is, because he is young.
But, while ventrue do not excell in direct physical confruntation, they do excell in direct verbal confrontation. Ventrue don't lie, they persuade through charisma and presence. Presence gives an edge in any verbal confrontation no matter the opponents generation. Presences is our biggest weapon, so why do we act like we have no disciplines at all ?

More so, it is clear from the way Grotsnik wrote it that we would simply and calmly be saying no to her proposal. That in turn may invite further negotiation.
This isn't Shepard's dialog wheel. You don't choose "No" and the character starts shouting profanities and death threats.
No means just that - no. The baroness didn't say: "Either you're with me or against me !". She said: "This is my proposal."
If we say no, the most probable reaction from her will be: "Do you have a better plan ?" and "What part of my proposal made you say no ?"

Dammit ! Wall of text again. Oh well...

Perhaps that character spread sheet Grotsnik was talking about will remind people that we actually do have disciplines
to work with.

 

[SCO]

My predilection is based on the fact that lying is unwise, lying as a ventrue using soft power is doubly unwise, lying to a Tremere Baron is treble unwise.

But oh well, the voters have spoken. I suspect this will end us with the anarchs, but maybe we can snatch away some of our allies.

You'd do well to consider some form of "No... but..." if you have a better plan than what she proposed.