Anime JRPG combat vs western blobber style combat - Why all the hate?

[Athelas]

LOL, what are some western rpgs with good combat that don't have any hp bloat?

The dragons in Baldur's Gate 2, which are supposed to be the most fearsome of enemies, have a little over a 100 HP. Meanwhile in jRPG's, it's not uncommon to face bosses with upwards of a 100k HP.

 

[TheGreatOne]

There are 4 types of JRPG combat and 6 types of WRPG combat: TB blobber, TPP+TB/ATB (Final fantasy combat), SRPG (=isometric/topdown view+TB+movement+possibly terrain&initiative) and experiemental real time/RTWP systems where as Western games have TB blobber, RT blobber, tactical (iso/topdown+movement+TB+possibly terrain&initiative), RTwP (Infinity engine and modern), hack n slash (iso and over the shoulder/tpp) and FPS-RPG (I count UUW/AF in this category).
1. Wizardry combat
2. The most prominent battle system synonymous with JRPGs, and the only system that's exclusive to JRPGs (as TPP is meaningless from a gameplay perspective if there isn't any movement besides switching between back/front row like in some JRPGs). Usually sucks, but not any more so than vapid hack n slashing or poor RTwP games as TB systems aren't crippled by poor combat feel and there's the occasional boss or enemy type that forces you to switch your tactics. Only major exception (that I know of) being the Shin Megami Tensei games (which are unsurprisingly also Wizardry knock offs), as particularly Nocturne has a lot of depth for a battle system with no movement, which is fine example of how encounters force the players to use everything aspect of the system when you turn encounters so hard that you get crushed in an a round or two if you don't devise a some kind of working strategy.
3. SRPGs factor in movement and possibly intiative and terrain, so naturally they're closer to good turn based squad tactics/CRPG battle systems (some even rivaling them) and 4 depends a lot on the game whether it's any good or not (some have decent popamole combat that's shallow but unintrusive and decently executed, some are terrible and a handful are good, mainly the Souls games)

I guess that J_C is comparing JRPG types 1&2 with WRPG type 1 here.

LOL, what are some western rpgs with good combat that don't have any hp bloat?

The dragons in Baldur's Gate 2, which are supposed to be the most fearsome of enemies, have a little over a 100 HP. Meanwhile in jRPG's, it's not uncommon to face bosses with upwards of a 100k HP.

They had even less than that in some lower level goldbox games, 35-75 or so depending on the type and which level you were (as well as difficulty setting). Damn those awful D&D rules, it's a time a certain Joshua took RPGs to the next level with his revolutionary new system.

 

[J_C]

There are 4 types of JRPG combat and 6 types of WRPG combat: TB blobber, TPP+TB/ATB (Final fantasy combat), SRPG (=isometric/topdown view+TB+movement+possibly terrain&initiative) and experiemental real time/RTWP systems where as Western games have TB blobber, RT blobber, tactical (iso/topdown+movement+TB+possibly terrain&initiative), RTwP (Infinity engine and modern), hack n slash (iso and over the shoulder/tpp) and FPS-RPG (I count UUW/AF in this category).


I guess that J_C is comparing JRPG types 1&2 with WRPG type 1 here.

Something like that.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Baldur's Gate combat is good now. LOL. Maybe if you had said KotC you'd have had some sort of footing (except for the fact that the dragons/demons there have hundreds of hp.)

 

[Jaesun]

Planescape: Torment is still the best jRPG ever made.

 

[DraQ]

Natural evolution of TB blobber may very well lead to this:

and even RT blobbers (which traditionally have shit combat where the main antagonist is the interface more than anything else) that are also grid based may involve copious amount of tactical movement and environmental actions.

JPG style discrete combat screens with menu driven combat simply don't have much potential.

 

[Damned Registrations]

JPG style discrete combat screens with menu driven combat simply don't have much potential.

http://bof.wikia.com/wiki/Formation

Seems like a fair bit of potential to me.

 

[TheGreatOne]

If only they had localized Wizardry 8 in Japan, we might've seen some other developer try that style. It's mingblowing that no one since has tried anything like it. We need a wizardry 9 kickstarter so bad.

JPG style discrete combat screens with menu driven combat simply don't have much potential.

But they've managed to push that potential to its limits in Nocturne, which itself is a much higher standard as far as tactical complexity/ability to use varied tactics and difficulty are concerned than majority of RPG combat systems, including many TB games that do feature movement. Though obviously the next nessecary evolutionary step is a move towards SRPGs (ie adding movement to the menu driven combat), as Devil Survivor games had even more depth.
I guess you could still improve Nocturne's battle system with front and back rows (and have limited ranged in some abilities like in Soul hackers), maybe adding different attack types and more Wizardry 7 style exploration, since it already did feature some C&C. It might be a bit gimmicky, but if they were to make another game with 3+3 battle formation, then different demon types and alignments getting bonuses/negative modifiers for standing next to each other is another way to add more depth to the blobber formula. Kind of like getting extra attacks when you only had light/neutral/chaotic aligned demons in your party in Strange Journey. Chrono Trigger type team attacks between demons could be another possibility. Though when you stack power ups like that, then bosses would need to be tuned for optimal parties exploiting all the extra hits and power, because otherwise you could steamroll over them. That's the thing about having 2 rows of characters like in Soul Hackers (and having a large party in general): actually limiting the amount of characters the player controls is often good for depth because it means you have to make more hard sacrifices between choosing different characters with different abilities and spells, those SMT games being prime examples of that. DeSu>Nocturne>SH in terms of depth (SH is also a lot easier than those 2). You have to plan your routes, teams and spell load outs very meticolously before each battle in DeSu and study each individual enemy units spell weakenesses, strengths&spells/abilities (and which abilities can be skill cracked from them) and modify your teams accordingly.

Speaking of encounters, with more open-endedness there comes the question of balance, not in the JSE sense, but in the sense that are boss fights challenging enough if there aren't any mandatory roadblocks. Though the game did feature a lot of optional bosses and there was no equipment and slow stat development (1 stat/level, where as power creep is much greater in many other JRPGs) so grinding didn't help to overcome bosses nearly as much as in other games. They'd just need to figure out how to remove fusion level limits with out giving the player the ability to summon OP demons too early in the game, so that there would be no need to grind levels just to get some demons to encounter a boss.

Now that I think about it, there's definitely stilll potential left unexplored in the blobber genre (even in the pre-Wiz 8 style) that both JRPGs and CRPGs could try to tap into. Even though movement and everything that comes with it (LOS, terrain, Disgaea style puzzle stuff, interactivity with the environment D:OS style, backstabbing, formations, scouting, kiting etc), it is still nice to see new dungeon crawlers released as well. It breaks the monotony. Ditto for first person view action RPGs. As long isometric games with turn based combat, party creation and potentially some kind of AP system are the norm for CRPGs, all is good.

 

[DraQ]

JPG style discrete combat screens with menu driven combat simply don't have much potential.

http://bof.wikia.com/wiki/Formation

Seems like a fair bit of potential to me.

So when you look at Wiz8 screenshot you're incapable of seeing anything but the lower right corner?

And they say playing weeaboo games doesn't cause permanent neurological damage...

 

[Damned Registrations]

JPG style discrete combat screens with menu driven combat simply don't have much potential.

http://bof.wikia.com/wiki/Formation

Seems like a fair bit of potential to me.

So when you look at Wiz8 screenshot you're incapable of seeing anything but the lower right corner?

And they say playing weeaboo games doesn't cause permanent neurological damage...

What else was I supposed to notice? There was nothing there that hasn't been done before in a jrpg. I can't read your mind and infer whatever point you were trying to make about the superiority of Wiz8 over all things nipponese. I assumed you were talking about the formation thing because that's been more or less the point of this topic.

Arguing that a game has no potential because the interface is menu driven is the same shit as arguing turn based or isometric games have no potential because you can't bunny hop around and put buckets on people's heads.

Potential lies with the developers. You can add endless layers of depth to anything you want if you're so inclined. And that complexity can be interesting or shit depending on the skill of said developers.

 

[hoverdog]

posting in a J_C thread

 

[Athelas]

Arguing that a game has no potential because the interface is menu driven is the same shit as arguing turn based or isometric games have no potential because you can't bunny hop around and put buckets on people's heads.

That's a strawman...and a pretty silly comparison as well. In case the significance of something like positioning isn't obvious already, here is an example.

A character uses a spell that releases a gust of wind.

In a game with completely static positioning, it does damage to the enemies.

In a game with dynamic positioning, it can do damage, including friendly fire to allies, can knock both enemies and allies around and change their position on the battle field, can knock them into environmental hazards, etc.

You can add endless layers of depth to anything you want if you're so inclined.

You can, but it's better to have a solid foundation to work with. It's rather telling that many menu-driven jRPG's have incorporated real-time twitch elements and even quick-time events in their battle systems to spice them up. Not what I'd call 'endless layers of depth'.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's telling that many western rpgs have incorporated shitty romance elements. I guess that style just doesn't have any potential for good gameplay.

Plenty of jrpgs have dynamic positioning. So do plenty of western games where it basically adds nothing. Tell me, in what percentage of western games do you use a gust of wind to knock enemies into environmental hazards? Because that honestly sounds like a huge waste of fucking time to implement compared to adding something like morale or fatigue mechanics, which would be much more universally applicable to the combat.

You have your game with aspie level positioning that takes an hour to resolve a single attack because every last footstep being accounted for will add some infinitesimal level of depth to the combat, I'll play something that leaves the positioning in the abstract and instead derives depth from mechancs involving timing, teamwork, fatigue, morale and leadership. I'm sure your game revolving around choreography will be soooo good.

How is positioning more significant than any of the shit I just mentioned? What makes it inherently better? Nothing. If it were so god damned important Fallout would have great combat by default. Spoilers: it doesn't. It has shit combat and the positioning only hurts it because it makes it take longer to resolve. It would be far better off with jrpg style combat, where yours stats and equipment would be reflected in the battle, but it'd be over quickly and wouldn't involve 20 turns of kiting enemies around with a handgun.

 

[Athelas]

It's telling that many western rpgs have incorporated shitty romance elements. I guess that style just doesn't have any potential for good gameplay.

Strawman, again. The romance stuff doesn't have anything to do with the combat, whereas the examples I gave clearly show jRPG designers struggling to make their combat systems more complex.

If it were so god damned important Fallout would have great combat by default. Spoilers: it doesn't. It has shit combat and the positioning only hurts it because it makes it take longer to resolve.

Because you're controlling a single character in turn-based combat, which is the equivalent of using 100-dollar bills to wipe your ass, not because positioning doesn't have added value.

Tell me, in what percentage of western games do you use a gust of wind to knock enemies into environmental hazards?

Well, I'm actually playing a jRPG right now (Breath of Fire - Dragon Quarter) where you can do this sort of stuff. Pretty damn useful, but it's only possible because that game has movement and an action point system, unlike most of its jRPG peers. Also, Pillars of Eternity which has a spell called Winter Wind which knocks enemies back - useful if you can knock them into a Web.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The romance stuff has about as much to do with combat as Mario RPG combat has to do with Suikoden's. These are both nonsense arguments, that was my point.

And positioning didn't have added value in Fallout. It made shit worse. It's not some magical element that is always good. It's certainly not automatically better than alternative mechanics that could be used instead. It takes a lot of work to include something like grid based combat. If everyone is going to run at eachother with swords anyways, it's probably not worth the effort. Better to add in mechanics for what happens when two people on the same team attack at the same time, which is something that happens all the fucking time in RPGs, and I've never seen a western game address this at all. It's like a bad kung-fu movie where the badguys only attack in single file.

Hell, I'd kill just to have the cosmetic aspect worked out; the fact that sequential actors on the same team attacking in Suikoden move at the same time instead of one after another cuts the combat time down drastically. Why the fuck hasn't this been adopted by every game ever? Just have the 11 fucking radscorpions shuffle in my direction at once.

 

[Athelas]

And positioning didn't have added value in Fallout.

Because like I said, you're controlling a single character. Positioning becomes interesting when you have multiple characters to coordinate tactics with.

Better to add in mechanics for what happens when two people on the same team attack at the same time

Well, in a turn-based game they wouldn't be able to obviously, by the nature of taking turns. In a real-time game attacking the same target with multiple characters would have the benefit of continually staggering/interrupting that target.

Hell, I'd kill just to have the cosmetic aspect worked out; the fact that sequential actors on the same team attacking in Suikoden move at the same time instead of one after another cuts the combat time down drastically. Why the fuck hasn't this been adopted by every game ever? Just have the 11 fucking radscorpions shuffle in my direction at once.

This doesn't work in turn-based games with movement - 11 radscorpions moving at once would be a pathfinding clusterfuck. And a lot of turn-based games have some sort of system of attack of opportunity which relies on turns taking place separately.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's not a clusterfuck, the pathfinding is done as normal and then they're simply all animated at once. The only remotely challenging part is making them not clip through each other, which should be relatively trivial, just make them delay slightly if they would otherwise overlap.

Because like I said, you're controlling a single character. Positioning becomes interesting when you have multiple characters to coordinate tactics with.

Thats not the only requirement though. You need reasons for the positioning to matter, things like flanking bonuses or visual fields or varied terrain. Positioning is great in X-Com. You have line of sight problems to get around, destructable cover, an overwatch system that ties into it, terrain hazards like gas stations. Good stuff. It's pretty much worthless in Baldur's Gate (why isn't the simultaneous pathfinding there a clusterfuck huh?) where melee units just mash together mindlessly and there's no cover mechanics or line of sight to deal with. In KotC or goldbox games it's... passable. The discrete AoE of spells and turn based nature of combat makes for some interesting positioning strategy, but the lack of things like cover (except behind other units, lol) or difficult terrain made most of it a no-brainer. It was a lot of extra effort for a marginal benefit. Fireballs still generally hit all the enemies, mages avoided melee, etc. Not really any different from much simpler systems that required much less work to implement.

Positioning systems are just another tool in the development box. And it can be fucked up and wasted just like any other. Stating that they automatically make games better is as retarded as saying the same thing about inventory management, or hit locations, or equipment durability.

 

[Dorateen]

You can knock enemies back with a gust of wind spell in Might & Magic: Legacy. There is nothing that stops first-person perspective turn based combat from incorporating movement and positioning. As both Wizardry 8, and more recently MMX, demonstrate.

 

[Metro]

Some of us don't like blobbers, you know.

Yeah and you don't belong on the RPG Codex.

 

[Athelas]

Some of us don't like blobbers, you know.

Yeah and you don't belong on the RPG Codex.

Look at how many people brofisted that post.

 

[pakoito]

Some of us don't like blobbers, you know.

Yeah and you don't belong on the RPG Codex.

Look at how many people brofisted that post.

Is it just me that has qwerty12345 as his personal stalker?

 

[Gerrard]

Yeah, I downloaded the demo for that Etrian Odyssey 3DS game....christ, whoever designed those characters needs to be locked up. Like seriously. It's straight up pedo shit. I am not saying someone is a pedo for playing the games, but I would not be remotely fucking surprised if the artist responsible for that stuff gets arrested for child porn possession.

Joined: Jan 1 2015

Also, anime and its tropes makes me want to puke. You can deny it all you want, but anime is primarily targeted to children, and it shows.

Yep, shows aimed at children air at 2AM.

 

[J_C]

posting in a J_C thread

But just look at how fun the thread turned out. :D When I open a thread, I deliver.

 

[Xathrodox86]

I can say that while I like JRPG combat as much as any other western combat system (if done right), what kills me is the abundance of the random encoutners, which many JRPGs are at fault. If I can't take 10 steps without triggering a combat, I could slit my wrist after the 100th time.

That and the general silliness of most JRPG's plots. I mean, giant battle chickens? Really?

 

[mondblut]

So, I'm trying my hands on RPG Maker, and looked up some thread about it on the Codex. Although it was no surprise to me, that the basic reaction was: It is shit, it was strange to see that many hate RPG Maker, and JRPGs in general, because they have shit combat system. Meanwhile, JRPG combat is the closest we have to the oldschool wester RPG combat systems. Both have static combat, you have you line of heroes on the one side, and the enemy on the other. You take action one by one, using attack, magic, defense, using items or flee the battle.

Because there are right and wrong way to do anything. JRPGs have ridiculously inflated numbers, nonsense game mechanics where every unit is a speshul snowflake with magic farts and shit, epilepsy-inducing flashy bullshit onscreen everytime said magic farts are invoked, the combat is ass-slow because of that, the party is actually displayed onscreen hopping like retards on a spot, etc. Basically, this:

http://youtu.be/pNzFE8rNPQU?t=2m1s

In other words, they are indeed closest to oldschool RPG combat systems, if those systems were to be designed by a 10 years old who was fed nothing but LSD for his entire life.