Jagged Alliance: Back in Action

[Humanity has risen!]

http://boards.jaggedalliance.com/index.php?/topic/435-demo-released/page__pid__6861

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Now is the time to see the truth.

 

[spectre]

Downloading. I want to experience the rape firsthand, then just cry myself to sleep.

 

[Haba]

I'll show you some firsthand rape, ffs.

 

[pipka]

My judgment will be based on YouTube videos!

 

[Black]

My judgment will be based on YouTube videos!

Pfft, I already made my judgement

 

[hoverdog]

someone LP this piece of shit

 

[Black]

Cassidy is already doing it.

 

[Father Walker]

Downloadan asap. It'll be shit but might as well try the demo to decide whether it's worth torrenting

 

[spectre]

Played it for a bit.
Completed the tutorial, uninspired doesn't even begin to describe it, but meh, it's a tutorial.
Played the demo mission for a bit, not sure if can be bothered for a second approach.
It has already been known that it will be uninspired and nowhere close the original, so I won't rage about it here.

Overall it feels like a wasted opportunity. If the engine was used to update the original JA with minimal changes, we would have had a pretty good game, but alas it's an extreme case of attempting to
fix what wasn't broken.

Random thoughts:
(o) It plays like an RTS, not a squad based tactical game.
(o) Graphics aren't bad, nothing impressive, but I wouldn't mind seeing the original JA with such gfx.
(o) No fog of war kills the game, as predicted.
(o) The interface is atrocious
(o) Camera controls are atrocious
(o) Couldn't find any time flow controls. I refuse to believe that it's not possible, cause EVERY goddamn RtwP game has it. I mean Bitcomposer can't be that dumb.
(o) Mercenary VOs are there, but sound very, very bland.
(o) Some derp in the inventory section - a glock uses up same amount of space as the Draganoff (sic!) and does not fit into the same inventory slot as the repair kit. You can only have one gun attachment at a time, and it's not really attached to the gun, because it stays in the inventory slot when you swap guns. Herp.

Anyways, based on the initial impression, no surprises here. The game is pretty bad (not the Jagged Edge bad, but close). I'm looking for some redeeming features, but the thing is it feels subpar even when
I try to forget it's supposed to be JA and consider it yet another RtwP game. Truth be told I'd rather play 7.62 with its bugs, or Aftershock, or whatever. Unless I hear of any major patches or modding, I'll probably won't even bother torrenting it. At this point, I'm not really interested in what creative way they managed to make the starategic layer boring and uninspired.
Or maybe I will, so that BC can bitch that the game was p. cool but the filthy pirates killed it, Iron Lore style.

 

[Angelo85]

Yeah I tried the Demo as well, haven't finished the level yet but wanted to share my initial impressions, and say what I experienced different from spectre as well as add some stuff on my own:

First of all: how the hell do you use the C4 with timer or remote? Couldn't figure that out yet

I was attacking the southern position first, the one with three guards. I chose Magic and his silenced pistol to do the job while Lynx was covering him with his sniper rifle from afar.
Nice is that Magic is apparently voiced by a black voice actor (you know in some games where black guys get voiced by the white cast as well? Annoying as hell). So I took out the first guy that is patrolling around, I saw the loot icon and then found out that you can't take everything the enemy was wearing for example I couldn't loot the gun. Let's hope the loot is at least not randomly distributed... hunting for the rare item?

Then I sneaked to the back side and planned on taking out the guy next to the guard house. I failed at sneaking and the guard outside spotted me and opened fire. Lynx and Magic cooperatively took care of him BUT the guard in the little guard house just sat there pretending not hearing what is going on 10 meters away from him.

I looted the place and saw various misc items with "ironically funny" descriptions, for example a spider in the garbage with the description: "It's a spider. It has eight legs."

Impressions so far: it's good for what it is, but I get more of a commando vibe from this game than Jagged Alliance. Could stem from the fact that you see all enemies at all times though. The various guns got different "feels" to it which is good and you got 4 different camo values for the terrains desert, night, woodland and urban which is cool. And you can see equipment on your chars. If you for example change trousers the graphics change. Oh and Fidel comes equipment wise with a Beret which was cool as well I thought

Spectre has raised some concerns regarding to the interface/UI stuff. The camera is not totally free roaming and you can't always get the angle you want. Some inventory/equipment UI choices are questionable. The interface didn't bother me too much but it's far from perfect.

I wasn't expecting a real Jagged Alliance successor but more of a "spiritual successor" especially since (from what I read) you don't get the map with sectors anymore nor the RPG like quests and dialogs. Though there's still leveling up, if I interpred the UI correctly you can choose which stat the mercenary levels up. So no more learning by doing - I think at least since I haven't experienced a level up yet.
I think considering other major failures of old games redesigned, this is one of the better successors we have seen in the last couple months and years. It's not Jagged Alliance 3 but, once again, good for what it is in my opinion.

Then again if you were expecting Jagged Alliance 3.0 you will be dissapointed.

 

[spectre]

What can I say, if you managed to squeeze some fun out of this, good for you.

The two things that killed the game is RtwP and no fog of war, imo.
I suspect that if somebody is less buthhurt about these two things than the average JA2 fanboy, there's some fun to be had here.

Personally, I could have turned a blind eye to a great deal of bullshit so long as they kept it turn based. Yes, even the camera and the new levelling system.

I also greatly miss the manual aiming, there are snapshots and weapon readying to take aim, but it's just not the same anymore.
Damn shame, apparently nobody at BitComposer could be arsed to list the core elements of JA gameplay and work from there.

So, I agree with Angelo85, it plays like a different sort of game, if you remember Shadow Company - a simplified, slightly retarded JA cousin, it actually plays lot like that.

To elaborate a bit more on the UI, I think the main problem is the placement of the most frequently used controls - inventory and stance controls are at the two opposite edges of the screen. Bad idea.

First of all: how the hell do you use the C4 with timer or remote? Couldn't figure that out yet

Based on the tutorial, I have a sneaking suspicion that you can only place explosives at pre-defined locations. Didn't test it myself though.

I saw the loot icon and then found out that you can't take everything the enemy was wearing for example I couldn't loot the gun.

That's actually default JA2 behavior. Drop all items is available in 1.13 only.

 

[Khor1255]

Thanks for the in depth review spectre. I was hoping to be surprised by hearing someone who likes Ja2 liked this thing but it is as I expected.

I'll probably download and play it myself more for morbid curiosity than any expectations of even a remotely decent game. Sad. Those guys at Bit Composer should hang their heads and get a real job.

 

[Father Walker]

Ok, impression time.

- Camera control is ok or at least doesn't annoy you as cameras in some 3d games can.
- Yeah, we've got different camo types and two meters which show how much visible is your merc and how much noise he makes.
- Weapon customization is dead. As others have said, there is one slot for an attachment and attachments aren't weapon specific. So if you have an AK with a scope and switch weapons to M16, then your scope will automatically switch to the M16. On the positive side, there is a lot of customization when it comes to choosing what pants or shirt your mercs are going to wear
- No separate magazines as in JA2. You just have bunch of bullets laying in the inventory. Also, unequipped weapons are considered empty, so each time you equip a weapon, your merc needs to reload it. Wow, great idea.
- Shooting mechanics seem okay.
- AI is decent. It plays defensively, but I've seen it perform decent attacks. AI soldiers can heal their comrades, which is a nice touch. Also there is much more enemies on the map than in JA2, though only those close to the firefight react to it in any way. So don't expect that whole map will swamp you if you decide to start shooting.
- Health system is seriusly fucked up. I haven't seen wounded mercs bleed at all, unless they are in dying state (i.e. 0 HP and bleeding to death). Meds recover HP instantly, merc's maximum health is only limited if he was recovered from a dying state. Serious decline for me.
- The game plays like the 7.62 High Calibre or Man of Prey, though it lacks nice details present in those.
- RTwP is a pretty bad choice for such game imo. If you control more than one or two soldiers at one time, it instantly turns into a clusterfuck.
- You can't enter the roofs of the buildings.
- Voice acting is decent, though the merc portraits lack the atmosphere of the previous titles.
- No fog of war. Either they are trying to fuck with the players or were lazy enough not to implement the feature into demo version.

So, as expected, this new JA is pretty much an insult to anyone who likes the previous JA titles. Combat seems demanding and it's easy to die, but this insta-healing makes it all but unimportant. Yeah, you got shot five times, but you've got a bag full of meds, so who cares. Rinse and repeat.

Real time means that firefights are won by those who get the first shot. Combat is either a clusterfuck, where you are trying hard to understand what is going on, or watching as your mercs in guard mode shoot the fuck out of anything which comes into the line of sight.

Final verdict: not worth buying or torrenting. I would rather send this 25 euro (or whatever the game's price is) to the folks developoing 1.13 mod for JA2.

 

[spectre]

Just cleaned out the swamp laboratory, so time for a full impression.
After some time, the camera and UI stopped bothering me, but I still think they're atrocious :p

The biggest problem about the game is that the combat is an utter clusterfuck in real time. I'm really missing many, many standard features for RTwP games, for instance time compression.
On current settings, you cannot realistically hope to manage a two-way battle, unless you pause every second. Such things were easier in 7.62 with tie compression. Second basic thing, where's the "shoot until enemy is dead" command?
My guys are constantly getting shot to pieces because I ordered three attacks instead of four. Also, the mercs often refuse to shoot, even though there's nothing really blocking them. Fidel once died on me when he refused a clear shotgun shot on a guy literally 3 meters away.
(the display said good chance to hit...). I literally shouted out loud: Why are you not firing faggot!!! a number of times during every encounter.
Last thing missing is some kind of an indication when the current action will be completed.
All the above are pretty easy to fix, but without them, the game is really, really annoying.

Once I got over the fact that this isn't the Jagged Alliance I've been waiting for, I really tried to get into the game. It was an exercise in patience, for reasons listed above. The game is a mixed bag, as though the devs meant well, but weren't really competent enough to pull all this off. Lot can be blamed on QA. Not sure what their testers focused on, but in my opinion if they had a few guys who know the genre, the game would have turned out much better.

If they listen to the feedback do some heavy patching, this game might eventually turn playable. As for now... if you're a JA fan just see for yourself if you can live with the changes. For me, the game was an exercise in patience, and not because of the fact it was RTwP,
I think I played all the major games in the genre and it's the first time when I have to struggle with the controls too much. Furthermore, I have to agree with andrzej, RtWP simply does not suit the game at all. The frantic pace may work for some people, but in my opinion haste doesn't suit tactical squadgames.

- Health system is seriusly fucked up. I haven't seen wounded mercs bleed at all, unless they are in dying state (i.e. 0 HP and bleeding to death). Meds recover HP instantly, merc's maximum health is only limited if he was recovered from a dying state. Serious decline for me.

Same here. Fortunately, or unfortunately, if the game used the original JA2 system, it would be virtually unplayable. The AI gets in so many luck random shots at, it's not even funny. And the demo is actually a night mission.
Also, it seems that there is no visible decrease in soldier performance due to wounds. If the guy has 1HP left, he's as good as new. Bummer. At least in JA2 the AP got reduced a bit.

- No separate magazines as in JA2. You just have bunch of bullets laying in the inventory. Also, unequipped weapons are considered empty, so each time you equip a weapon, your merc needs to reload it. Wow, great idea.

Props to BitComposer for inventing a system that is both inane and manages to make sidearms completely useless. And don't get me started on the lack of ammo types...

- Voice acting is decent, though the merc portraits lack the atmosphere of the previous titles.

The portraits are essentially the same model with diffeent texture and hair :-/ Bummer again.
Now, when it comes to VA, I have to admit, it's not a shoddy job thought it to be earlier. Not as good as JA2, but it's not repulsive (including the rather morbid VO for translated JA Unfinished Business I had the misfortune to experience).
There are two problems though: lack of variety - the mercs say the same, fucking, goddamn thing every two minutes. Second, they have a habit of muttering solemn monolugues, but the frentic action makes you miss what they actually say.
Real time is at fault here, in turn based, you can take your time and listen to what they have to say, because the pacing is much more accommodating.

- Yeah, we've got different camo types and two meters which show how much visible is your merc and how much noise he makes.

Liking the different camo types as well. But the indicators are confusing. I tend to mix it up, which bar is for which.

- Weapon customization is dead

Yep. What the hell were they thinking? To add insult to injury, there's only one modification slot. I guess they were baffled as to how can people use a silencer, a laser sight and a suppressor AT THE SAME TIME!?
I'm really butthurt about this, because that's one feature I'd prefer to see expanded, not getting the shaft.

What else, I'm not to keen on what they did to the levelling system. You gain exp by doing everything (disarming traps, killing bad guys, repairing, healing, etc.) then when you accumulate enough, you get 7 points to spend on your stats and skills.
I preferred the learn by using system more. I also noticed that they preserved the trait system to some extent. They also added a new spotting skill, which is highly ironic seeing that they removed the LoS.

Pistols feel useless, it felt much less bother just knifing the guy, you can silence them, but the damage sucks. The desert eagle has a decent output, but the range is so pitiful that you won't hit shit.
It seems that the enemies will try to club you with the stock of the weapon in cqb (and it seems it's not possible to shoot in such situation), a nice touch.
My merc actually died once due to this, because I just clicked on the guy once, and he stood there happily getting beaten to death.

It also seems that you can only use explosives at predefined points. Which would have sucked less if:
a) it mattered in any way (hint: so far as I've seen in the demo, it doesn't)
b) there was actually more than one place to do it. Ok, I didn;t actually search, but I only noticed one spot to do it in the demo. And it didn't offer any significant tactical advantage at that point.


Now, does the game have any actual redeeming features?

I think the graphics are solid. Not stunning, but the models are detailed enough. Same goes for the environments. Looks like there will be lots of customization options for the character looks, although that bitchen pirate tshit will most likely be covered by kevlar,
you an always put on extended ears, bandanas, masks, NV goggles and regular ole glasses.
All this does though is remind me how good a game JA2 would have been had it been 100% faithfull recreated on such an engine with such assets (although the engine itself is noting special, I've seen it lose some fps on a pretty decent rig, and there's little environmental destruction. Yeah, it looks like it uses ragdolls for corpses, but that's hardly groundbreaking.

 

[Phelot]

Well, I wasn't expecting much. Wasn't even following this game. It sounds like they stripped it of all the cool stuff that I love, like weapon mods, combining items, and of course the combat. What a shame. I wonder how well it will sell? I'm sure their decision for a lot of the changes was to reach a broader audience, but it occurs to me that this is one time that they should have aimed for that niche community since I'm guessing not too many people are going to get this game. Could be wrong.

So tell me, did they get the merc personalities right? How about Sirtech's humor? Is Magic still Magic or is it all lamed up?

 

[The_scorpion]

Now, does the game have any actual redeeming features?

i guess that's the only question left.

If one pretends that the game isn't called JA and isn't meant to be JA in some way, does it have anything to offer?

 

[Father Walker]

Btw, BC have stated that no modding tools are planned, so chances of inclining the game through mods are rather nonexistent.

Btw 2: I've heard that strategic map is fucked (i.e. smaller and shittier).

What a shame. I wonder how well it will sell? I'm sure their decision for a lot of the changes was to reach a broader audience, but it occurs to me that this is one time that they should have aimed for that niche community since I'm guessing not too many people are going to get this game. Could be wrong.

I hope it sells really bad, they go bankrupt and then die of cancer. But yeah, they've pretty much screwed themselves with the design choices and target audience.

So tell me, did they get the merc personalities right? How about Sirtech's humor? Is Magic still Magic or is it all lamed up?

Sir Tech's humor is in, because they've copy-pasted weapon descriptions from JA2.

Mercs have certain similarities (like names, for example) to the original ones.

i guess that's the only question left.

If one pretends that the game isn't called JA and isn't meant to be JA in some way, does it have anything to offer?

Not really. It's worse than 7.62HC in every respect imo and that game wasn't that great in the first place. BIA has no redeeming qualities at all. It's going to be a sad, bland, boring, banal and shitty game.

 

[Phelot]

Sir Tech's humor is in, because they've copy-pasted weapon descriptions from JA2.

Oh holy hell that's lame!!! Part of the personality of the series was that great humor and cool mercs. I've said before, the mercs in JA manage to have more personality and appeal with just a few spoken lines than characters in story driven RPGs.

 

[DakaSha]

Seems as if one of my top three franchises of all time has been raped. Shrug.. Guess I'm getting used to this shit.

 

[The_scorpion]

i'm wondering when the retro-backlash comes. I mean there's so many old fans alienated by the gaming industry at such a fast pace that bitter old hateful nostalgics may soon be the biggest market segment

 

[Chuck Norris]

IDK why the hell on earth Kalypso gave the project to bitcomposer, all of the very few games they made were absolute flops.

 

[curry]

it looks like I can safely skip this turd

 

[spectre]

I hope it sells really bad, they go bankrupt and then die of cancer.

No worries, they'll blame it on the pirates anyway. There's one good thing though, word will be out that there's no use raping the corpse JA2. No monies in it.

Btw, BC have stated that no modding tools are planned, so chances of inclining the game through mods are rather nonexistent.

That's pretty shitty news then. I was kinda hoping somebody somewhere puts all the game's assets to good use.

EDITH: Could you confirm this one, though? I don't recall ever reading anything of the sort.

If one pretends that the game isn't called JA and isn't meant to be JA in some way, does it have anything to offer?

Good question. I was kinda hoping to get mod support, with a proper sdk we might hope to get something playabe, dunno, in 5 more years.
The engine is nothing special, imo, and reverse-engineering it to accomodate turns is a pipe dream, obviously.

Now, to give the devil his due, the graphics is nice. chracter portraits need a bit more love, but apart from that, the game looks decent.

AI is not bad as well. Not really challenging (apart from getting lucky 1 hit kills in), but competent and believable (has its bright moments, I've seen it flank, I've seen it take cover, I've seen it use grenades and medikits, but also shows some derp from time to time)

What else, the sectors appear to be big, maybe slightly bigger than in JA2.
The one in the demo is not really populated to its limits, but there is plenty of space.

That strategy planning tab is pretty nice. It allows to synchronize orders for different mercenaries, which is only useful for a coordinated attack, but it's still decent. Also, it is easy to track individual orders. Overall, I approve of this feature.

I'm also thinking if it's fair to say that the game is challenging.
I mean I reloaded quite a bit in the demo, but it's not that simple.
(o) More than half of my deaths were because I struggled with the interface or the mercs refused to fire for whatever reason.
(o) Rest of the deaths were by AK bursts. The AI is a pretty good shot, either that or they managed to got a few lucky hits.
(o) I actually dispatched most of the enemies by long range sniping with the Dragunoff (sic - seems that they couldn't use licensed guns. Even the glock is called klock or somesuch). Felt really cheap, dropping headshots left and right,
but JA2 was plagued by exactly the same problem, so I'll let that one slide. Obviously, I couldn't do the same in cqb and there were times when Lynx needed support. Also, to be fair, the enemy did use cover from time to time.

I read on their official site that the demo is supposedly REALLY hard. Um nope. Slightly challenging, but not in any way hard. It may have been genuinely hard if there was actually any fog of war. Good job shooting yourselves in the foot, BC.

i'm wondering when the retro-backlash comes. I mean there's so many old fans alienated by the gaming industry at such a fast pace that bitter old hateful nostalgics may soon be the biggest market segment

Something may be on indeed. I remember when Fallout 3 came out. Even though NMA was marginalized and dubbed the glittering gems of hatred, we eventually got New Vegas. Yeah, a small victory.
Same situation this year, first the announce the shitty XCOM fps, then it turns out Firaxis was hard at work with a turn based sequel. Again, it doesn't shape up to be the XCOM reimaining I would hope for, but it's still a nice touch.
I think as long as the mid-range sector of the industry expands, (that is something right between the smartphone apps and AAA titles) we are entitled to a touch of cautious optimism.

 

[Father Walker]

That's pretty shitty news then. I was kinda hoping somebody somewhere puts all the game's assets to good use.

EDITH: Could you confirm this one, though? I don't recall ever reading anything of the sort.

BC guy stated on their forums, that:

Kalypso answered this question for north america, we answered it for the european market already: We won't give support on modding. No modtools or editors. However we won't stop people from modding the game if they want to.

Update: I think I should explain the reasons for that like in the german forums. The thing is we cannot release the editors and stuff. Two reasons for that one. First, they are not very comfortable and easy to use. Sure, that's not the main reason although it would be same like releasing the whole source code and the engine for free. The main reason is that there are third party tools used and included and therefore it's a license-problem.

It's all for your own good, sheep. Mod tools are hard and uncomfortable for use.

Lots of other lulz to be had on the official forums. I really like this bitComposer_Michael guy, vel "I've already answered this on ze German forums" or "It's a complex business matter and I can't write about it" or "What do you know about game development". Seriously, that's pretty much everything he says.

Also, he's an instant best thread ever material. I've cherry-picked some of my favorites:

Don't like BIA? You can always set up your own company and make your own JA-clone, you idiot.

They still can build up their own studio and create a game which is exactly the same but with a different name (and different names for the characters and all this).

Fog of war? Meh. It's so random and un-tactical.

However let me explain why it wasn't fun: The fog of war lead to dozens of trial and error situations which were not very funny. not knowing where an enemy is was kinda frustrating and the game paused all the way cause you're facing yet another enemy. You couldn't really use tactics but just move along and try to survive. It had nothing to do with deeper tactics and tricking out the AI but just fighting with some luck. In several testrounds with a lot of people it was decided to cut the fog of war.

So, you still want this silly FoW? Maybe, if you ask us nicely, we'll think about adding it in some patch for you. Nah! Just joking you JA-nerd!

However this doesn't mean there won't be a fog of war forever. We're thinking about some kind of hardcorepatch for the JA-Geeks who want give it a try.

News at 11! Nobody is forced to buy this piece of shit!

Hey there, try out the just released demo. if missing FoW is still a problem for you, that's okay. You really do not have to buy the game if you don't want to.

Good job shitComposer. Thanks for fucking up my favorite franchise.