Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Jarl has an idea again: Sandbox gameplay

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,224
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Welcome to this month's episode of "Jarl has a game-idea again which probably won't ever be realized", this time about sandbox gaming. Instead of doing something productive like writing my long overdue Hinterland review or the second part of the Lesbian Elfporn Story, I'm writing some shit up about an idea I had. Oh well, let's get started, shall we.

Well, have you ever wondered why sandbox games grow boring and tedious after a while? Probably because there is no change in the gameworld, I'd say. And then a certain thought went through my head: why shouldn't sandbox RPGs profit from game mechanics that are used in strategy games? Strategy games, especially those of large scale, like the Total War series or the Paradox games, have almost infinite replay value. Why? Because every playthrough is different, since the AI will always try to do similar things like the player: build up their empires, conquer others, make diplomatic deals with others etc. This, along with the choice of playing a different empire each time you start a new game, adds immensely to the replay value of said games.

Now, why didn't anyone ever think about doing something like that in an RPG? Think about it like in Mount and Blade. There are several empires, each having alliances or being at war with others. There's constant change in the gameworld. There's endless fun to be had. And this is the perfect moment to introduce my game idea *drummroll*: Vikingar!
A game set around the beginning of the 9th century where you play a male or female Scandinavian who... well... can choose to do whatever he or she wants. Which is another thing that could make for an incredibly awesome sandbox game, but more to that later. Let's talk about the more conventional part of the gameplay, and about how strategy game elements could make such a game incredibly awesome.

Now, imagine you buy yourself a boat and sail to the shores of Europe. You go to some lord or king or whatever and want a quest. But not just any quest. A quest that makes sense and has been created by a certain event. Like... bandits having raped and pillaged in a nearby village. You're sent to kill them. In what way is this different from the way most quest are handled, you ask? Well, it's a quest that emerged out of a situation: AI-controlled bandits decided to plunder a town. The king isn't pleased and wants someone to take revenge. Or how about this: bandits have started attacking trade routes. A merchant wants you to escort him.

This kind of emergent gameplay would require some kind of AI that "thinks big". As in, an AI that is similar to strategy games, looking at the big picture and thinking about, in case of bandits, whether it's better to plunder a town or attack a trade route. Of course, those bandits should also react to increased guards on the trade route and pick another target if the number of guards becomes too much for them to handle. The AI should react to changes, and thus create a dynamic world where quests aren't scripted but emerge because of things the AI decides to do.

Now, imagine you're playing a peasant woman at some town at the shore of England or something. You just live your peaceful life, working at your farm and giving your taxes to the local lord. One day, Vikings appear without warning and pillage the town, attack your farm, kill your family, rape you and take you prisoner. That was pretty unexpected and might be kinda frustrating, but it also offers interesting gameplay opportunities: do you try to flee, or do you accept being a slave?
Or what if some other country declares war on the country you live in? It might not directly affect you, but one day a war party might stand in front of your town and you either have to try and help with the defense, or hide and pray your side wins.

All of these situations happen because of things that you don't notice directly, like another country declaring war on yours, or a Viking party deciding to plunder the town you happen to live in. This way, the actions of a strategy-game-like AI would affect your gaming experience directly, or indirectly. Indirectly maybe by the prices of food rising and you earning more money, because recently some farmland has been conquered by an enemy country. Non-scriped events like those would bring a lot more replayability into the game.

Now, to the "you can do whatever you want". Yes, you should be able to in a sandbox RPG. If there are farmers and blacksmiths in the gameworld, why not let the player become one? Doesn't sound too exciting at first, but if implemented in an interesting way, it could provide for some interesting alternative ways of playing the game.

So what are your opinions? Do you agree on strategy-game elements being able to enhance a sandbox RPG by making it less predictable and more varied? Opinions plx.
 

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
You forgot to mention if there is facegen, and whether or not you can give your player avatar a purple fox tail. If not, it will never sell.
 

OSK

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Messages
8,028
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Cloaked Figure said:
The best thing is, there is no technical limitation that is preventing anyone from making this type of game. Completely possible with any modern engine.

True. But creating something like this would take lots of time and effort. Even after creating this setup, with so many variables it'd take a lot of tweaking to get things right.

I'm sure we'll eventually see something like this, but for now it's all baby steps.
 

Squeek

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
231
I've been talking about ways to reach that same kind of goal of creating a "living" single-player game world for some time now. But you're thinking in terms of improving the current paradigm.

Instead of trying to pack a myriad of options into a single game governed by super-AI, there's a better way, and it's already being done. But not by game makers, by fans -- all completely above board and in super slow motion: They mod the games they enjoy to enhance the experience.

Unlike other kinds of software, there's no advantage to making RPGs in only one version. They could be made in a variety of versions. Unlike modders who are limited by the capabilities of their modding tools, developers could modify anything they want.

The limiting factor is the $60 price point. But the #1 CRPG in the world uses a subscription pricing model, and as WoW has made absolutely clear, subscriptions provide plenty of money for continuous development.

As it stands, every kind of character played every kind of way has the same things waiting for them, just about no matter how the player plays it. There needs to be variety and collaboration, but the only source for that now is player-made mods.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,224
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yeah, but it would be worth the effort. Gameplay-wise, probably not commercially, though. I wonder how much such a game would sell.
 

Squeek

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
231
Cloaked Figure said:
@squeek

That is true, but imagine how hard it would be for a single-player RPG to secure a steady flow of cash, enough to keep creating new content. Keep in mind that WoW is an MMORPG, and an addictive one at that. It also appeals to a much broader audience than a single-player RPG ever could.
It would be the novelty of multi-player versus the core idea of RPG, that each player can have his own unique adventures, resulting from his own unique decisions.

Single-player games have one huge technical advantage over MMOs, and that's that they can be modified. While everyone playing WoW plays the same thing together, each of us could play our own unique versions of the same game (if they were available).

Abandoning the concept of single version would open other doors. So long to the idea of being limited by the content of the game you installed originally. So long to the idea of everything being the same every time you play it. So long to a lot of other ideas that fit in with the real world but constrain imaginary ones.

Continuous development would enable mid-game modifications, and that's exactly what I would like to see. Not just bigger and bigger (that's thinking in terms of single-version), I'm talking about variety (and I'm implying modularity).
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,069
Squeek said:
I've been talking about ways to reach that same kind of goal of creating a "living" single-player game world for some time now. But you're thinking in terms of improving the current paradigm.

Instead of trying to pack a myriad of options into a single game governed by super-AI, there's a better way, and it's already being done. But not by game makers, by fans -- all completely above board and in super slow motion: They mod the games they enjoy to enhance the experience.

Unlike other kinds of software, there's no advantage to making RPGs in only one version. They could be made in a variety of versions. Unlike modders who are limited by the capabilities of their modding tools, developers could modify anything they want.

The limiting factor is the $60 price point. But the #1 CRPG in the world uses a subscription pricing model, and as WoW has made absolutely clear, subscriptions provide plenty of money for continuous development.

As it stands, every kind of character played every kind of way has the same things waiting for them, just about no matter how the player plays it. There needs to be variety and collaboration, but the only source for that now is player-made mods.

This is the ticket for a sandbox game. Build a game world as large and varied as WoW, add in all the things that would be so fucking cool but don't work with multiplayer, like actually unique artifacts and consequences toy nour quests, etc., and release expansions for 30 dollars every 6 months. The market is wide open- there are plenty of people who'd like to play an MMO by themselves, but no such game exists, outside of private servers, and even then it still has the restrictions of multiplayer.

Add in easy modding and a steady stream of free content/patching for legit users, and you have an excellent buisness model. When the graphics become obsolete, release the sequel- and let everyone transfer their characters over, since theres no economy, PVP balance, or suchlike to ruin. It'd have even more replayability than ES games since you'd have actually massive differences between races and classes, by way of completely separate skill types and friendly factions. Toss in limited multiplayer for people who want to duel their buddies or co-op without ever dealing with needing servers to maintain.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
Paradox handles the AI issue by scripts. That way there's no single massive super-AI to code like Radiant or something. There's a general AI-script to use as a template and into which the AI countries revert if they have nothing else. But most countries have their own specified AI-scripts and major players (like Nazi Germany in Hearts of Iron 2) have several different ones.

These are basically just text-files so modding them is also quite easy.

Problem? Loads of work to write those AI-scripts for all possible situations. AI can still be quite easily be broken by a clever human player.

Dunno how much Paradox is improving it for Hoi3, atleast they hired the best AI-modder from community to work on their future AI's.

Anyway, interesting read JarlFrank and that sort of game could be heavenly.
 

Fenril

Scholar
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
568
Location
Portugal
Add more simulation mechanics...AKA Elite / Mount and Blade and so on, add as much art assets and effect on the gameworld gimmicks as you can. There sandbox rpg thats not boring/repetitive after a certain point.

Add a poorly implemented main storyline/quest over all this......boom sandbox rpg ruined and all the deep simulation mechanics and variables are now a sideshow.
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
In my cynical opinion, Morrowind was as good as sandbox gameplay is going to get, and it still wasn't very good.

More story-based games, please, developers.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,224
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Jaime Lannister said:
In my cynical opinion, Morrowind was as good as sandbox gameplay is going to get, and it still wasn't very good.

More story-based games, please, developers.

Morrowind didn't give you enough possibilities to be a great sandbox RPG. It was very interesting to explore, though.

And, yes, I would love more games like PST, too, but playing a sandbox game in-between for variety is a good thing, isn't it?
I'd love to have some sandbox RPG in a fantasy world with the grade of realism that Unreal World has, too. Would be interesting.
 

burrie

Scholar
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
317
Location
Holland
Doesn't Space Rangers 2 and Sid Meier's Pirates already have something like this?
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,366
JarlFrank said:
A quest that makes sense and has been created by a certain event. Like... bandits having raped and pillaged in a nearby village. You're sent to kill them. In what way is this different from the way most quest are handled, you ask? Well, it's a quest that emerged out of a situation: AI-controlled bandits decided to plunder a town. The king isn't pleased and wants someone to take revenge. Or how about this: bandits have started attacking trade routes. A merchant wants you to escort him.
So you reckon you've played Mount & Blade, huh? 'Cause this pretty much be dere d00d.

JarlFrank said:
Of course, those bandits should also react to increased guards on the trade route and pick another target if the number of guards becomes too much for them to handle.
The AI in M&B appears to hunt out your least well-defended Castle / Town when it chooses to attack. Having a few Lords held in Prison Cells there also seems to be a factor (or maybe it's all just coincidence).

JarlFrank said:
Now, imagine you're playing a peasant woman
No.

JarlFrank said:
Now, to the "you can do whatever you want". Yes, you should be able to in a sandbox RPG. If there are farmers and blacksmiths in the gameworld, why not let the player become one? Doesn't sound too exciting at first, but if implemented in an interesting way, it could provide for some interesting alternative ways of playing the game.
Sandbox is nice but a sandbox without a shovel, a bucket, water to make mud and a Tonka Truck is just sand. All you can really do is make little piles of it and knock them over and that gets pretty boring after a while. M&B for example has a bunch of rather poorly implemented "other features" which leaves you with nothing to do other than attack everything in sight (trading system is poor, can't seem to negotiate peace or encourage Lords to join your independent Faction and a few other things).

At the end of the day though, a decent story with some well-designed quests can add a lot to a sandbox. It gives you some form of structure that you just simply can't create unless you just happen to have the artistic talent of these guys (IE: mod tools - and if you need mod tools to make the game decent, then the game has failed).
 

shihonage

Subscribe to my OnlyFans
Patron
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
7,163
Location
location, location
Bubbles In Memoria
So, a world populated with reactive NPCs that give quests fully relevant to the situation created by sum total of actions of every other NPC+quest+Player.

I'll have this gameplay mechanic fully working around Christmas time, or January at worst.
 

Disconnected

Scholar
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
609
JarlFrank said:
Morrowind didn't give you enough possibilities to be a great sandbox RPG. It was very interesting to explore, though.
Much as I love the game, it's a massive failure as a sandbox game. All the sandbox games are. Because they all share the same problem; lack of feedback.

What you were talking about in your OP is basically the problem of how to reduce the world to a series of simple transactions/simulations, unifying them, and ensuring they're actually playable. I'm convinced that can be done, done well and be a sound investment. The latter because a set of unified simulations like that, wouldn't necessarily be too inflexible to be used in a plethora of titles.

The tricky bit is convincing anyone to do it.

But back to Morrowind. It's a failure as a sandbox game, because there's no world simulation going on. You can't be a hunter or farmer, because there's no hunters or farmers. You can't be anything else either, because there aren't any of those either. You can't even be a caravan guard, because.. yes well, you get the picture. There's no feedback to anything anyone does in the game, PC & NPC alike.

If, on the other hand, Morrowind hadn't had man-eating things every 3 feet, but had a rudimentary ecosystem sim & enough physical space for it to not eat itself, then there'd be resources in the game. If there were resources in the game, there'd be something to base a rudimentary job-sim on (farmers, hunters, miners). If there's a job-sim, then there's a place for a market-sim (bandits, merchants, artisans). If there's that, then there's a basis for a tax-sim (overlords, armies, trade routes).

If there is those things, there's suddenly tonnes of player-made gameplay goals offering both real rewards and real competition. Real feedback. You don't just have to mod yourself a hut & LARP away as pretend-hunter.

At the core, all of those are reasonably simple transaction simulations. It's just transactions on different levels & scales. I suspect the hardest part of it is to create an NPC-type AI of reasonable competence. But perhaps the simplest way to get around something like that, is to simply generate retard babies with matching ability and ambition. Not a truly dynamic setup, but who cares? It might also get around things like the simulation accidentally killing plot.
 

Unradscorpion

Arbiter
Joined
May 19, 2008
Messages
1,488
Face it guys, you can't make interesting gameplay from being a blacksmith or a farmer.
Maybe if the whole game is constructed around the idea of being one of those, but you can't make both possible and interesting in the same game.

You say you can just implement it in an interesting way, which is pretty much handwaving the biggest problem you have with this here.
 

IlkuWarrior

Liturgist
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
127
Location
Croatia
I've had my own sandbox idea that I think can be combined well by the ideas written here.

I've always wondered why no-one has ever made a sandbox rpg that entirely takes place in one city. I guess GTA is the closest thing, but it's not an rpg.

I mean think about it, instead of a big landmass that's filled with 10 bland small cities, you have one huge people and content filled city and tons of things to do in it. I think in such an environment ideas of a big-picture AI and the rest you guys have been saying could be implemented much more easily, and also could be a good first step towards making them on a larger scale.

You could have say two underground criminal factions, some merchant/craftsmen guilds, and the nobility, fighting each other and between themselves for control of the city; plus, various side quests, that could vary depending on which faction controls what part of the city, etc. Each of these factions would have their own agenda and maybe their own AI to cope with various circumstances.
Your ultimate goal in the game could be to take over the city (because you're a greedy mofo, or because you can then use your power for the good of all, or whatever), and you could do it by taking over the criminal gangs, and then the city through force, or by working your way to the top of a guild, or by diplomacy with the nobility, or maybe you start a group of assassins and just go about eliminating everybody in power, etc. If you manage to take over a part of the city, you then could maybe order it about city builder style or gain some other advantages...

Or it doesn't have to be about city control at all. There could be a main quest, but the side quests and the general "situation" of the city would depend around the various factions and you could adapt to it however you like. For example, you could go all Thief on everyone and just rob the big players and amass wealth, I've always loved the bits of Thief when you were free to explore the city via the rooftops :).

All in all I think it would be a great environment where dynamic large scale AI, modding, etc could work quite well and make a very fun game...
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
12,020
Location
Behind you.
I said a few years ago on this forum that a great space trader game could be built around a 4X AI controlling the empires. Throw in some relationship tracking, and you've got a decent game. The empires offer up missions that are typically done in 4X games like dropping off spies on planets, attacking planets and space stations, taking supplies from here and there and getting paid to do it. What you do and to whom affects how the empires expand and grow. Of course, their goal objectives might or might not get done if the player declines.

Then again, Spore kind of does this in the space stage, but it just doesn't push the envelope enough.
 

S_Verner

Scholar
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
153
Saint_Proverbius said:
I said a few years ago on this forum that a great space trader game could be built around a 4X AI controlling the empires. Throw in some relationship tracking, and you've got a decent game. The empires offer up missions that are typically done in 4X games like dropping off spies on planets, attacking planets and space stations, taking supplies from here and there and getting paid to do it. What you do and to whom affects how the empires expand and grow. Of course, their goal objectives might or might not get done if the player declines.

Then again, Spore kind of does this in the space stage, but it just doesn't push the envelope enough.

I had an idea about something like this, only with you being on the other side of the desk, trying not to alienate your people, and trying to ensure that your deniable assets/inferiors do not fuck you over, all while dealing with goddamn politics.[/b]
 

Squeek

Scholar
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
231
IlkuWarrior said:
I've always wondered why no-one has ever made a sandbox rpg that entirely takes place in one city.
I've loved this idea too, but I've imagined it as an RPG where you always could but never had to venture out of the city. Modders changed and added a lot to Morrowind's Balmora, and that was kind of similar and cool.

But players read all about mods before they install them. Wouldn't it be nice if your game could qualify the character you've chosen and how you intend to play it and then react with modifications? Cities, forrests, dungeons and everything else could be changed in correspondence with the players' decisions, becoming more suitable.

In 1974 when I started playing D&D at CalTech with members of its computer club, the idea of creating a D&D universe was a pipedream we enjoyed discussing. But today's PCs are more powerful than 1974's supercomputers, and those systems can all connect via the Internet. It's possible today, I think.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom