IWD 2 vs ToEE: Which was better and why?

[denizsi]

- Livonya

Are we sure that it's Livonya who wrote all that? I don't trust post-bottom signatures. Quick, somebody check the poster name up ahead.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

TOEE naturally, due mainly to the combat engine, though I wish it had been fleshed out just a bit more and actually "finished". The engine should have been used for more games. Terrible waste.

IWD2 I found to be slightly inferior to IWD1, though it was an enjoyable game.

 

[Ebonsword]

Temple of Elemental Evil gets the nod from me.

I liked Icewind Dale 2, but I'm not sure that I ever finished it (I think that I got distracted by some other shiny new game).

I liked that ID2 let you gain higher levels than ToEE, but, as others have said, the combat engine in ToEE is, hands down, the finest D&D combat engine yet made. Too bad no other games were ever made using it--a video game version of Against the Giants would have been super sweet.

I do agree, though, that the quests and such in ToEE were pretty sucky. Luckily, I don't remember them being too intrusive after you made it to the main dungeon.

 

[hiver]

TOEE definetly.

IWD2 was one of my most hated games because it did everything first IWD did bad as its main feature. I even had to go through that bloody never ending dragons Eye again for fucks sake!
And at the end of it - instead of just getting out finally god fucking damn - i get thrown into that moronic time traveling cave where i basically have to repeat same thing five times over and over and over.

Instead of it being less linear and having less boring drawn out dungeons it had more.

TOEE had its problems too that were simmilar, worse and more simplified main story, simplistic quests and one really big fucking dungeon but it had its moments of greatness too. It had a few really good quests and much more C&C (sodomy reminded me of quite a few recently, nod-)

Though consequences weren't really deep its excellent combat system and shear beauty and atmosphere put it far ahead of IWD2 in my book.

 

[Melcar]

IWD2 dungeons sucked ass. The Black Wolf Temple, and The Severed Hand from the first IWD were pretty good. The dungeon from TotLM was awesome as well (I enjoyed it more than Watcher's Keep or even Durlag's Tower). It's a shame that latter games adopted BG's dungeon scheme (short and boring with a shit load of re-spawns) instead of IWD's and ToEE's.

 

[hiver]

Yeah, Severed hand was one of the better ones ever made.

- they accepted it because its easier to do. God i hate respawning...

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I have to give the edge to IWD 2 because of the combat. ToEE's TB combat was trumped by the RTS of the IE. I like the ability to set real traps even if its cheap, use gorrilla tactics, and for ranged combat to have a realistic influance. ToEE was too much about Tanks and area spells. IWD 2 was at least on rival with a decent RTS and you could win with a vareity of tactics. Just using stealth in ToEE was a major drag.

 

[Volourn]

TOEE is better but the following is bullshit...


"I am not saying I hate companies for their greed."

Whatever. Yet you sound selfish throughout your whole post, and ar eso ignorant when it comes to the big picture.


"I am saying I hate the way corporate quarterly profits destort businesses into making bad choices."

*Yawn*

"ToEE would have made a LOT more money if they would have finished the game,"

HAHAHAHAHA! Spoken by a truly mornic Troika fanboy patriot.

" but Atari wasn't interested in making more money, they were interested in improving their quarterly report... "

What an idiot.


"so in the end they did something that helped them on paper, but actually hurt their company in the long run.

This is a serious problem with the corporate system that prevents companies from having long term vision."

Tool.


"The reason a lot of very buggy/unfinished games are released is due to this corporate quarterly system. It is an ongoing problem. "

Ye who can save the entire industry if only they'd listen to you and only you. God complex much?

Here are the two choices:

"1) Release ToEE unfinished, but improve their quarterly report. ToEE gets slammed with bad reviews, and clearly the game is broken. It takes several years for modders to fix the game. Overall sales are damaged, and the title has no chance for a sequal."

Uhuh.


"2) Put more resources into ToEE so the game is finished. Atari has a less than steller quarterly report, but they release a finished game that gets much better reviews. They sell a lot more copies, and they eventually release one or more sequals."

Complete and utter wishful thinking. The idea that TOEE would have sold much more if they had waited is garbage.


"ToEE had the potential to be one of the best D&D games ever released. It could have easily spawned a franchise, and would still be selling today if it had been finished and polished."

Absolutely. If Troika hadn't fucked it up. Atari even gave them an extension. Atari couldn't reasonably keep delaying the game 'cause it would just hurt their bottom line, and it would ahve just cost more and more.


"Seriously, even as it is now the engine is really good. It had fantastic potential. But Atari cut off their arm to save their fingers.

In the long run Atari made less money pushing out a game before it was finished."

This is backed up with absolutely no proof. Just your typical pro Troika anti Atari/publisher bullshit.

 

[Liberal]

ToEE was much better. Actually, it's a lamentable fact that other D&D games were not created with ToEE as basis.

 

[Liberal]

IWD 2 was much better. Actually, it's a lamentable fact that other D&D games were not created with IWD 2 as basis.

 

[Dark Elf]

I'm sitting on the fence here. As much as I'd probably agree with the people who say that all things considered, IWD2 is the better game, I just can't shake the feeling that ToEE's way ahead of IWD2 atmosphere-wise. Targos just can't compare to Hommlet.

 

[janjetina]

I'm playing TOEE right now and the difference between it and and IWD 2 on the quality scale is like the difference between heaven (or should I say heavan) and hell.

The worst part of the Infinity engine games (with the exception of Baldur's Gate 2, due to its encounter design, with more than a few challenging encounters) was definitely combat, and making a combat oriented game in IE has failure written all over it. Asswind dale 2 plays like a hack and slash game, encounters are boring, AI is as retarded as in other IE games. Add an uninspired generic characters to the mix and you have the worst Infinity engine game, nothing more than a Diablo with a little text.

In contrast, Temple of Elemental Evil has superbly designed turn-based combat, with multiple tactical options for each action. Computer AI is among the best in any RPG. Encounters are well designed and represent a challenge, especially fighting large groups of enemies - TOEE is one of the few games where an encounter with the multiple opponents doesn't feel like a mess. Choices at the level up screen matter a lot, unlike in other DnD based games. There are many opportunities for the use of the non-combat skills. While the game world doesn't hold up to the standards of the best RPGs like Fallout, Arcanum, or Planescape: Torment, it is a few orders of magnitude better than the generic world of Asswind dale 2.
TOEE engine is probably the best RPG engine ever made, I wonder what's its copyright related status after Troika's Demise.

Temple of Elemental Evil is a top 10 RPG, and in terms of combat, it is the best.
Asswind dale 2 is the worst IE RPG and probably the worst Black Isle game (also, it's worse than any Obsidian game). There is no comparison.

 

[Volourn]

"with multiple tactical options for each action. Computer AI is among the best in any RPG. Encounters are well designed and represent a challenge, especially fighting large groups of enemies - TOEE is one of the few games where an encounter with the multiple opponents doesn't feel like a mess. Choices at the level up screen matter a lot, unlike in other DnD based games."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!

Pleas etell mme you are either drunk or joking with this post. Then again, you probably thing bugbear after bugbear is 'well designed encounters'.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[janjetina]

I'll take that as a confirmation that I'm right. By the way, I'd rather fight only bugbears in TOEE, than the "best" DnD monster you can imagine in IWD 2.

 

[1eyedking]

I actually found Icewind Dale 2's battles to be more fun, engaging, and harder than ToEE's.

Furthermore, ToEE copied the boring rulefest that is D&D 3rd Edition, and thus made for some equally boring combat "choices". Tactics my ass...

 

[Zeros]

Didn't IWD2 use 3.0 rules too, anyways?

I loved the turnbased-tastic experience of ToEE, but generally speaking I think the encounters were nothing to write home about: seems as if they were mostly designed with an infinity engine mindset.

Still, I did finish ToEE a few times (with co8's mod and without) yet IWD2 I didnt feel captured enough to finish it although I played it one or two years ago and my hack and slash tolerance has been going down in time.

 

[1eyedking]

Didn't IWD2 use 3.0 rules too, anyways?

Yes, but lightly. It didn't use any of the defensive-casting, bull-rushing, 5-foot-stepping crap.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

I actually found Icewind Dale 2's battles to be more fun, engaging, and harder than ToEE's.

Furthermore, ToEE copied the boring rulefest that is D&D 3rd Edition, and thus made for some equally boring combat "choices". Tactics my ass...

I guess we are both in that minority. ToEE was obviously a more literal translation of the rules however IWD 2 felt more like its you commandeering a fantasy shock troop. As much I love D&D, and as big of a D&D geek as I am I would rather feel like I was pulling the puppet strings of reality than playing someones translation of such an unrealistic ruleset. Most of ToEE's advantages were moot. Fighting defensive, 5-step, readying for approach, etc etc were thin toppings on an overall game that played a lot like John Madden's Raiders. Keep your tanks in front and throw long bombs (area spells) ftw.

With IWD 2 I always felt like I could approach any basic encounter differently. You could set ambushes in one encounter and get ambushed in the next, arm everyone and win with ranged weapons in one battle and use all melee the next. I also loved using Gorilla tactics. It made the small party thing more believable. In ToEE if you were to encounter an Ettin someone would have to lock it head to head. In real life nobody is going to lock an Ettin face to face unless forced. In IWD 2 the entire party could move away and shoot.

 

[Zeros]

dude(s), it's guerrilla. Either that or the codex really likes imitating primates in fights.

 

[Melcar]

They're all a bunch of furries, that's why.

 

[Livonya]

TOEE is better but the following is bullshit...


"I am not saying I hate companies for their greed."

Whatever. Yet you sound selfish throughout your whole post, and ar eso ignorant when it comes to the big picture.


"I am saying I hate the way corporate quarterly profits destort businesses into making bad choices."

*Yawn*

"ToEE would have made a LOT more money if they would have finished the game,"

HAHAHAHAHA! Spoken by a truly mornic Troika fanboy patriot.

" but Atari wasn't interested in making more money, they were interested in improving their quarterly report... "

What an idiot.


"so in the end they did something that helped them on paper, but actually hurt their company in the long run.

This is a serious problem with the corporate system that prevents companies from having long term vision."

Tool.


"The reason a lot of very buggy/unfinished games are released is due to this corporate quarterly system. It is an ongoing problem. "

Ye who can save the entire industry if only they'd listen to you and only you. God complex much?

Here are the two choices:

"1) Release ToEE unfinished, but improve their quarterly report. ToEE gets slammed with bad reviews, and clearly the game is broken. It takes several years for modders to fix the game. Overall sales are damaged, and the title has no chance for a sequal."

Uhuh.


"2) Put more resources into ToEE so the game is finished. Atari has a less than steller quarterly report, but they release a finished game that gets much better reviews. They sell a lot more copies, and they eventually release one or more sequals."

Complete and utter wishful thinking. The idea that TOEE would have sold much more if they had waited is garbage.


"ToEE had the potential to be one of the best D&D games ever released. It could have easily spawned a franchise, and would still be selling today if it had been finished and polished."

Absolutely. If Troika hadn't fucked it up. Atari even gave them an extension. Atari couldn't reasonably keep delaying the game 'cause it would just hurt their bottom line, and it would ahve just cost more and more.


"Seriously, even as it is now the engine is really good. It had fantastic potential. But Atari cut off their arm to save their fingers.

In the long run Atari made less money pushing out a game before it was finished."

This is backed up with absolutely no proof. Just your typical pro Troika anti Atari/publisher bullshit.

I can't believe I am replying to you... I am sure it is a mistake.

Proof? How can you talk about proof when your post is mainly just one liner insults...

"tool"

"what an idiot"

"uhuh"

I could back up what I have said, and relate it to the current economic problems in the US economy, as the corporate system is responsible for our current problems.

It boils down to short term results versus long term vision.

But what would be the point as all I will get will be more of your one liner insults...

I hope I will learn from this mistake.

- Livonya

 

[Qwinn]

as the corporate system is responsible for our current problems.

Yes, of course, because after the government forced those evil corporate types to acquire massive amounts of toxic debt for the sake of affirmative-action housing, those corporate types did what they could to sell it. Those bastards.

I especially blame the "corporate system" that created Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and forced them to buy up all those toxic assets until they curled up and died, all on government orders. Clearly, free market capitalism and insufficient regulation is to blame.

But at least we have the government ready to print and then spend several trillion dollars to fix the mess that those corporate toadies created by doing everything the government forced and enabled them to do, with one Senator after another telling us there was absolutely nothing wrong going on. I'm sure those same Senators will see us out of this mess any minute now.

Sigh.

Qwinn

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

dude(s), it's guerrilla. Either that or the codex really likes imitating primates in fights.

Wow thanks for the education. All this time I thought it was named after the animal.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

as the corporate system is responsible for our current problems.

Yes, of course, because after the government forced those evil corporate types to acquire massive amounts of toxic debt for the sake of affirmative-action housing, those corporate types did what they could to sell it. Those bastards.

Wow...

Less than 20% of lenders are obligated to abide by any Affirimitive Action laws, and I doubt that more than a third of their clients were minorities or qualifying white folk and most of those minorities didnt even need any 'Afrimititve Action'. So basicaly you are focusing on the failure rate of a minority of a third, in a fifth of people taking subprime loans. Thats a fraction within a fraction within a fraction.

 

[Livonya]

as the corporate system is responsible for our current problems.

Yes, of course, because after the government forced those evil corporate types to acquire massive amounts of toxic debt for the sake of affirmative-action housing, those corporate types did what they could to sell it. Those bastards.

I especially blame the "corporate system" that created Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and forced them to buy up all those toxic assets until they curled up and died, all on government orders. Clearly, free market capitalism and insufficient regulation is to blame.

But at least we have the government ready to print and then spend several trillion dollars to fix the mess that those corporate toadies created by doing everything the government forced and enabled them to do, with one Senator after another telling us there was absolutely nothing wrong going on. I'm sure those same Senators will see us out of this mess any minute now.

Sigh.

Qwinn

This is spin.

Did I say that the government was not playing a role in the problem?

The government suffers from the same problem as the corporate structure.... short term gain/results and no long term vision.

Your account of what happened with the mortgage crisis is distortion.

My father has been a realtor for 30+ years. He became a real estate appraiser in the late '80s. In the early part of this decade he was driven out of the appraisal business.

In 2001 he explained to me that what was happening is that the banks would only hire the appraisers that would green light the loan under any circumstances. In many cases in order for the loan to go through the property would be appraised above the actual market value.

My father refused to appraise a property for more than it was worth because that was a very bad situation for the home owner. The banks simply stopped hiring him to do appraisals.

At that point he predicted that this would create some sort of mortgage crisis. Of course he didn't think it would be this bad. And yet he could see the long term problem.

He lives in a small town in Idaho. These were average lower middle class white people who weren't using any government plans. Most of the time they were not buying new homes, but simply re-financing their homes to pull the equity out. Equity that didn't actually exist.

I only mention my fathers' story because it mirrors everything I have read about the problem. His story does not prove anything, but it does give a real life example of what was going on all over the country.

This crisis probably would have happened much earlier if not for the fact that people were living beyond their means by running up debt they couldn't afford.

Are people responsible for their bad choices? Sure. But it is equally true that there were banks and institutions that were guiding them towards these bad choices.

Our government does the same thing. They borrow, borrow, borrow. Who will pay this debt? Our children and our children's children.

More and more our society sacrifices long term vision for short term goals.

Cutting off our arm to save our fingers.

- Livonya

PS: Sorry for helping to derail this thread.