Crispy™ Isometric tactical RPGs have not advanced post-decline the same way as action RPGs

[PorkyThePaladin]

Some retards here accuse me of only liking action RPGs (third/first person RPGs with real time player skill based combat), but the truth is, I am fairly agnostic on this, and will enjoy any well done RPG, regardless of perspective, approach, implementation details. Many of my all time favorite RPGs are isometric tactical ones (e.g. Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1/2, PST, Graphical NetHack).

But just looking at our favorite genre objectively, what I see is that there is a definite sense of coming a long way with action RPGs, from the Golden Age (late 90s/early 00s) to now. That doesn't mean that today's action RPGs are 100% better than Golden Age action RPGs in every way ( I can still put Gothic 1 or Gothic 2 up against any modern action RPG and have them fare well), but there are plenty of modern action RPGs that have done things old RPGs haven't, that have innovated and pushed things forward, and the subgenre as a whole is pretty healthy.

I would say for most people, the peak of Golden Age action RPGs would've been Gothic 1/2 (smart people), Morrowind/Daggerfall (dumb people), and Arx Fatalis and Bloodlines (action RPGs without action people). Well, in the last 10 years or so, you had games like Kingdom Come: Deliverance (amazing combat and realism and historical angle), Witcher 3 (great writing/lore/quests/graphics/physics/production values), ELEX (great exploration), Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom (not RPGs strictly speaking, but pretty similar, with amazing exploration, gameplay, world interactivity), and the Dark Souls lineage (combat and difficulty and interesting constructed worlds).

So again, I am not saying these newer games are shitting all over the old classics, but they are doing new stuff and pushing action RPGs forward, where it's a vibrant sub-genre.

Now, let's take a look at isometric tactical RPGs. Late 90s/early 2000s gave us Fallout 1/2, Baldur's Gate Saga, Planescape Torment, Divine Divinity, Arcanum. What have we had in this subgenre since then?

I haven't played all the isometric tactical RPGs since then, but I've either completed or put in a lot of hours into the following: Divinity Original Sin 1/2, Pillars of Eternity, Underrail, Age of Decadence, Wasteland 2, Pathfinder Kingmaker, Expeditions: Conquistador/Viking/Rome, Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall/Hong Kong, Battle Brothers, and probably some others I am forgetting now. So you could say I've had a lot of exposure to post-Decline isometric RPGs. And my general take on these is ... meh.

I am not coming at it from some niche perspective like a theorycrafting munchkin autist, or a pure combatfag, or a storyfag, but rather as someone who enjoys all aspects of RPGs, and when you judge these modern iso RPGs in that sense, most of them are severely lacking. Whether it's the dumb humor of Divinity games, the pretentious over-writing of PoE, the lack of non C&C content of AoD, or just horrible all around design of Wasteland 2/Kingmaker, most of these games just aren't very good. Even the few jewels in this mess that I happened to enjoy (S: Dragonfall and E: Viking in particular), while they were very good games, I wouldn't say they really pushed the subgenre forward in significant ways. Dragonfall if anything, is like a modern version of Fallout, a relatively short RPG that combines good writing, fun combat, great C&C into one all around good package. Battle Brothers is the one game that I feel like has done new things for the subgenre, but one game in the almost 20 years post-Decline? That's slim pickings.

So what's my point? Isometric tactical RPGs need to do better. They've been stagnant for too long. They should stop trying to emulate 20+ year old games (which they can't even do in most cases), and start doing innovative shit. being isometric means they are cheaper to make compared to first person/third person 3D photorealistic graphics, physics, full voice-overs in 2,000 languages. So capitalize on that, use the cheap simple worlds to create more content or new interesting mechanics or better AI or something.

 

[Bester]

I'm amazed at how many isometric-like and turn-based "RPGs" have come out that have zero to offer in the story department and that immediately means 0 interest from me. That's "Conquistador/Viking/Rome, Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall/Hong Kong, Battle Brothers". Would it kill them to hire a writer? And the ones that do have a story are written by you know who. So yeah, I'm almost in the same boat, for slightly different reasons.

 

[Butter]

Structured like a mystery with information gathering. Enemy factions get stronger over time.



The absolute best AI in any tactics or D&D game. Insane number of build options, plus an editor for community modules.



Strong focus on exploration and environmental interactions. Like Original Sin if Original Sin were actually good.



Combines tactical party combat with open-universe exploration sandbox. Like Starfield if Starfield were actually good.



As much an immersive sim as a traditional CRPG. More free-form and reactive than its late 90s forebears.

 

[Infinitron]

Dragonfall if anything, is like a modern version of Fallout, a relatively short RPG that combines good writing, fun combat, great C&C into one all around good package.

PSA: Just because you like a game, it doesn't mean it's like that other game which you also liked. Many such cases!

 

[Riddler]

Nah, Innovation has been happening, like the graphics in Deadfire for instance.

The issue is that the overall products have been unimpressive for various reasons (often either lacking compelling gameplay or writing). The innovations and improvements are only really noticed when they are part of an overall great product, which hasn't happened in the isometric space for a while.

 

[Bester]

Innovation has been happening, like the graphics in Deadfire for instance.

What's innovative about deadfire graphics? If anything, 3d models on 2d backgrounds look unnatural to me, kinda uncanny valley. Especially because as soon as you change the default zoom level, the 2d backgrounds look blurry due to texture filtering.

Not a big fan of increased/decreased game speed. Rather than doing that, running out of combat can be made automatically slightly faster, if you were trying to solve that problem.

Rest supplies were annoying.

 

[scytheavatar]

Dragonfall has the flat out best writing ever for a CRPG. or at least on par with Planescape Torment. If you did not like it then I question if you have ever played the game before.

 

[Bester]

No, I only played shadowrun returns. Would be weird if the first one had no writing, but the second one suddenly amazes you. How would that happen?

 

[scytheavatar]

No, I only played shadowrun returns. Would be weird if the first one had no writing, but the second one suddenly amazes you. How would that happen?

Second one was done by the B team which makes the A team look like a complete utter joke. Give it a fair chance cause it's a night and day improvement from the first game.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Dragonfall if anything, is like a modern version of Fallout, a relatively short RPG that combines good writing, fun combat, great C&C into one all around good package.

PSA: Just because you like a game, it doesn't mean it's like that other game which you also liked. Many such cases!

My point was merely that while I consider Dragonfall to be a great RPG, it doesn't really do anything new in the genre. If you look past the setting and the mobile UI, I do think that parallel between the two can be made.

No, I only played shadowrun returns. Would be weird if the first one had no writing, but the second one suddenly amazes you. How would that happen?

You should definitely play Dragonfall. I thought Shadowrun Returns was decent, but Dragonfall is much, much better. Hong Kong is somewhere in between.

 

[Tyranicon]

Isometric cRPGs without bear sex don't sell.

Why would anybody spend a fuckton of money to make a high production iso cRPG when they'll go bankrupt?

Even AA studios have moved away from the format. It's now mostly the realm of indies, especially indies that aren't "money-motivated."

 

[Bester]

Isometric cRPGs without bear sex don't sell.

Bullshit, didn't AoD sell for over a million? If you contain the costs, it's a workable business model.

 

[Kruyurk]

The reason for this lack of innovation are the roots in tabletop of most "isometric" RPGs. A computer is capable of so much more than emulating a PnP ruleset.
The isometric RPG genre is too much codified around PnP standards, like dices or skill checks, which prevents innovation. Worse, in recent years this PnP origin has become attractive for some reason, with actual dices appearing on screens.
A modern computer can achieve an incredible amount of computations at every second, yet this is only used for fancier graphics, while the gameplay of isometric RPGs stagnates at the D20 level. This trend will continue with the success of BG3.

One of the most innovative modern game that I can think of is Exanima, an action-RPG, with its physics-based combats. Creating such game is much harder than one based on a PnP style ruleset.

People bashing any attempt at RTwP are also responsible for this lack of innovation. What they ask for is stagnation and gamey rulesets. The fact that most RTwP systems suck does not mean that the idea of real-time itself is to blame. Real-time is the way for more simulation, along with physics.
Kenshi is RTwP and innovated quite a lot, while still revolving around simple statistics for its combats. It did not try to emulate a PnP experience, it really took advantage of its support, the computer. The "dice rolls" are not put on a pedestal for posers to admire, they are simply a way to generate randomness. This randomness could be generated by other means, notably appear by itself in a physics based system (because there are so many parameters).

The numbers by themselves should not be in the foreground. They are a mean to simulate something, not the actual point of roleplaying. A good example is Dark Souls: the numbers are visible on the character sheet and the item stats, but they disappear in the background when you don't look at them. When I was a kid dreaming about knights and dragons, I was not dreaming about fucking numbers and dices.

 

[Dadd]

Path of Exile 2 is coming out soon

 

[StrongBelwas]

Bullshit, didn't AoD sell for over a million? If you contain the costs, it's a workable business model.

I hope you mean a million dollars(Which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.)
And I wouldn't say it's a workable business model given Colony Ship may be their final title depending on how the next few months play out.

 

[Bester]

I hope you mean a million dollars(Which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.)

If it's not grand for you, maybe you could sponsor a couple RPGs of your own?

And I wouldn't say it's a workable business model given Colony Ship may be their final title depending on how the next few months play out.

Nobody forced them to a) spend so much, and b) make a poe-spiritual-sequel with over a billion words.
If I remember correctly, AoD was made with 3 people. 7 years is more than enoguh to ship an RPG for 3 people, but okay, 7 years it is. 1'000'000 / 3 / 7 / 12 = 4k bucks/month before taxes. But you don't have to pay taxes if you don't want to, there's all kinds of ways. So that's 4k/month per person after tax. Is it too low? If this isn't enough for them, maybe they don't want to make RPGs after all.

 

[Tyranicon]

Isometric cRPGs without bear sex don't sell.

Bullshit, didn't AoD sell for over a million? If you contain the costs, it's a workable business model.

Closer to two million USD gross, maybe even three million by now, you'd have to ask Vault Dweller

But that just reinforces my point, ITS is a very small indie studio, not even AA (although I'm sure a lot of people here would prefer them over the likes of Obsidian).

It's barely profitable enough for a widely-known indie studio to be making a living in, why do we think it's an attractive genre for others?

 

[Bester]

why do we think it's an attractive genre for others?

Others, like medium/large studios? Why do you care about them in the context of good RPGs? They don't matter.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Isometric cRPGs without bear sex don't sell.

Bullshit, didn't AoD sell for over a million? If you contain the costs, it's a workable business model.

I would think it's a workable model (though I am far from an expert), if people don't have unrealistic expectations and don't chase money too much. Obviously serious isometric tactical RPGs will generally not sell too much compared to other types of games (bear sex 3 success notwithstanding), but if you can put together a small team of enthusiasts, and use modern tools to cut costs (out of the box game engines, use AI procedural tools to generate some of the content, etc), feels like it should be doable.

People will of course say game A tried or studio B went under, but have many of these examples really tried to do something new and exciting? Usually when I see studios doing that, some hype is generated, but if you are just trying to recapture the glory of 90s RPGs without doing anything new or interesting, it's much harder to sell.

People managed to make a living from making quality isometric RPGs in 80s and 90s, they didn't sell that much back then either, and the target audience was so much smaller then. You pretty much have the entire world now playing video games, so even if you can get a tiny percentage of that to buy yours (even on sale), the money should add up as long as you are not spending too much.

 

[Bester]

Obviously serious isometric tactical RPGs will generally not sell too much compared to other types of games

I think it's one of the best selling genres on PC for indies, that and RTS.

 

[Butter]

People managed to make a living from making quality isometric RPGs in 80s and 90s, they didn't sell that much back then either, and the target audience was so much smaller then. You pretty much have the entire world now playing video games, so even if you can get a tiny percentage of that to buy yours (even on sale), the money should add up as long as you are not spending too much.

This might be true, but it's not exactly apples to apples. There are so many more games being made that it's difficult to stand out, and games are sold for much much less than they used to be. Not only are most PC players savvy enough to wait for a discount, but game prices have been mostly unchanged for the past 20 years while inflation has kept chugging along.

 

[Tyranicon]

why do we think it's an attractive genre for others?

Others, like medium/large studios? Why do you care about them in the context of good RPGs? They don't matter.

I don't ofc, because I have a species of naked disgust for most larger studios. But if we're talking about the industry at large and why iso cRPGs are stagnant, this is the reason why.

In my opinion, the genre doesn't need signficant innovation since devs can't get the basics right. There are three main methods of producing not only a great cRPG, but one that will be profitable:

• Great stylistic presentation (production value, art, etc)
• Great writing
• Great combat (and gamplay in general but combat is king)

If you nail all three, you'll have the game of the decade. BG3 is merely acceptable on all these (except production value, a lot of money was spent here) and achieved great success. It's also not isometric, I guess.

If you nail one, you'll get Battle Brothers or Disco (which supposedly has great writing).

 

[Falksi]

CRPG devs recognizing the 90's & 00's formula was pretty perfect, and just needed a few QoL tweaks such as improved pathfinding and UI, is the most innovative thing to have happened in gaming.

It's Adam turning turn to Eve when she tells him to eat the apple, and slapping her then shafting her instead.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I wouldn't say there was zero innovation, out of the more recent stuff Solasta has tried some cool things with very vertical maps and less-is-more approach to combat.

But yeah, most modern interpretations are playing it very safe and mostly just checking the boxes.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

People managed to make a living from making quality isometric RPGs in 80s and 90s, they didn't sell that much back then either, and the target audience was so much smaller then. You pretty much have the entire world now playing video games, so even if you can get a tiny percentage of that to buy yours (even on sale), the money should add up as long as you are not spending too much.

This might be true, but it's not exactly apples to apples. There are so many more games being made that it's difficult to stand out, and games are sold for much much less than they used to be. Not only are most PC players savvy enough to wait for a discount, but game prices have been mostly unchanged for the past 20 years while inflation has kept chugging along.

Well, that's why you need to do something new and interesting, so your game stands out. Someone mentioned Exanima above, that game has a very unique approach, and people are hyped for it. But if you are just pushing out Fallout 1 clone #45667 (of much inferior quality too), then yeah, it's hard to stand out.

As far as sales/discounts/inflation, I am not really buying that. It's a numbers game, how many people played PC games in late 90s? Very, very few. Well now, it's billions pretty much. And Steam sales, their effects are not so clear, before Steam/GoG sales, you had to fork over $40/50 for a game, for a lot of people that's a lot of money to spend on entertainment, so they could only buy a small amount of games. Now, with massive sales on these online portals, people can buy a lot more games, so while developers get less per copy, they get more copies sold overall.