Game News KOTOR wins again, and again, and again...

[Andyman Messiah]

I think HK-47 was a memorable character because of his voice (good voice actor), the way he spoke and because of what he actually said. I don't know about you, but I find a bloodthirsty droid amusing. To compare him to a braindamaged ranger who has a sexual relationship with his pet hamster is a bit unfair.

Good voice acting? :shock: Is sticking two fingers down your throat and achieving that special ZZ Top-voice good voice acting? My god, where's the world going to?

Anyway, I'd say HK-47 was funny. Even quirky sometimes. He cracked some good oneliners throughout the game and I got terrified with the fact that he resembled my own weird personality from college, which is a positive thing given the circumstances. Now, if only he couldn't suck so bad in combat...

 

[triCritical]

Tri sees things black, and white. Can't have good chaarcters using an "evil" robot (how cna a robot be evil again?) because that is somehow wrong.

Because he was programmed by an evil robotics engineer. If I thought you could hang I would use concepts such as amoral programmed by an evil scientist. Obviously something amoral will not have compassion, but it was programmed to be evil. And depending on the level of sophistication and AI programming, the robot can be made to emulate an evil creature.

Happy?

And KotOR is about as black and white as you can get. There is dark and there is light. You choose one, or the other. Furthemore, the characters are clearly good, or bad, except the ones looking for redemption and vice versa. Anyhow, if it was more like Arcanum, or Fallout, then it would not be black and white. For instance, when I send a caravan to V13, so I can slack off a bit, knowing full well that someone might be able to find its location, was that good, evil, or neutral. Its tricky, and there is a no right answer. Bioware is very simplistic in their modeling, Insult someone, or start a fight and that is bad. Be a panzy ass and that is good, all very obvious.

EDIT:

BTW, does anyone know of Bioware's AI in combat for using feats in combat was substituded with a random number generator, because it seems to be completely random, with absolutely no logic whatsoever, with the exception of healing.

 

[Azael]

Insofar as HK-47 himself goes, Asimov's laws of robotics are very interesting and all... not sure how that kind of concept would work in practice, though, but it might work (C-3PO never engaged in combat, after all). When in the Star Wars universe, however, one must make Star Wars robots and not Asimov robots... and Star Wars robots are fairly colorful individuals pretty much as a rule, it seems.

Well, C3-PO sort of engaged in combat in Episode 2, but it's better that movie is forgotten. On the subject of Asimov, a Foundation CRPG could be really cool *hint hint*.

Personally, I think I'm happier with the writing I did on Jolee, but this award was for Most Original Character... which I interpret as HK-47 being funny and memorable. Certainly a lot of people liked him a lot, which is cool, and certainly recognition is always nice.

Jolee had some good stuff, but he didn't call people meatbags. Besides, grumpy old men have been done before while homocidal droids are more rare.

 

[Volourn]

You obviously haven't played enough BIO games. There are more than few examples of not so clear cut situations that can be labeled black, and white.

 

[Dgaider]

On the subject of Asimov, a Foundation CRPG could be really cool *hint hint*.

Funny, some of us were discussing this just last week.

Not so sure what kind of setting the Foundation universe would make, exactly. The books, while excellent, were very political in their scope and passed quickly through numerous time periods. I'd especially have trouble trying to fit the third book into an RPG format... and "Foundation and Earth" is really best just ignored completely.

---------------

Incidentally, on the subject of KotOR being very "black and white", I'd have to agree to an extent. Star Wars is very much a Space Opera where literal good and evil exists. We're talking about a universe where getting made can make you "become evil" almost instantly.

We tried to make the various situations as complex as we could, but in the end you're in a paradigm where you're going to have to assign "this is good" and "this is bad" to things just because a call has to be made one way or the other. Call it simplistic if you wish, but it isn't a system that is designed to be morally complex any more than D&D's alignment system is, is it?

 

[triCritical]

You obviously haven't played enough BIO games. There are more than few examples of not so clear cut situations that can be labeled black, and white.

I have played everyone except the NWN expansions. Never saw anything that was a shade a gray. Anyhow to be completely honest I have no problems black, or white. But its pretty damn obvious its black and white in KotOR. For that matter its good, or stupid bad but good in the BG's and this was only slightly improved in NWN. I sincerely believe that there GOOD and EVIL was a huge improvement.

my problem

and I will repeat from my HK post was that Good and Evil were pretty much the same damn game. I thought it would be fun to play KotOR two times on Taris, until I finally realized no matter how I play I am going to still have to do all the lame and inconcievable plot devices. Couple this with the monotanous combat and I ended up getting to the TWIST and not even wanting to finish.

ROELPLAYINGE does not equal dialogue choices. Heck, Bioware games playout a lot like a simplified version of the old "choose your own adventure books", which seem like they have choices but the reality is they are not roleplaying and they are completely linear.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Star Wars is very much a Space Opera where literal good and evil exists.

They do exist, but it doesn't mean that there is a void between them.

We're talking about a universe where getting made can make you "become evil" almost instantly.

Once again, this is an extreme case, not a rule. The SW setting is known for temptation of the Dark Side, not for instant transformations. Granted, you didn't become evil instantly in KOTOR, but the choices were plain and obvious in most cases. You weren't tempted, you chose to be evil.

We tried to make the various situations as complex as we could, but in the end you're in a paradigm where you're going to have to assign "this is good" and "this is bad" to things just because a call has to be made one way or the other.

Out of curiosity, why there was no option to join the Sith? The Sith were there, there were some anti-republic missions in the game as well, etc. Why didn't Bioware connect the dots? It would have made sense. Also, why there was no option to play as the real Revan (as in the Dark Lord, not some student) at the Academy?

Call it simplistic if you wish, but it isn't a system that is designed to be morally complex any more than D&D's alignment system is, is it?

Last time I checked, 9 was more then 2. Way more.

 

[triCritical]

Incidentally, on the subject of KotOR being very "black and white", I'd have to agree to an extent. Star Wars is very much a Space Opera where literal good and evil exists. We're talking about a universe where getting made can make you "become evil" almost instantly.

We tried to make the various situations as complex as we could, but in the end you're in a paradigm where you're going to have to assign "this is good" and "this is bad" to things just because a call has to be made one way or the other. Call it simplistic if you wish, but it isn't a system that is designed to be morally complex any more than D&D's alignment system is, is it?

It doesn't need to be complex, its a XBOX port. What needs to happen is that in the end the good path should feel different from the bad path. In other words, take your exponential theory on non-linearity and reduce it to two. Instead of making the evil character do a swoop race, instead allow him to meet up with the mandalorian and slaughter everyone in the bad gang using brute force. Yeah, a lot of the quest will have have multiple solutions and hence more work. So don't spend so much time doing the lip syncing, and throw out the mini games. Those things are fluff anyway and don't add any real substance to the game.

Furthermore, BIOWARE NEEDS TO REALIZE THERE COMBAT IS BORING!!!!!!!!! So stop making me do so god damn much of it. This is the second game you guys have made that I literally could not finish because of the combat. Watching my character do animations is not k3wl. Now if your game is going to have multiple solutions in Dark and Light then allow some character breaks in combat. Taris, initially was great offering a way to avoid alot of combat, but at some point someone decided to switch back to same'ol Bioware hack and slash. Hell was I playing Icewind Dale on the Wookie planet, I mean there was just one linear path and plenty of monotanous combat.

So in the end certain quest might have 3, or possibly 4 solutions. So again resources? Well cut out a few levels and remove some more bells and whistles. Takes the puzzles and inconcievable quest out of Taris, and Bioware is well on there way to making their first CRPG that even the ZAELOTES will love. Given that combat, especially the KotOR combat engine is made a lot more options. Especially since Luke Skywalker was able to make it from the care bear planet to the death star without any tough combat. Just don't make me use speeders either.

Again, good and bad is not bad if that is the kind of game you are trying to design. My main problem is how good and bad result in the same game. Yes I would prefer moral ambiguity, but I this is not Fallout, where the premise has been described as understanding the moral/social situations in a very different world. Of course if your goal is to say that there should only be one way to play through our games, because statistics on our core demographics show that 78.8 % will only play through 62.4% of the game, then my argument is moot. I am most certainly in the minority, but that is fine, and why I hang out on these here boards with other people in the minority. Afterall I favor choice over story, non-linearity over extensive character developement and small numbers of tactical combat encounters over many rendundant combat cycles.

 

[Sol Invictus]

that Kobold in Shadows/HOTU that even had his own romance because the fans wanted it.

Ummm... yeah... no, there was no kobold romance anywhere and fans never asked for that, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Well, okay. I was just being a dick. I didn't get that far into HOTU so as far as my opinion is concerned about the Kobold NPC, my opinion is worthless here. I was just relating to some stuff people on the NWN forum were talking about pertaining to the character.

For what it's worth, I loved HK47.

 

[Dgaider]

They do exist, but it doesn't mean that there is a void between them.

True, but the themes in Star Wars don't deal with the void between. The themes deal with good and evil as very present and real polar opposites.

Once again, this is an extreme case, not a rule. The SW setting is known for temptation of the Dark Side, not for instant transformations. Granted, you didn't become evil instantly in KOTOR, but the choices were plain and obvious in most cases. You weren't tempted, you chose to be evil.

That's splitting hairs. The player chooses to be evil, yes, but that is because he is not his character. In terms of how the story deals with the character he is still being tempted to the Dark Side.

Edit: After thinking about this for a while longer, I think I may have misinterpreted what you were getting at. We did try to make the moral situations varied, but the choice of it being Light Side or Dark Side in nature was made deliberately obvious. There was an effort to always let the player know what decision he was making when taking an action as it was felt that players might get frustrated if they selected what they thought was a Light/Dark action and it turned out to be the opposite. Our thinking isn't always the player's thinking, so we can't afford to be ambiguous when there is an in-game mechanic for good and evil that directly affects the character. I can't say that I agreed with that reasoning in every case (as maintaining moral ambiguity is better from a solely story standpoint) but I can see the method behind the madness.

Out of curiosity, why there was no option to join the Sith?

I could see a scenario where one might join the Sith in order to infiltrate the organization, but that's opening up a completely divergent plotline (which might be cool to do if one had the time, perhaps)... and one whose usefulness is pretty suspect in any case. The Sith is the organization you are fighting against, whether you are Light Side or Dark Side, and entering the Sith at the Academy level (which is your only real opportunity) isn't going to get you far enough fast enough.

Some players like to sit back and think that "joining the Sith" would have been really cool, etc., but that's intended to be the reward of the Dark Side as a whole: you take over the Sith by killing Darth Malak, not by pretending to be a Sith padawan fresh out of the Academy.

Also, why there was no option to play as the real Revan (as in the Dark Lord, not some student) at the Academy?

To what end? You walk in, say "I am Revan, fear me!" and a whole group of folks at the Academy who have never even seen Revan before... do what? Alert Malak, probably. I don't really see what advantage you would expect to achieve by openly declaring yourself Revan. I suppose we could have let the player do it and just slaughter his way through the academy to start with, but like a supposed infiltration route there's really only time to do so much.

Last time I checked, 9 was more then 2. Way more.

True, but only to an extent. One doesn't have to discuss D&D's alignment system for very long to reach the conclusion that it's terrible in portraying any kind of moral complexity. Better that Dark Side/Light Side, I'll grant you that, but still not complex in any sense of the word.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

We're talking about a universe where getting made can make you "become evil" almost instantly.

Once again, this is an extreme case, not a rule. The SW setting is known for temptation of the Dark Side, not for instant transformations. Granted, you didn't become evil instantly in KOTOR, but the choices were plain and obvious in most cases. You weren't tempted, you chose to be evil.

I agree with this. No matter the situation, good and evil are present for most of the time, but becoming either isn't as linear (or shouldn't be) as following option A or B. Shades of grey definetely make situations much more interesting, the best example being that of "good intentions going to hell". You can devise a situation where the player may have to decide between helping someone or not, but deciding to help the person may turn out to be a bad choice, if the help you're giving has an unspecified purpose, or a shady one. Or deciding to help may even be a fruitless endeavour, leaving the character to question himself if the decision was a good one.

Suppose a weak old man asks for your help in stopping a ruffian who is chasing him. Lets say you agree. You meet the ruffian, and decide to kill him before he could reach the old man. Later you find out the "weak old man" was an assassin who has a bounty on his head and not only did you let him go, you manage to kill off one local high ranking officer in the process. Or deciding to save a weak and dwindling tribe from the assault of rogues. Lets say you accept to save them, regardless of there being a possible reward or not. Lets say that despite your best efforts, they die. In fact, they were meant to die as there was a spy no one was aware of, not even the player. This could lead the character into questioning the validity of his own actions, of his faith in good.

Then there are also the subtle cases, such as manipulating an NPC with the Force to achieve success.

Watching my character do animations is not k3wl.

You wouldn't be saying that if your character was doing his animations on Aribeth.

 

[triCritical]

You wouldn't be saying that if your character was doing his animations on Aribeth.

As long as its OK with my wife. :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I could see a scenario where one might join the Sith in order to infiltrate the organization, but that's opening up a completely divergent plotline (which might be cool to do if one had the time, perhaps)... and one whose usefulness is pretty suspect in any case. The Sith is the organization you are fighting against, whether you are Light Side or Dark Side, and entering the Sith at the Academy level (which is your only real opportunity) isn't going to get you far enough fast enough.

Some players like to sit back and think that "joining the Sith" would have been really cool, etc., but that's intended to be the reward of the Dark Side as a whole: you take over the Sith by killing Darth Malak, not by pretending to be a Sith padawan fresh out of the Academy.

A Dark character isn't fighting against the Sith, he's fighting againt Malak. There is no reason for that character to help the Republic, and act against the Sith's interests. It wouldn't have taken much time, because everything was there. The Sith on Taris were controlling the planet but were having difficulties on the lower levels. You could have offered them to deal with the both gangs, thus getting to Bastilla first and sabotaging the Sith's efforts to find her. Then on Manaan, you could have helped the Sith to destroy the Republic's underwater installation, etc. Like I said, everything was already there, the factions, the missions, etc, all you had to do was connect the dots.

To what end? You walk in, say "I am Revan, fear me!" and a whole group of folks at the Academy who have never even seen Revan before... do what?

You have probably already forgotten that, but one of the options to get accepted is to tell Yuthura "I'm Revan, fear me". SInce you do that, it would have been logical not only to say that you're Revan, but to behave like one as well, especially considering that one of the options is to kill everybody there. At this point you can defeat Malak easily so might as well let him know that you're coming. :twisted:

 

[axel]

[...]There was an effort to always let the player know what decision he was making when taking an action as it was felt that players might get frustrated if they selected what they thought was a Light/Dark action and it turned out to be the opposite.[...].

There's this part in Arcanum I remember, when you're in Tarant and the fortune teller asks you to get her a new crystal ball. I thought it was just another fed-ex quest invovling murder and mayhem, which my half orc liked so I of course agreed. But when I arrived at Madame Tousades (I think that was her name) place and talked with her, she pulled that whole voodoo witch act on me. Totally unexpected. Then she asked me to choose! To choose! OMG!! I had no idea what any of the diologue options would result in. Was she good? Was she evil? Would she curse me? Kill me? Would the whole city end up attacking me? I didn't know....

I don't even remember what I replied with with that particular character, although I do believe I have since tried most of the options with subsequent characters, but I do remember that moment where I sat there trying to decied what to do. That type of tension is what I want to feel when I play an RPG. I want to not know what's going to happen and just have pick one and find out. I'm not there to build the "best" story, I'm just there for the experiance.

 

[Schadenfreude]

To my way of thinking, the morality system of KOTOR is hampered by the conventions of the RPG formula itself. Why would a Jedi of either Dark or Light side stoop to stripping credits and gear from a fallen foe, let alone a fellow Jedi? If they are akin to the samurai of ancient Japan, didn't the samurai code hold that sort of behavior in contempt? This is why I couldn't really get into KOTOR despite my best efforts It felt too much like a Star Wars skin grafted onto what was, at heart, the same old RPG I've played dozens of times, albeit with extra bells and whistles. It didn't feel like a game designed as a Star Wars experience from the inside out, truly reflecting the spirit and values of that saga. It was more like "Hey, let's do Baldur's Gate...<i>in the Star Wars universe!</i>"

A totally radical reworking of the traditional RPG may be too much to ask, but I wish the industry would make stronger moves in that direction and, to drag out a moldy cliche, think outside the box. The acclaim for KOTOR is a little dismaying because it feels more like an affirmation of the same old, same old (but bigger! and flashier!) instead of a push for real innovation in gameplay. IMHO.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Actually, that's a great quote, I shall add this one to my collection:

it was felt that players might get frustrated if they selected what they thought was a Light/Dark action and it turned out to be the opposite.

God forbid, players would think about choices they make instead of picking the ones marked "light" or "dark". Imagine, little morons may get frustrated if their spotless Light Jedi would make an error in judgement and take a step toward the Dark Side.

David, you remember that temptation thing I asked you about? Well, that would have been it if Bioware didn't kill it with black-n-white choices.

 

[Nomad]

Black and white choices have nothing to do with temptation. It isn't dramatic if you make the wrong decision for the wrong reason - it's sad, unfortunate or, in the case of video games, bad design. Temptation is created by offering the player a _clear_ choice between two or more competing values that he or she wants to pursue.

eg:

I want to save the girl but I want revenge on my enemy.

I want to help someone out but I need money to get that next item.

I want to help someone out but if I take the money, I can use it to help even more people and besides the guy can spare the money whereas I really need it.

That's temptation.

What's even better, is seeing a series of those choices lead you down a path that you didn't want to go. The problem is accomplishing this in a non-linear fashion.


N.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Black and white choices have nothing to do with temptation. It isn't dramatic if you make the wrong decision for the wrong reason - it's sad, unfortunate or, in the case of video games, bad design. Temptation is created by offering the player a _clear_ choice between two or more competing values that he or she wants to pursue.

Not necessary. In the SW universe, imo, temptation also takes form of acting without thinking, being driven by emotions (Anakin killing the raiders on Tatooine), etc.

I want to save the girl but I want revenge on my enemy.

I want to help someone out but I need money to get that next item.

I want to help someone out but if I take the money, I can use it to help even more people and besides the guy can spare the money whereas I really need it.

That's temptation.

I don't really see a Light Jedi making a wrong choice in any of these situations.

 

[Voss]

and, except for the first one, they really don't fit SW.
Money? Stuff?
What?

I think the big problem with the Kotor was there was never a choice or temptation for either the player or the character... it was just a fairly straightforward 'Do I want to be Light or Dark this game' (or this choice). Theres no emotional investment at all.

Part of it is simply because the character has no personal connections whatsoever- its hard to fall into anger (or work hard to overcome it) when things are happening to complete strangers. (compared to say, mother getting tortured or someone threatening to kill/torture a sister/friend/love itnerest, or overconfidently walking into a crimelords palace, choking guards in a flagrant display of power while using friends as tools to rescue other friends)

 

[Dgaider]

Okay, well, those are some interesting opinions. A bit idealistic, perhaps, but that's not surprising. My fault for turning the topic away from HK-47 to begin with, I guess.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Does it mean that you won't comment on our idealistic opinions? Come on, David, play with us

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think what Dave is trying to say is that they're interesting opinions, but we're being idealists in trying to make it seem these options would fit the game. I personally think they would, but i also think they might not fit in in context of what was planned for the game. One thing is to have a handful of good ideas, the other is being confronted with a market filled with people who really couldn't give a damn about them.


If this isn't what he meant, er, whatever. I'm not a diviner.

 

[Voss]

You're probably on the right track though.

I was thinking about my earlier post, and this my help clarify what I was trying to say- with the Light/Dark dichotomy and the fact that the character gained light or dark points for certain actions, a lot of the choices (at least on the players end) boiled down to the deliberate chasing of Light/Dark points, rather than focusing on the real consequences of the choices themselves, and thats why it came across (at least to me) somewhat artificial and disconnected.

Basically, when something gets listed as a number that can be tracked, people will treat it as just another stat- something to tweak or min/max, which devalues the deeper meaning of it.

 

[Dgaider]

I think what Dave is trying to say is that they're interesting opinions, but we're being idealists in trying to make it seem these options would fit the game. I personally think they would, but i also think they might not fit in in context of what was planned for the game. One thing is to have a handful of good ideas, the other is being confronted with a market filled with people who really couldn't give a damn about them.

Yes, that's pretty much it. I don't disagree with a lot of the points brought up... they're fine, but largely in theory only.

Basically, when something gets listed as a number that can be tracked, people will treat it as just another stat- something to tweak or min/max, which devalues the deeper meaning of it.

I agree with that. Not that not doing so was an option in this case, I'm afraid. Ideally, I'd prefer not to track moral alignment with a number or category at all.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think what Dave is trying to say is that they're interesting opinions, but we're being idealists in trying to make it seem these options would fit the game. I personally think they would, but i also think they might not fit in in context of what was planned for the game. One thing is to have a handful of good ideas, the other is being confronted with a market filled with people who really couldn't give a damn about them.

Yes, that's pretty much it. I don't disagree with a lot of the points brought up... they're fine, but largely in theory only.

Can you elaborate? It's not that I don't believe you, Dave, I do, but I'd really like to know why some of the points wouldn't work in reality.

Edit: I would be very interested to continue our discussion about joining the Sith.