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Kerbal Space Program

potatojohn

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Try going for Jool. It has the biggest SOI.

If you don't get an encounter when the orbits meet then just keep burning, you should still get one either sooner or later at the expanding intersections. It's just less optimal.

The phase and ejection angles are important. There's no shame in using mechjeb or adamksp to display them. I find KSP without mechjeb to be pretty tedious. I don't want to spend my time aligning my craft when I can just press the prograde button like in orbiter.
 

Burning Bridges

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The illustrated guide at http://ksp.olex.biz/ sounds like a nice idea but right now this is more like a table. There is only one phase angle for every planet.

The question is what do you use to get the correct angles?? I am certainly not going to hold a protractor to the screen as some people suggest :)

The new version of Mechjeb has phase angles but no ejection angle. Also there is a difference of 5-6 deg between AdamKSP and Mechjeb, so one of the two will be useless. Some preliminary research suggests that it's Mechjeb that has wrong angles.
 

potatojohn

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The ejection angle in mechjeb is called 'angle to prograde' in the orbital information tab.

What do you mean how you get the correct angles? You go to the launch pad and warp at 100K until the angle is right.
 

Burning Bridges

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I meant how to measure them with the required precision. Another problem is that, since acceleration takes some time, isn't it totally impossible to get the ejection angle right to fractions of a degree? Is the given value the point where I should begin acceleration or should it be where I am at half time of the burn?

But whatever, using the adamksp angles which were more or less right, and several mid course corrections, I had my first Duna encounter, and got into a totally crappy orbit. Mechjeb values were completely different to adamksp (for now I assume adamksp to be the one with the correct ones).

Once I had the encounter I still needed to understand if to slow down or accelerate to get as close to the planet as possible. From then it was no problem to get into better and better orbit, I have enough practiced this on Kerbin and its Moon.

And it seems I grossly overestimated the amount of fuel required. A Nerva engine and two tanks turned out to be more fuel reserves than I need. I now sit in Duna orbit still with 1+1/2 tanks which I wont need, plus the 1/2 tank fuel in my lander. That means I probably don't even need a heavy nuclear engine to fly to Duna.

What's great is that the mini probe experiment also worked right in the first attempt. That means, I ejected some "debris" with a parachute (a "probe" - consisting of decoupler, mechjeb, backshell and parachute), the parachute actually deployed (!) and it came down in one piece.

Since I cannot brake a part once it is separated, I brought the probe on a suborbital trajectory, separated, then accelerated my main spaceship into an orbit again.

KSP 2012-09-28 12-46-10-62.jpg


I can now switch to my separate probe, and watch the landing descent while my main spaceship circles in orbit.

KSP 2012-09-28 12-51-18-93.jpg


One lesson I learned is that the athmosphere is VERY thin, and the parachutes will open VERY late. All the same, the probe came down safely, either because I was lucky or because I had tested it many times on Earth. It seems a very good construction.

KSP 2012-09-28 12-52-24-62.jpg


Once the parachute opens, it will reduce your speed quickly. But look at the height!!

KSP 2012-09-28 12-52-26-28.jpg


All the same, the probe came down with almost 8m/s, which was fast but still within the limits. I'll see later what happens when I bring down the heavy main lander (which has four parachutes instead of one)

KSP 2012-09-28 12-53-18-12.jpg


The mini probe is interesting inasfar as a planetary Mission could consist of several probes and land at different places. As long as the encounters are so difficult ad time comsuming as they are now, it seems worthwile to be able to make more than one landing attempt per mission.

There is also a mod that allows controlling debris seperately (but currently not functional with the latest version), so perhaps I could use this in the future for fully controlled multipart missions.
 

potatojohn

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You do need fuel if you want to get back...

Incidentally, it turns out that two nuclear engines are perfect for Duna. They operate at something like 95% efficiency at the surface and the thrust is more than enough to take off again.

0fcit.png
 

Burning Bridges

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Cool. but this looks too heavy for my taste, you probably need a monster of a rocket to launch it.

What do you mean with "perfect"? Under the low gravity, I think any engine can take you off from Duna, it's just extremely inefficient to carry the fuel to the surface and then launch it up again. Orbital rendezvous would be ideal here, and I think I will not attempt return flights before it is implemented.

As I said, I have left a nerva with 1.5 tanks in orbit, so if I could dock with it, I could return.
 

Burning Bridges

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My first powered / parachute descent also went well, here are some pictures.

Getting to Duna was really hard, but then I made two successful landings in the first attempt - so my first Duna mission was a complete success :)

KSP 2012-09-28 15-05-06-25.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-05-26-25.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-11-53-46.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-12-12-51.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-12-13-92.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-14-11-78.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-14-19-54.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-15-52-51.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-16-34-73.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-31-05-90.jpg


KSP 2012-09-28 15-40-36-20.jpg
 

Burning Bridges

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Question, is it possible that the ground on Duna is softer than on the Moon? Both my probe and lander tilted sideways, can you see it?

KSP 2012-09-28 15-16-15-57.jpg
 

potatojohn

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I've not seen that before. Was it a hard landing?

The full rocket for that lander was about 300 tons iirc. 300t to get 21t to the surface of another planet isn't too bad is it? I could probably optimize it further.

As for lander vs. lander + orbiter I'm not sure if it's worth the extra complications to save a bit of fuel.
 

potatojohn

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324 tons, actually.

All five engines fire at the same time. The outer tanks feed into the middle one and are discarded about 2/3 into orbit. Then the middle one completes it and does 90% of the transfer burn.

Works really well, which was surprising since it was the first design I tried.

5gKpl.png
 

Burning Bridges

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For some reason I don't use the three man shuttle and the large 3m parts.

To bring 1 astronaut, or unmanned pods to Duna, 75-100t seems enough.

KSP 2012-09-29 15-58-16-14.jpg


Apart from the Nerva, the Aerospike is the most efficient engine and it has the advantage that it has lots of thrust for the weight. This design with aerospikes does 5.500 m/s, and should be able to reach Duna without a third stage. If I use a third stage (nuclear engine of course), the vmax is higher, but the launch window may be harder to hit. Remember what I wrote about the ejection angle, isn't it a huge disadvantage if the acceleration takes 10 times longer, during which the anlge changes all the time?

And here is the more clumsy design that I used on my first flight. The figures are not really relevant because it used an unmanned pod. But weight was a bit over 90t. Most of the payload was wasted anyway, because I had 1.5 tanks fuel that I never used.

KSP 2012-09-29 11-14-08-35.jpg
 

Hamziz

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And here is the more clumsy design that I used on my first flight. The figures are not really relevant because it used an unmanned pod. But weight was a bit over 90t. Most of the payload was wasted anyway, because I had 1.5 tanks fuel that I never used.

I noticed you don't use stability struts between the last two/three stages, which, in addition to being pretty tall, are only one tank wide. For me, that kind of configuration always resulted in a gradually worsening wobbliness during launch, ultimately resulting in the failure of the connection between one of the engines and the stage below it, especially if the first stage had a large amount of thrust. Did that not happen with this one?
 

Burning Bridges

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I don't think I understand. The point of adding the struts is to remove the wobbliness, not to create it. I usually test rockets that may wobble and break apart until I get the basic configuration and weight, and only at the very end the struts and other stuff is added.
 

Burning Bridges

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EDIT: Sorry

Yes, I didn't use struts between the upper stages, they would make the ship a bit more stable, but it worked without them.

And now that I'm mostly working on that 75 ton ship, it is not necessary anymore.

Also be a bit careful with the 3m engines. The small one is useless (perhaps the reason for DU's failure). The big one has way too much thrust (watch how the G-meter climbs into red when the fuel is almost used up), it could actually destroy your rocket.
 

Burning Bridges

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Using Adamksp, I find planetary rendezvous still a bit too rough. The problem is that the two required angles (planetary phase and ejection) don't concide. This is more and more of a problem the higher the orbit gets. A tool is needed that calculates slightly adjusted values.
 

potatojohn

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What do you mean? Unless you have some super specific requirements the angles don't need to be super accurate. Phase angle within 0.5deg should be okay. Ejection angle... I don't even know. The thing goes totally out of whack when you're burning anyway and it still seems to work.
 

Burning Bridges

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A half degree? So far I tried three times with Duna and it worked only once. The last time planetary phase angle was off by 0.6 degrees which could not be improved because otherwise the ejection angle would be off by 180 degree or so. What I would have needed were exact ejection and velocity for this angle not the fixed values from a table.

At least it worked in one attempt, so I think with better tools and improvements it will be fun to rendezvous with planets. But right now it does not feel right to prepare and fly for hours and then miss the encounter.
 

potatojohn

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Maybe your solar orbit was inclined too much and you just missed Duna SOI vertically? Otherwise if you burn past where the orbits are tangent you should get an encounter at one of the intersections eventually.
 

Burning Bridges

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No I don't think it's the inclination. When I line up the orbits I am always in the ecliptic plane. Visually at least :)

I think I am too far away. In order to get a gravitational pull I need to encounter the Duna system almost precisely (I noticed I have to get inside the orbit of Ike to get a pull from Duna that pulls me around). And for that I have to be at the intersection with Dunas orbit exactly the same time as the planet itself. But most of the time my spaceship arrives too early or to late. That's also the reason why it is not enough to wait until the alignment takes place after some orbits by accident - it just never happened.

So in the end the question is at which distance to a planet the gravitational pull begins. It might be a stupid question, but does mass have something to do with that? I noticed that my spacecraft are light compared to yours, just 5-10 tons or so. Intuition tells that mass is irrelevant, but could it be that perhaps it has an influence?

Gravitational attraction is F = G(mass1*mass2)/D squared

That means for a larger spacecraft the force is thereby higher, but if the spacecraft is heavier, the larger force will result in exactly the same acceleration, right?
 

potatojohn

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I don't think ship mass has much to do with it. I seem to enter Duna SOI at about 40M.

Anyway, here's my proudest achievement so far: the Dongs Explorer, a 54t ship that's able to go to Duna and back (12.5t to orbit, 8t to Duna).

MPjzB.jpg
 

potatojohn

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Being worked on right now:
Harvester: Maneuver Notes (Nodes?)
  • The ability to plot out the effects of a burn before performing it
  • intended to take the guess work out of orbital maneuvers
  • Will eventually be used to create flight plans for unmanned missions
Mu: Action Groups System
  • Will completely replace the current staging system
  • Staging will be entirely customizable, more user friendly
  • Key binded staging
    • 30+ actions, 8 have default keys, others can be added in via options
C7: Part Module System
  • Parts will have functions and requirements
    • Examples: Jet engines will require Intakes
Nova: New parts
New Shaders
 

Burning Bridges

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I am always interested in more efficient designs. In fact I actually play the game more to design spacecraft and rockets than actually fly them.

I can't completely figure out how your rocket works. For example, you use two jet engines, and by your tank configuration, you cannot simply jettison them at 20km. Is there a trick to disable individual engines?
 

potatojohn

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The tanks are connected like this: jet -> side aerospike -> center aerospike.

So the jet tanks feed all engines, run out at about 12km and are dumped, and only then the side aerospike tanks start being used.

Finally those are dumped too and the center aerospike tank is enough to put it into 80km orbit with 1/2 of the tank left.

Transfer and landing on Duna takes about 1/2 of the side tanks on the upper stage.

Ascent from Duna takes the other half plus a bit of the center tank.

Transfer to Kerbin leaves about half of the center tank.

So in theory the weight could be reduced even more.
 

Burning Bridges

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If you're dumping the engines, I see no decouplers.

Or are the four tanks in the lateral stacks not all connected?
 

potatojohn

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Hm? The decuplers are on the bottom center tank.

The upper stage has double decuplers for extra clearance.

Here's the craft file: http://pastebin.com/mShi87DY, save it as Dongs.craft and put it into saves/(your space program)/Ships/VAB/
 

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