Shadowrun Is Shadowrun Returns a cRPG? Case study

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Tim Cain criticized Fallout 2 for being Monty Haul because they added more weapons and armors http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=7

Killzig: What did you think of the Advanced Power Armor?

Tim Cain: Killzig, FO is going a little monty haul

Tim Cain: My idea is explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a postnuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.

And? An interviewer asks specifically about Advanced Power Armor in Fallout 2, and Tim Cain's response implies that it was overpowered ("a little Monty Haul"). In any case, finding an example of someone misusing a term proves nothing, or else RPGs would include everything, nothing, and anything in between.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

 

[Fairfax]

Tim Cain criticized Fallout 2 for being Monty Haul because they added more weapons and armors http://www.duckandcover.cx/content.php?id=7

Killzig: What did you think of the Advanced Power Armor?

Tim Cain: Killzig, FO is going a little monty haul

Tim Cain: My idea is explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a postnuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.

Monty Haul was an issue in FO1 already, it just got more extreme with every new Fallout. FO1 didn't have a lot of loot, but most (if not all) of the best weapons and gear were easy to acquire or sold by NPCs, including the power armour. With the right stats, you could basically get one for free, which is as non-grog as it gets.

 

[almondblight]

I have to admit I haven't played this game, but it sounds fucking awesome.

It's a bit of a mixed bag. Some parts are very nice, but there are a lot of rough patches as well - lots of trash mobs (much worse than PoE 3.0), poorly implemented first person exploration (a ton of time is spent looking at one completely empty completely nondescript corridor after another), clunky features (clunky UI, lots of time spent juggling weight, having to select every spell for every character all over again when you rest if you want to re-memorize them, being prompted to look up dialogue in the manual, etc.).

Stuff like disguising yourself as a monster to sneak in to the evil side of town isn't really that developed - when you enter one particular map, the game just asks you whether or not you want to disguise yourself. You either hit yes and walk around, or hit no and are swarmed by monsters (there are some interesting things that happens while you walk around in disguise, though).

What's nice about the game, though, is that it's focused on having a fun fantasy adventure. So you're clearing out monster infested ruins, then stumbling on a bandit layer, breaking in to an old fortress, etc. You don't get any of the stuff PoE throws at you where the writers tried to make you play a social worker and create serious mature drama ("Should I tell this amnesiac that she has been raped and impregnated by her uncle?"/"Do I tell these parents that there son was killed trying to defend a prostitute who was about to be raped in an alley?"/etc.).

 

[Jason Liang]

Finally, I have found a use for the class I took with George Lakoff!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_concept

A fuzzy concept is a concept of which the boundaries of application can vary considerably according to context or conditions, instead of being fixed once and for all. This means the concept is vague in some way, lacking a fixed, precise meaning, without however being unclear or meaningless altogether. It has a definite meaning, which can be made more precise only through further elaboration and specification - including a closer definition of the context in which the concept is used. The study of the characteristics of fuzzy concepts and fuzzy language is called fuzzy semantics.

In the past, the very idea of reasoning with fuzzy concepts faced considerable resistance from academic elites. They did not want to endorse the use of imprecise concepts in research or argumentation. Yet although people might not be aware of it, the use of fuzzy concepts has risen gigantically in all walks of life from the 1970s onward. That is mainly due to advances in electronic engineering, fuzzy mathematics and digital computer programming. The new technology allows very complex inferences about "variations on a theme" to be anticipated and fixed in a program.

Let's do a little exercise-

1. Is Shadowrun (SNES) an rpg? y
2. Is Shadowrun (Genesis) an rpg? y

3. Is GTA 1 an rpg? n
4. Is GTA 2 an rpg? n
5. Are GTA 3, Vice City and San Andreas rpgs? n
6. Is GTA IV an rpg? n
7. Is GTA V an rpg? n

8. Is AD&D Pool of Radiance/ Goldbox games an rpg? y
9. Are Dark Sun 1 and 2 rpgs? y
10. Is Shadow Sorcerer an rpg? n
11. Is Darklands an rpg? y
12. Is BG1 an rpg? y
13. Is BG2 and rpg? y
14. Is Diablo an rpg? n
15. Is Diablo 2 an rpg? n
16. Is Gauntlet an rpg? n
17. Is Legend of Zelda an rpg? n
18. Is Metroid an rpg? n
19. Is Castlevania 2 an rpg? n
20. Is Zelda 2: Adventures of Link an rpg? y
21. Is Crystalis an rpg? y
22. Is Path of Exile an rpg? n
23. Is Pillars of Eternity an rpg? barely
24. Is Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance an rpg? n
25. Is Marvel: Ultimate Alliance an rpg? n

26. Are Eye of the Beholder 1-3 rpgs? y
27. Are Ravenloft 1 and 2 rpgs? y
28. Is NWN an rpg? y
29. Is Doom an rpg? n
30. Was Everquest an rpg? y
31. Is World of Warcraft an rpg? y
32. Is Zelda: Ocarina of Time an rpg? n

33. Is Daggerfall an rpg? y
34. Is Morrowind an rpg? y
35. Is Oblivion an rpg? y
36. Is Skyrim an rpg? y

37. Is Vampire: Redemption an rpg? y
38. Is Vampire: Bloodlines an rpg? y

39. Is Deus Ex an rpg? y
40. Is Bioshock an rpg? n

41. Is KotOR an rpg? y
42. Is KotOR 2 an rpg? y
43. Is Fallout: NV an rpg? y

44. Is Zork an rpg? n
45. Is Shadowgate an rpg? n
46. Is Maniac Mansion an rpg? n
47. Is Gabriel Knight an rpg? n
48. Are King's Quest 1-VII rpgs? n
49. Is Loom an rpg? n
50. Is Myst an rpg? n
51. Is Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis an rpg? n
52. Is Flashback an rpg? n
53. Is PST an rpg? y
54. Is TToN an rpg? y

55. Is Jagged Alliance an rpg? n
56. Is Jagged Alliance 2 an rpg? not quite
57. Is Invisible Inc an rpg? not quite
58. Is Star Control 2 an rpg? not quite
59. Is Shadowrun: DMS an rpg? y
60. Is Shadowrun: Dragonfall an rpg? y

As you can see, rpg is truly a fuzzy concept. The main factors used to identify a game as an rpg, not an rpg, or an rpg hybrid seem to be (in order of priority):

Primary-
I. The gameplay does not clearly identify in a different, clearly defined genre, such as adventure game (Loom), action-adventure game (Zelda 1), action-rpg (Diablo), tactical-rpg (Final Fantasy Tactics, Shining Force 1, HoMM3, HBS Battletech), FPS (Doom), FP Stealth, FP action-adventure (GTA), turn based tactics (Jagged Alliance, Invisible Inc)
II. The game has at least 1 player character with combat statistics
III. The game has combat which is resolved partially through statistics
IV. The game tracks player character health
V. The game has character progression
VI. The game has clearly defined and consistent rule systems for things associated with rpgs such as character progression, combat resolution, character classes, character attributes, character abilities, health status and healing, and weapons/ equipment
VII. Reading text is important to gameplay
VIII. The game is clearly designed for single player (unless it is primarily an online game)
IX. The game has at least a basic setting and premise
X. The game based on an original PnP rpg property
XI. The game produced by an established rpg developer

Secondary-
The game has turn-based combat
The game tracks the player's inventory
The game has random loot
The game has a monetary system
The game has a complicated story
Combat has it's own distinct gameplay UI
The game has one or more NPCs
Players control multiple characters
Players can create their own character(s)
Game has a fictional setting which is at best very loosely based on real places and history

Tertiary-
The game has a law and/or reputation system
The game is not played with a joystick
NPCs have statistics and/or can be manipulated/ killed
PCs have skills

Ok, discuss!

 

[Blaine]

FRIENDSHIP ENDED WITH JASON LIANG

 

[thesheeep]

Jason Liang You got quite a few games wrong, many of your primary factors are irrelevant, and some tertiary ones seem to be duplicates of primary ones.
Not sure if you are just trolling with that stuff, tbh...

But your biggest mistake is this:
You forgot The Sims.

Playing a tangible role? Yep.
Outcomes of character's actions based entirely on character stats (+ RNG), not player skill ? Yep, even if incredibly basic.
Character building/advancement? Yeah, even if incredibly basic.

So... yeah, The Sims is an RPG.
Even if a pretty damn boring and simplistic one.

 

[Jason Liang]

Jason Liang You got quite a few games wrong, many of your primary factors are irrelevant, and some tertiary ones seem to be duplicates of primary ones.
Not sure if you are just trolling with that stuff, tbh...

But your biggest mistake is this:
You forgot The Sims.

Playing a tangible role? Yep.
Outcomes of character's actions based entirely on character stats (+ RNG), not player skill ? Yep, even if incredibly basic.
Character building/advancement? Yeah, even if incredibly basic.

So... yeah, The Sims is an RPG.
Even if a pretty damn boring and simplistic one.

No combat.
No combat statistics.
Does not track health.
Produced by a studio not known for rpgs.
Branded into a non-rpg genre (Sim brand - SimCity, etc...)
Barely any text.

The Sims is clearly NOT an rpg.

 

[Roguey]

And? An interviewer asks specifically about Advanced Power Armor in Fallout 2, and Tim Cain's response implies that it was overpowered ("a little Monty Haul"). In any case, finding an example of someone misusing a term proves nothing, or else RPGs would include everything, nothing, and anything in between.

Straight from the site's founder in year one:

All of BioWare's games tend to give out overly powerful items like they were common, which makes their games easier than they should be towards the end of them. There's a term for this in RPGing, it's called "Monty Haul", and it's not generally a good design.

 

[thesheeep]

So... yeah, The Sims is an RPG.
Even if a pretty damn boring and simplistic one.

No combat.
No combat statistics.

Irrelevant.
Nothing other than your own inane method to define a genre by singular entries says RPGs have to have combat.
Meanwhile, I have no trouble imagining an RPG where you e.g. play a cook and everything from cutting a cucumber to arranging a beautiful meal is determined solely by different skills of the character. You could even split the process into phases with clearly defined rules.
Besides, there are numerous PnP RPGs out there without any combat at all.

There must be some challenges to overcome by the character's actions using the character's stats, but this challenge can be everything, combat or not.

Does not track health.

Irrelevant AND wrong.
It has no health points, but there are other methods of tracking the physical condition.

Produced by a studio not known for rpgs.
Branded into a non-rpg genre (Sim brand - SimCity, etc...)

Irrelevant.
If the majority of people suddenly said that 2+3 = 6, it wouldn't make it right.
Opinions (which includes brandings) cannot be any factor at all in determining an objectively applicable genre definition.

And the developer is of course irrelevant in determining the genre of a game.
As proven by the fact that a game can still be an RPG if its developer were unknown.

Barely any text.

Irrelevant.
Games like ADOM, Dungeon Crawl, etc. barely have any text, either, if you exclude descriptions of what is happening - in The Sims, those descriptions are visual/audio for the most part.

The Sims is clearly NOT an rpg.

You might be right, but not for any of the reasons you mentioned...

So... let's see how many people I can convince that The Sims is an RPG

 

[Jason Liang]

So... yeah, The Sims is an RPG.
Even if a pretty damn boring and simplistic one.

No combat.
No combat statistics.

Irrelevant.
Nothing other than your own inane method to define a genre by singular entries says RPGs have to have combat.
Meanwhile, I have no trouble imagining an RPG where you e.g. play a cook and everything from cutting a cucumber to arranging a beautiful meal is determined solely by different skills of the character.
Besides, there are numerous PnP RPGs out there without any combat at all.

If an RPG doesn't have RPG combat, it becomes an adventure game like Monkey Island or Loom.

 

[thesheeep]

If an RPG doesn't have RPG combat, it becomes an adventure game like Monkey Island or Loom.

Those are adventure games in which the character does not have to overcome any challenges at all using his skills - there aren't even skills.
You might have written this before I edited my answer, so I repeat the important bit:

There must be some challenges to overcome by the character's actions using the character's stats, but this challenge can be everything, combat or not.

Just because you prefer RPGs with combat, doesn't mean that combat defines RPGs.
That would be an incredibly short sighted and entirely subjective claim.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

And? An interviewer asks specifically about Advanced Power Armor in Fallout 2, and Tim Cain's response implies that it was overpowered ("a little Monty Haul"). In any case, finding an example of someone misusing a term proves nothing, or else RPGs would include everything, nothing, and anything in between.

Straight from the site's founder in year one:

All of BioWare's games tend to give out overly powerful items like they were common, which makes their games easier than they should be towards the end of them. There's a term for this in RPGing, it's called "Monty Haul", and it's not generally a good design.

You are being absurd. And it comes as no surprise that after taking a long break from spamming a new soundbite catchphrase, you come back with an old one. It's as if you can't actually communicate without some from of idiotic meaningless fashionable soundbite.

The thing about soundbites is once they become fashionable, everyone uses them, everywhere. You know... memes. Are you going to be quoting in 10 years time the exact level of Sawyer's "Chadness"? Just because someone used the word chad in conversation with him once? Do you even.

Monty Haul is a piece of string. At one end you have fuck all loot and at the other you have an aRPG with a loot-finding bonus skill tree. Also, games are easy when you know what's coming and are used to how the game works. A new Dark Souls player with no experience with that type of game will have a significantly harder time of it than someone who has speed records in Demon Souls. And it has fuck all to do with if the game lets them use a weapon with 10% extra damage followed by a weapon with 15% extra damage half an hour later.

And in most cases, including BG2, the most powerful items are hidden behind extremely 'difficult' encounters that many might not even either find nor bother to take on. If this quote of yours was sincere and not just someone spouting a fashionable meme with the common laziness you'd expect of common meme soundbites, what the fuck did he make of Diablo 2? If BG2 is 'fully' Monty Haul then what the fuck is Diablo 2? Inb4 you only reply to this last question with some crap wit and completely ignore the point and any understanding of it...

 

[Blaine]

There must be some challenges to overcome by the character's actions using the character's stats, but this challenge can be everything, combat or not.

Just because you prefer RPGs with combat, doesn't mean that combat defines RPGs.
That would be an incredibly short sighted and entirely subjective claim.

It may be most technically correct to say that conflict is a defining trait of cRPGs, since physical combat isn't strictly necessary—although damned near 100% of cRPGs include conflict in the form of physical combat or a close analogue, and often heavily. To say that combat isn't a defining trait of cRPGs is the worst sort of pedantry and hair-splitting. Yes, the challenge can be anything, but far more often than not in cRPGs, some or most of the challenge is combat-related. It's natural to "prefer" cRPGs with combat when almost all of them do include combat.

Conflict creates interest, so in addition to being a defining trait of RPGs and cRPGs, it's also a defining trait of most entertainment media with any sort of story structure. British mysteries rely on social and political conflict, for example. Electronic games distinguish themselves by relying on conflict in the form of combat much more heavily than any other form of entertainment media, even in the absence of a story structure. There are plenty of exceptions, such as adventure games and pure puzzle games, but on balance games include far more combat proportionally than books, films, movies, the theater, or board games, although board games too (chess being the prime example) are often thematically or abstractly based on war or combat. This is natural, since most play, at its essence, is a form of practice for the real conflicts and challenges of adulthood. See: lion clubs play-fighting, young boys across many cultures play-fighting with sticks, etc.

Conflict-as-combat is therefore objectively a defining trait of electronic games in comparison to other entertainment media, even though not all games absolutely must include combat in order to be games or to be enjoyable. By the same token, conflict-as-combat is a defining trait of cRPGs, although not strictly necessary nor exclusive to cRPGs.

I'd go so far as to say that in the realm of games, conflict-as-combat is at its highest form in RPGs, for the simple reason that RPGs tend to provide the most context for their combats: player choice in choosing and customizing combatants, C&C, and often elaborate backstories explaining the motivations of individuals and factions participating in combat.

In summary, you'll not find a single cRPG free of conflict, unlike, say, pure puzzle games, which often only include challenges. Furthermore this conflict almost always features combat, and often heavily.

 

[thesheeep]

There must be some challenges to overcome by the character's actions using the character's stats, but this challenge can be everything, combat or not.

Just because you prefer RPGs with combat, doesn't mean that combat defines RPGs.
That would be an incredibly short sighted and entirely subjective claim.

It may be most technically correct to say that conflict is a defining trait of cRPGs, since physical combat isn't strictly necessary—although damned near 100% of cRPGs include conflict in the form of physical combat or a close analogue, and often heavily. To say that combat isn't a defining trait of cRPGs is the worst sort of pedantry and hair-splitting. Yes, the challenge can be anything, but far more often than not in cRPGs, some or most of the challenge is combat-related.

Since we are looking for a correct definition here, we need to be pedantic and hair-splitting. There is way, way, waaaayyy to much wishwash going on when people talk about what is an RPG. Some even say it is like a doughnut!
The only way to counter stuff like that is utmost precision.

I agree that almost all RPGs (the c is irrelevant, but hey if you want, you can claim it stands for combat ) feature combat.
But as you said, it is not a requirement for the definition and therefore not a requirement to call something an RPG.
That's all I'm talking about, the definition.

I'm against definitions that include words like "usually". If it isn't a 100% requirement (and it isn't), it shouldn't be part of the definition. Simple as that.
"RPGs usually contain combat" doesn't help anyone.

Human beings are usually Asian.

Seriously, though, if someone told me that cRPGs are RPGs that always feature combat (among other conditions, maybe), I'd be fine with that.

 

[V_K]

This discussion is moot, we already have the epitome of pure RPG - Progress Quest.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I'm against definitions that include words like "usually". If it isn't a 100% requirement (and it isn't), it shouldn't be part of the definition. Simple as that.

Cake without flour:

So what's the secret? It uses 1 cup unsweetened cocoa powder instead. A powder. Which is flour. Basically.

A cake without any powdered/ground/heavily blendered dry foodstuffs:

...

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

This discussion is moot, we already have the epitome of pure RPG - Progress Quest.

It's also the wrong discussion, what do you personally think about Shadowrun Returns Dead Man's Switch? With regards to it's RPGness? Happy with it? Disappointed? How would you describe it to friends?

 

[Blaine]

I'm against definitions that include words like "usually". If it isn't a 100% requirement (and it isn't), it shouldn't be part of the definition. Simple as that.

As tempting as it may be to rely on this simplistic all-or-nothing approach to defining things, it's functionally useless for complex and, perhaps more importantly, dynamic concepts. With such an all-or-nothing approach to defining complex and dynamic concepts, you end up with an extremely narrow definition that requires a great deal of additional explanation and illustration to properly represent the thing being defined.

"Very often feature combat," for example, is a perfectly acceptable descriptor for cRPGs. You can choose to leave this out of your theoretical perfect definition of cRPGs, but in doing so you omit factual and pertinent information.

I distinguished RPGs from cRPGs above because tabletop RPGs can much more easily get away with including less combat proportionally, or even no combat at all, than cRPGs can. That's not to say that cRPGs can't pull it off, just that it's more difficult.

 

[Lazing Dirk]

This discussion is moot, we already have the epitome of pure RPG - Progress Quest.

I'm a level 91 trans-kobold!

 

[mondblut]

Let's do a little exercise-

Does it feel like playing D&D with your buddies?

If y, then RPG.

You are welcome.

 

[Jason Liang]

Let's do a little exercise-

Does it feel like playing D&D with your buddies?

If y, then RPG.

You are welcome.

Actually BG: Dark Alliance feels the most like playing D&D with buddies, since it's got co-op multiplayer gameplay. Is it an rpg? No. Because computer rpgs identify almost exclusively as single player games.

Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2

Dungeons and Dragons: Heroes. Actually the game I'm thinking of is almost certainly this one, not Dark Alliance.

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara also feels like playing D&D for the same reason.

Dungeons and Dragons: Tower of Doom

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara. Awesome game; NOT an rpg.

 

[mondblut]

Does it feel like playing D&D with your buddies?

If y, then RPG.

You are welcome.

Actually BG: Dark Alliance feels the most like playing D&D with buddies, since it's got co-op multiplayer gameplay. Is it an rpg? No. Because computer rpgs identify almost exclusively as single player games.

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara also feels like playing D&D for the same reason.

"with buddies" is not the keyword, dummy. You've got friends or something?

I should have written "playing D&D on your table" to set priorities straight for sociowhores.

 

[thesheeep]

I'm against definitions that include words like "usually". If it isn't a 100% requirement (and it isn't), it shouldn't be part of the definition. Simple as that.

Cake without flour:

So what's the secret? It uses 1 cup unsweetened cocoa powder instead. A powder. Which is flour. Basically.

I see you are not very well versed in the culinary arts.
Too bad for you.
Also, thanks for making me hungry...

As tempting as it may be to rely on this simplistic all-or-nothing approach to defining things, it's functionally useless for complex and, perhaps more importantly, dynamic concepts. With such an all-or-nothing approach to defining complex and dynamic concepts, you end up with an extremely narrow definition that requires a great deal of additional explanation and illustration to properly represent the thing being defined.

Where the hell do the following three lines seem to require "a great deal of additional explanation" to you?

You must have one or more gameplay-affecting avatars in the game.
There must be character building/advancement.
The outcome of a character's actions is determined by the character's skills/stats/attributes, and NOT by player skill.

Even if you wanted to add a combat requirement, it would only make things MORE complicated.
My definition is easier AND factually correct.
Of course, you can try to draw up the image of pastries and see how much that helps people defining a genre.

 

[V_K]

The outcome of a character's actions is determined by the character's skills/stats/attributes, and NOT by player skill.

Just for the sake of being argumentative, this is a rather tricky point. If we take player skill completely out of the equation, we'll get, as I've said, Progress Quest. Combat tactics is already a player skill, and arguably so is build optimization.