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Jeff Vogel Soapbox Thread

Abelian

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Nov 17, 2013
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2,289
I find it sad how short the general public's attention span is. If a video game or movie is more than a year old, the collective conscious already relegates it the dustbin of history.

Sure, part of it is due to the technical limitations of the past, but if a video game was compelling enough to entertain its audience for hours on end twenty years ago, does it lose its entertainment value today to the extent that it's not even worth the price of one lunch?

That being said, the price depreciation works entirely in my favor since I have the patience (and a large video game backlog and enough replayable games) to wait until the inevitable deep discount sale (unless I care enough for the underdog developer to pay full price).
 

StaticSpine

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I find it sad how short the general public's attention span is. If a video game or movie is more than a year old, the collective conscious already relegates it the dustbin of history.
I think the problem is too much games on the market. Just too much, you barely have time to play games you want to and the new ones are still coming. A lot of indie devs, just look at Greenlight. Games are just getting lost in the endless river of releases.
 

Telengard

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New game releases actually reached their peak in 2008, and they have been in freefall ever since, heading down towards half of what they were. It is true that Steam has been adding more indie games than they used to. Probably in part because there's less first-stringers around to fill the ad slots. But even with the mess that is Greenlight, the indies they bring in is still only a fraction of the indie scene. The indies are now just in your face on Steam, instead of rotting away on indie aggregate websites, where everyone could safely ignore them.

The trouble during a downturn is, even though there's less competition around since so many have gone dodo, there's even less money sloshing around. So, everyone has got to fight over the trickle of money that's left around being spent on video games. However, that doesn't change what it takes to be a real success. The real successes stay real successes. The marginal successes, though, during a downturn, they have a real fight on their hands. Games that offer no unique hook, game that have no real gameplay, and all copycatters, they are duking it out over the meager leftovers after the frontline games have already hoovered up most of the available money. Which can lead to some really aggressive fighting, price slashes, and quick company collapses.

Mix that in with annualization and big money investment (or in other words, an industry that wants there to be a yearly production, consumption, and forgotten cycle), and you've got the modern day games market.
 

Perkel

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It's not a problem of too many games.
It is a problem of to many shitty games and "me too" games.
The one screaming about indie bubble is most of the time dude who didn't create ANY good game.

A good game. And this is a problem because most of them think that beautiful pixel art graphic + artsy story is a good game.
No it is not. It is shitty walking simulator that will only survive if its story or setpieces will blow people eyes from orbits.
If you can't do that then you have a shitty game.

Now let's look at indie example that actually don't have any problems:

Factorio devs. Those dudes were literally unknown for anyone nor any of them did any review or worked on games before (software engineers mostly).
They played minecraft with industrial mod. So one of them though lets create 2d isometric game that will deal with factories !

And bam they are now hiring (recently moved from their day jobs and rented their own studio) and from what i seen making fucking amazing game. They don't have problem with sales or publicity because they are making good fucking game and people simply want to play their game.

That is the point. You need to make good fucking games. If you make shitty games don't say that indie bubble is bursting.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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But, i just want people to praise me and give me money. What's this about having to work hard? Sounds like some kinda of patriarchal shit to me.
 

omega21

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Are you implying that my game about depression and abortion is not as important as your autistic space male simulators??? wow sounds like oppression to me better check your priv whitey
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
God damn it I thought there was a new Vogel rant. I'm disappointed now.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Blabla

...

The problem is too many games.

That's a lot of text for coming to this obvious conclusion.


Seriously. Increase in supply with a fixed demand curve (assuming new gamers can't shift it) will only decrease prices, aka margins, aka profitability.

I fail to see why this is such a hard concept to understand. Apparently the codex has a Vogel-hating fetish..which I don't blame. I never could finish the boring trash that was Avernum 1...
 

LESS T_T

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Codex 2014
New Vogel interview at IndieGames: http://indiegames.com/2015/02/interview_jeff_vogel_of_spider.html

Avernum 2: Crystal Souls is $20 on Steam, which is up from the $10 price point ofAvernum: Escape from the Pit and matches the price you charge for all of your games directly on your own site. What made you decide to initially charge less for your work on Steam?

Our new policy is to sell our new games for $20 everywhere. This is a fair price for niche products like huge retro RPGs, and early sales are strongly indicating that it was a wise choice.

For a while, we sold our games for less on Steam and similar services because that was what they wanted. It wasn't entirely my choice, and it's never wise to argue with Steam. While the Indie Bubble was raging, the policy was to charge only a little to shove product out the door as fast as possible. This is no longer a viable business path for people like me who sell more niche-type games.

I notice that you have a lot of demos available on your own web site, but the only demo I see up on Steam is for Avadon: The Black Fortress. Why is that?

Honestly, it's probably laziness on my part. I'm terrified of working with the Steam system, because I'm afraid I'll mess something up.

Also, it's not something that really gets requested. Most people who want to try a demo don't have a problem locating it on our site.

What do you plan to work on next? You released Avadon 2 between the most recent incarnations of Avernum and Avernum 2, so can we expect an Avadon 3?

Yep. Our next game will be Avadon 3: [Subtitle TBD], the conclusion of the Avadon trilogy. And then a rewrite of our enduringly most popular story, Avernum 3. And then I want to write a whole new game engine and setting.

A whole new engine, huh!
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
People will buy it for $10 on the first sale anyway. :M
Are you kidding? I've already got the entire back catalog of Spiderweb games. Probably $5 or under for me. :M

I probably should really dive in at some point. Only one I gave a solid poke at was Avadon which turned me off because of the combat feeling dull IIRC. Been a while. So many other games though they've never been super high on my list after that.
 

Infinitron

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Vogel weighs in on the rise of refunds: http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2015/07/indie-games-refunds-terror-and-taking.html

Indie Games, Refunds, Terror, and Taking “No” For an Answer


I, for one, welcome our new Washington overlords.

Two months ago, Steam, the imperial, dinosaur-sized seller of PC games online, announced that they would start offering refunds to unhappy customers. And about time, too.

We run Spiderweb Software, a small indie company who sells role-playing games to a tiny niche audience, and we could not be happier about this change. Our business has long had a policy of no-questions-asked refunds for people who bought games from us directly. Our policy is, simply, “If you aren’t happy with our game, we don’t want your money.”

So we were happy with Steam’s new policy even before we knew how much money we’d be losing. Running an ethical business means a lot to us. Of course, customers love it even more than we do.

Predictably, parts of the gaming press, ever eager to stoke controversy for easy clicks, used shaky evidence to make it seem like the refund policy was a big, objectionable thing for developers. Happily, the grumbling has died down, predictions of imminent indie destruction were groundless, and the policy looks like it’s here to stay.

On my end, our refund rate is about 5%. This is, from what I’ve heard, typical. Also, entirely acceptable. We can live with it. (Plus, refunds help to force swift, brutal justice on rushed, crappy PC ports.)

But I don’t want to be blasé about it. For a small business, a loss of 5% of sales can sometimes be a catastrophe. Changes are scary, especially changes that cost you money.

I wanted to say a little bit about why generous refunds are not only a good idea, but a huge long-term benefit for small, fragile developers like me. And yet, at the same time, some indies are nervous about the change, and they should be.

Giving refunds does change how indies need to think about what we make and what we charge for it. I have a bunch of thoughts about that. Lucky you.


I was curious what the first Google Image Search hit for "indie game developer" would be. (Source article, which is worth reading.)

Why We Need Refunds

I can deal with this one pretty quickly. It’s something I’ve written about a lot in the past.

If you sell PC games, there are generally three ways people can get your game super-cheap: Piracy. Sales. Bundles. If your game is only acquired in these ways, you will go out of business.

To survive selling indie games, you need to convince a bunch of users to pay full price for it. You need to get them to pay more than they know they need to. This is difficult, as people like to keep their money.

The best way to get people to pay the full price is to get them to like you. To make your customers emotionally invested in your survival. This is the great weapon of the small indie: People like us. They think we’re cool. This must be preserved at all costs.

That is why, when I saw a few indies publicly complaining about this inevitable, hugely popular change, all I could think was, “What are you DOING!? Don’t you realize you’re hurting us all?”

Yet I understand. I really do see why they freaked out, and I sympathize. I’m in the same boat. Indie games are different from the big AAA product, and it’s worth asking how the change will affect us.

Indie developers tend to be afraid of two things: That customers will want refunds because the games are too short. Or, that customers will want refunds because the games are too artsy.


I totally want there to be a market for shorter works of art. Like this one, which is absolutely fantastic.

The Two Hour Barrier

Steam’s stated refund policy is that you can get one if you’ve played the game for less than two hours. This invites the question: What happens if your game is less than two hours? Games like The Stanley Parable, Gone Home, or Dear Esther. Won’t customers play the whole thing and then get a refund?

First, this fear shows a really dark and depressing attitude towards your customers. If you really think the people who buy your games are such monsters, why are you writing games for them in the first place?

More importantly, if your games are not providing enough entertainment for the price you are charging, do you really think denying refunds will save you? It will delay the demise of your business, sure. But if people feel ripped off buying one indie game, best of luck trying to get them to ever buy a second one.

I don’t want to entirely dismiss this problem. Suppose you really want to write 30 minute games. I think a game this short can be really cool, and, if it’s good, people will want to support you and won’t ask for refunds. I really think this will be the case, and I have not heard news of huge refund rates from authors of short games. I can be proven wrong, but I don’t think I will be.

Suppose refunds do become a problem for small games. Keeping the money of unhappy customers is still not the answer. Maybe the games need to be sold in bundles. Or maybe they need to be better. Or maybe, in the end, there won’t be much room in the market for smaller games, and they will just need to be longer.

I don’t currently see a big market for 3 minute games, no matter how clever. Similarly, the markets for short films and short stories are very small. Still, there is a market, and it might get bigger.

Let me be clear. I LOVE short, artistic stories, films, and games. I WANT them to have a market and be successful. Reality being otherwise frustrates me greatly, and I wish I could change it. Alas, I only get one vote.

In the long run, whether these markets develop will be up to the customer, refunds or not. No, calling gamers scummy or bigoted or entitled will not help.

Getting angry at capitalism won’t help either. I don’t know what alternate system you want to set up, but if it’s goal is to force people to buy things they don’t want, I’m not sure many will be on board.

If you can’t summon up enough trust or affection toward game buyers to convince them to surrender cash for your product, well, hobbyist game development is an old, beloved institution. Better people than you have fallen to the brutality of the free market.


Microsoft Stress Simulator 2013

Forcing Gamers To Eat Broccoli

I feel some indie devs have this attitude: Our job is to get people to play the artistic games we think they should, instead of the fun stuff they tend to prefer. Gamers shouldn’t be allowed to fill up on cake. They should be forced to buy our broccoli.

Consider one of the most discussed and successful games of the Great Indie Peak of 2013: Papers, Please! This is a game I loved, recommended, and wrote about. It combines story and gameplay in a truly unique and fascinating way. It’s cool beans.

However, Papers, Please! is also viscerally unpleasant to play. I don’t think this is a controversial statement. It is a game about quickly and perfectly doing mindless, repetitive tasks, with swift, merciless retaliation if you fail. It’s stressful, and it’s a bummer. That’s the whole point of the game. (Which, again, I loved.)

Papers, Please! takes about 5-6 hours for a playthrough, so it’s not too short for the 2 hour refund cutoff. To get a refund, players will have to give up on experiencing the whole story. So will they?

I hope they don’t get refunds. I hope Papers, Please! continues to make lots of money, so that more games like it are written. However, I don’t think most people want their limited video game relaxation time to be stressful and unpleasant. If someone buys this game and says, “This game is making me less happy, not more. I want my money back,” I don’t see how we can reasonably refuse.


A terrific sci-fi movie, AND it stars Scarlett Johansson? Who wouldn't go see that? (Answer: Everybody.)

Err In the Direction of Respect

I love indie games, and I love obscure foreign art films. I really wish I could share underwatched classics like Mr. Turner or Under the Skin with you. I just can’t force you.

Music, films, books, all have indie presses that sell obscure products for niche tastes. This is awesome. They are just smaller. They make less money. Someday, it might (will) be impossible to get rich writing artsy indie games. Following your dreams and making fulfilling work will have to be a large part of the reward. I’m in the same boat.

I say all this as someone who has skin in this game too. I write super-low-budget, old-school, turn-based, text-heavy RPGs. My product is more niche than any of the games listed above. I know every new game I release might be the one where gamers finally tire of what I sell.

It terrifies me, but I can take comfort in the way my fans want me to stay in business. They know they will be treated fairly when they buy my games, which makes them like me more.

And that, in the end, is how refunds help me to stay in business. Refunds are right ethically, and they’re good business. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I doubt it.
 

Johannes

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Your thread Jeff Vogel has finally gone off the deep end was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.
5 minutes ago


That's fucking retarded. It's not like the front page is cluttered with Vogel threads taking up all the space, that you need to lump them together.

Only thing this senseless megathreading does is make it harder to find individual discussions of the past that involved Vogel. And impossible to quickly notice if there's a new topic to talk about or just idlish chatter about old news, when it comes to the new posts.
 
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auunp3.jpg


I thought we were finished with megathreads. They suck and no one likes them. Do I have to whine even more in site feedback?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Your thread Jeff Vogel has finally gone off the deep end was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.
5 minutes ago


That's fucking retarded. It's not like the front page is cluttered with Vogel threads taking up all the space, that you need to lump them together.

Only thing this senseless megathreading does is make it harder to find individual discussions of the past that involved Vogel. And impossible to quickly notice if there's a new topic to talk about or just idlish chatter about old news, when it comes to the new posts.
I too have been wronged, brother.

Your thread Jeff Vogel on RPG difficulty was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.

Our beautiful, thought-provoking threads are gone, merged into a soulless monster. How shall we fight this injustice?
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Your thread Jeff Vogel has finally gone off the deep end was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.
5 minutes ago


That's fucking retarded. It's not like the front page is cluttered with Vogel threads taking up all the space, that you need to lump them together.

Only thing this senseless megathreading does is make it harder to find individual discussions of the past that involved Vogel. And impossible to quickly notice if there's a new topic to talk about or just idlish chatter about old news, when it comes to the new posts.
Just use the search function. ;)
 

Deuce Traveler

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Your thread Jeff Vogel has finally gone off the deep end was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.
5 minutes ago


That's fucking retarded. It's not like the front page is cluttered with Vogel threads taking up all the space, that you need to lump them together.

Only thing this senseless megathreading does is make it harder to find individual discussions of the past that involved Vogel. And impossible to quickly notice if there's a new topic to talk about or just idlish chatter about old news, when it comes to the new posts.
I too have been wronged, brother.

Your thread Jeff Vogel on RPG difficulty was merged into Jeff Vogel on why indie games are killing the industry.

Our beautiful, thought-provoking threads are gone, merged into a soulless monster. How shall we fight this injustice?

With fire.

:fight:
 

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