Incline Larian's Dragon Commander - Released

[Tigranes]

That is some awful translation (into Korean), I hope they didn't pay too much for it. It does make sense, but is about as good as Google Translate Mach II.

Haven't tried the beta at all yet and have never been that hyped about DC, just was more about supporting DOS. I'll try the full version.

 

[Gord]

SPAM units. SPAM more units. SPAM even more units. SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM. The only way to win is to outSPAM the enemy.

When did you play the beta? Because at least since ~4 patches that isn't exactly the best (or only) way to win the RTS part.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[ColCol]

So, anyone looking for a beta code?

 

[Gord]

Hm, have played a bit with the latest patch.
Game seems indeed to have become more spammy again, or rather it starts out reasonable, but at some point, the AI suddenly throws a shitload of units against you.
I think they decreased the build times a bit too far in the last 2 patches.
Not as bad as when the open beta started, but I prefered the somewhat more even pacing it had ~1.5 weeks ago.

 

[Zeriel]

I respect Larian now. For giving us the free beta access.

Because the game is shit.

RTS mode is terrible. Capture pre-positioned locations... build same shit on them... SPAM units. SPAM more units. SPAM even more units. SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM. The only way to win is to outSPAM the enemy. Not even dull rock paper scissors mechanics help - you just SPAM more units that counter the SPAM of the enemy. SPAM UNTIL THE ENEMY CANNOT SPAM.

Yeah but hey you can autoresolve right? Sure, but there's no fun in that either and Strategic map is quite simplistic and you pretty much just build ++ buildings on it and move around units that don't make much difference in RTS mode.


Try again, Larian.

"Guys, this game they said would be an RTS is an RTS! SHIT GAME!"

Sorry, but everything you just described is standard practice for the traditional RTS genre. If you don't like it, well shit, there's plenty of other genres out there.

 

[ForkTong]

That is some awful translation (into Korean), I hope they didn't pay too much for it. It does make sense, but is about as good as Google Translate Mach II.

Pray, tell me more.

 

[MetalCraze]

I take it you've never played many RTS games

 

[ForkTong]

MetalCraze vs Ish
MetalCraze vs Mad

Live on Twitch. MetalCraze will only spam units to prove his point. Deal?

 

[evdk]

One liner incoming.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

According to CDS chat Skyway says he has already won, 'cause if he played and lost it just means the other person was spamming more units than him and proves him right.

SKYWAY IS THE VICTOR! : x

 

[Tigranes]

That is some awful translation (into Korean), I hope they didn't pay too much for it. It does make sense, but is about as good as Google Translate Mach II.

Pray, tell me more.

Basically, the translation is rather literal, making for awkward constructions all round. E.g. I assume the original English for the first phrase is "If I'm totally honest with you"; the literal Korean translation is about as clunky as, say, "Totally honestly saying". Or, for the subsequent clauses, the different word order Korean has makes it overloaded as well. Imagine, I suppose, something like this in English: "I have knowledge that is expert that I could lend to you which is a thought I would usually laugh at like watching a dwarf opera..."

To be fair, it would be hard to do a better job. It would require a different translation philosophy (translate the spirit of the original as much as the letter) which is even more risky unless you have good ways to audit. What the current translation does achieve is (1) it makes sense, you just have to squint a little; (2) at least it replicates a posh courtly tone, though as you'd expect this combines badly with the awkward translation.

Finally, I doubt any Korean gamer, given the history of Korean translation of games in the past, is expecting any better. I think if you were seriously aiming to localise well for Koreans and there was enough of a market to justify it, I would advise you to invest in someone that can translate the spirit rather than the letter. My guess is that given my fellow countrymen's predilection towards piracy and MMOs, this would not be the sensible thing to do.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

What the current translation does achieve is (1) it makes sense, you just have to squint a little

Should be fine for the Korean localization then, right?

 

[DeepOcean]

To anyone who played the beta, is this accurate? The dragon really compensate for the simplistic RTS part?

 

[Infinitron]

Whisky Post as news to annoy Metro

 

[Grunker]

Whisky Post as news to annoy Metro and Grunker

 

[Logic_error]

To anyone who played the beta, is this accurate? The dragon really compensate for the simplistic RTS part?

This is strictly my personal opinion:

The dragon is a gimmick; nothing more nothing less. The RTS element and the TBS as well is so lackluster that I regret paying 35 euros more for buying the D:OS. The really ugly part is that the video looks so much better and the TB portion is portrayed too much more lively than it really is. The game has little depth in MP and I suspect this spells a certain doom to SP element as well.

 

[Grunker]

To anyone who played the beta, is this accurate? The dragon really compensate for the simplistic RTS part?

This is strictly my personal opinion:

The dragon is a gimmick; nothing more nothing less. The RTS element and the TBS as well is so lackluster that I regret paying 35 euros more for buying the D:OS. The really ugly part is that the video looks so much better and the TB portion is portrayed too much more lively than it really is. The game has little depth in MP and I suspect this spells a certain doom to SP element as well.

It's almost like that thing Grunker was talking about.

 

[Raze]

To anyone who played the beta, is this accurate? The dragon really compensate for the simplistic RTS part?

The RTS combat is not nearly as simplistic as shown in that video. If you are not going to use control groups or take advantage of any of the upgrades or special skills of units, then throwing masses of units at the enemy is a workable strategy, if not the best one. That particular map wasn't very conducive to other approaches, either.
Larian has a couple of gameplay videos on twitch.tv if you want to see the other end of the spectrum (a lot of skill use, micromanagement and switching back and forth to dragon form during combat, and more strategy before combat than simply moving a bunch of units into a particular country).

Using the dragon can certainly compensate for having a simplistic strategy in the RTS part, though. I am not much of RTS player, but do ok (as of a few days ago) against the default AI using the dragon (haven't played much of the last couple betas, though, which made some AI improvements, so I might have to drop the difficulty down until I get better at using the dragon skills and unit abilities).

For the other issues he had:
- The population sizes were reduced recently, which should help prevent equally matched forces from dragging out battles too long.
- The dragon he was using also has the shortest overheat time for the main attack (and highest damage). The default sabre dragon, on the other hand, can fire continuously for 30 seconds before overheating if you hold the left mouse button down (rapid clicking will fire and overheat faster, of course).
- There was just an update (minutes ago) that added a lot more control of your troops while in dragon form.

The dragon is a gimmick; nothing more nothing less. The RTS element and the TBS as well is so lackluster that I regret paying 35 euros more for buying the D:OS. The really ugly part is that the video looks so much better and the TB portion is portrayed too much more lively than it really is. The game has little depth in MP and I suspect this spells a certain doom to SP element as well.

The game was built around the dragon, so I'm not sure how it can be considered a gimmick.

What kind of depth are you looking for in multiplayer? There can't really be the RPG portion of the game in multi-player (unless you want some people sitting around waiting while others wander their ship talking to their generals about how they think the war is going, or discussing a proposal from one of the advisers). Other consequences dealing with the different races in single player (for example, committing genocide in a country so the population pool is greatly reduced and initial units matter much more than they would otherwise compared to what you could build during combat) are great for single player, but would just get in the way of multi-player.

 

[Gragt]

MetalCraze vs Ish
MetalCraze vs Mad

Live on Twitch. MetalCraze will only spam units to prove his point. Deal?

The gauntlet has been thrown. Will it be picked up.

 

[toro]

I've backed D:OS but I will not support this shit. Unfortunately, Skyway is right about it.

 

[ForkTong]

I know my opinion will seem somewhat biased, and I'm also not much of an RTS player, but I have some problems with TB's preview.

He says RTS battles can go on and on: not true, your resources are limited. Once the land runs out of recruits, you can no longer build units. So there is a pool players draw from, and controlling the pool and using it wisely is part of the gameplay.

He says RTS battles can drag on: the only time RTS battles can last very long, is if you are playing the current multiplayer maps, which were meant to be played with 4 people, with 2 people.

The only other time it can seem to drag on is if no victory condition is met, but you seem to have won: this is something we are still working on as we have noticed these do not always trigger when you expect them to, but not that very often.

He says RTS battles are blobby, but he's only in chapter 1 of the single player campaign which acts as a tutorial: you gradually unlock units, unit upgrades, and dragon upgrades. If you can only build 5 unit types and you only have 2 dragon upgrades, of course there isn't a lot of depth yet, but we want to introduce the player to these things one by one so they can learn how to use them, how to use them together, and how to react to what the opponent is doing. If we wouldn't do it this way, a lot of people would complain the game is too hard, and there wouldn't be a sense of progression. In chapter 1, the RTS maps are small on purpose and should be an easy win for just about anyone.

(Edit: he says there is no depth, but he wants units to autocast their skills. But a bit further, he also wants to micro. Well you'll have to micro if you'd have a non-passive upgrade and you ever get to chapter 2...)

We've also just added control over unit groups and building when in dragon form. Now on the beta on Steam.

But apparently, we really need to get a guide out quickly that shows off all the unit types, and skills, how they counter each other, how they can be combined, etc.

I hope it's clear that we listen to criticism, it's the reason why we put the beta on Steam, and why so many things have been added to the game or changed in the game in the last six months. TB has valid points here and there, I'm sure, but calling the RTS bit flat, does not sit well with me.

If DeepOcean want to see for himself, he should PM me and I'll get him a beta key.

 

[Infinitron]

ForkTong The problem, I think, is that in most RTSes, you generally don't build that many units in the early/introductory/tutorial phases. The gameplay is simplified in quantity as well as quality.

When people see huge unit hordes in an RTS, they assume that's an advanced stage of gameplay. You wouldn't let beginners control such a huge force, after all!

 

[ForkTong]

I didn't think the amount of units he had in that movie was all that big...

 

[Zeriel]

I also think the RTS space is rough because Starcraft 2 is so dominant. It's really, really hard to even hold a candle to its polished perfection. I never thought of Dragon Commander's RTS element as something to judge in isolation, just as no one would say the Total War games are boring and flat because the 3D battles are just showpieces that exist purely to look pretty (okay, I would, but still). It's got a lot of pieces working together, and I always figured the singleplayer would outshine the multiplayer and RTS bits. It strikes me as a little weird to release just the MP as a beta--while I understand the motivation to do that, it's also presenting probably 10% of what is cool about the game.

ETA: Something to learn from Starcraft 2's singleplayer is that most people (i.e reviewers) are terrible at RTSes. They like to think they're tactical geniuses, but just aren't. Better to have a super-easy-mode difficulty for these people than get 30/100 reviews. This is separate from quality of the game, but it does affect reviews.