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Is Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance the best game ever made?

Martius

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
1,058
Meh, combat in this is way too QTE-ish for my taste, also I have trouble understanding mechanics it seems. Getting completely raped by those two legged robot walkers, they seem to be getting no damage at all no matter how much I slice them, except when sometimes I get a QTE to jump on top of one. Is that from accidentally parrying it? I can't tell.
From what I can remember there are few kinds of qte for that enemy. Some will activate after damaging it enough (or some part of it) while another is result of perfect parry. I can agree that parrying mechanics in poorly explained in first mission. Strangely enough its explained much better in optional tutorial. I would advice buying dodge move, its called "offensive defensive".
 
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
7,343
Yeah I got the dodge move already, but don't see much use for it as parrying seems the only way to beat a lot of enemies, otherwise I seem to be doing zero damage. Now I'm stuck in sewers with 3 UGs and I have no idea how to beat them, not even one of them, must've done over 20 tries already and didn't even land a single parry. This game is annoying me. Shame, because I was actually starting to have fun until this. Two boss fights, the dog and the multihanded chick, were quite fun and I actually managed to beat them both on first try.
*edit* Oh shit, apparently this was a forced lame stealth section. I didn't even realize those are gonna be in this game. Oh well, I got past those 3 shits and seems I'm able to kill stuff again.
 
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Ivan

Arcane
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Jun 22, 2013
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California
Bros, just started playing and for the life of me I can't figure out how to do the Offensive Defensive. Is this meant to replace the parry? I parry and connect it (it does a forward slash and a quick dash back) is that what it's meant to do?
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
Bros, just started playing and for the life of me I can't figure out how to do the Offensive Defensive. Is this meant to replace the parry? I parry and connect it (it does a forward slash and a quick dash back) is that what it's meant to do?

you hit da a button and da x button at da same time.
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
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I got it. I thought this would be a parry-attack move but it's more effective as a side step for unblockable moves. I also like how if you parry too early you merely block.
 

7h30n

Augur
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
311
Bros, just started playing and for the life of me I can't figure out how to do the Offensive Defensive. Is this meant to replace the parry? I parry and connect it (it does a forward slash and a quick dash back) is that what it's meant to do?

It's not meant to replace the parry but it has some insane invincibility frames which are a must on Very Hard and Revengeance. Oh and invincibility frames are really invincible to everything, you gotta try that at the final boss fight xD
 

7h30n

Augur
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
311
Is it possible to start a New Game+ on a higher difficulty?

Yes, after you finish one playthrough, press continue in the menu and you will start NG+ after you select one of the difficulties offered. Unfortunately I don't know if there is a way to start a different NG+ when one is already in play (without finishing it).
 

AlexOfSpades

Arcane
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
494
Parry protip: You press attack, then you press the key towards the enemy. Not the other way around. Attack first, then direction.

Dodge protip: The direction you dodge changes the animation. Side-dodges are excellent for avoiding blade wolf's spinny air drill thing, gorilla UG & armstrong grapples.

Jetstream Sam DLC protip: Taunt enemies, then use forward + tap heavy slash (for the dash), then hold. This will make Sam do a ranged charged attack that can kill even the last boss in just a few uses if he's taunted. (About 8 or 9 for the whole fight).
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
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Location
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Which Platinum/Clover game has the best combat and why? Which elements of each do you enjoy most and wish were retained in newer games?

God Hand: it has the most cathartic hand to hand combat I've ever enjoyed in any game. the dodge mechanic is easy to use but very hard to master (especially once enemies start mixing up their attacks that require sidestepping or backflipping). the completely customizable moveset makes the progression worthwhile; the way the difficulty adapts to how successful you are at dealing out punishment without receiving any is simply brilliant; the bosses are ok save for the utterly exceptional Devil Hand boss

Bayonetta: combat doesn't feel as satisfying/hard hitting; witch time (slow mo gimmick) makes most of the combat too easy; Grace and Glory are some of the best enemies of any hack and slash (shame the rest of the baddies are pretty meh and look alike); insta death qte's -_- bitching soundtrack though

Revengeance: holy shit, this is what I want Bayonetta to feel like; the camera is set closer to Raiden's back and it actually works (fuck the haters) because no matter wherever an off screen enemy may be their attack is always telegraphed to you via the red line; it ditches the boring environmental traversal of bayonetta for non stop action; badass bosses; hit or miss soundtrack; Ripper mode is pretty much a FUCK YOU BUTTON the probem is that you can quickly restore its power by raping the weaker enemies

Wonderful 101 or Hideki Kamiya's best game ever: switch between 7 weapons on the fly; incredible God of War-esque bosses that require smart use of weapons; qte's that require you to switch to certain weapons instead of pressing a button; the weapons magnification mechanic is fucking awesome; the dodge and block mechanics are hard as fuck to get down; game oozes charm and has a great soundtrack; Kamiya at his best

Bayonetta 2: haven't played it yet. hope they made the combat more hard hitting
 
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Phage

Arcane
Manlet
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Messages
4,696
Pretty much my thoughts on GH, Bayo and Revengeance. Good objectively correct taste there Ivan I haven't actually played W101 so I don't know about that one, but when I eventually get a Wuu I will.
 
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As it would turn out, the two DLC chapters, Jetstream Sam and Bladewolf, are now free (or have been for some time. Great excuse to fire up the game again and play some new content.

I'm glad I didn't shell out ten clams for this. A lot of recycled content played through with a character whose playstyle is pretty boring and linear.

The DLC puts the player in control of Jetstream Sam, before he joined the Desperado mercenary group. The Brasilian Samurai travels to Denver in order to assault the headquarters of Desperado's parent company, World Marshall. Area-wise, he begins in sewers eerily reminiscent of R-02 in the main game (and even lampshades this with a snide comment about how these sewers feel awfully familiar) transitioning to the locales of R-04 (the chapter in which Raiden ran rampant through World Marshall's building) with a few rooms made for the DLC. The encounters within the area, however, are changed up as are item box locations, filled with sub-weapon pickups as well as health/energy upgrades (Sam does not purchase his upgrades as his DLC is only one long mission, slightly larger than any one of Raiden's outings). One can't really fault a dev for being economical and reusing assets that aren't central to the action gaming experience; I don't really care too much about the (uninteractive) scenery in these types of games. Lord knows I've spent dozens of hours in the generic arenas of things like DMC2-4 Bloody Palace, Bayonetta's Lost Chapter, NG2 Survival Mode, or God Hand's arena. It's all about the combat and mechanics, not the feng shui of the place it's set in.

But Sam's design leaves a lot to be desired. While he certainly plays differently from Raiden, it's not a terribly fun playstyle. And that's a typo or misuse of verbiage...Sam can't be played in many ways like Raiden can, being mostly built around a gimmicky Taunt ability.

See, the Cool Wind of Brasil relies upon his sword, lacking any of the secondary options Raiden could bust out (L'Etranger, Tactical Sai, Pincer Blades) to change things up. And like Raiden's sword, the moveset isn't terribly interesting. Sure, there are different strings, but few of them have compelling properties, few of them are really worthwhile in a tactical sense. HF-Blade movesets in MGR lack strings with the distinctive properties that other action games that follow the combo-tree model (e.g. Ninja Gaiden, Lords of Shadow, Bayonetta) have in the movesets of their weaponry.

Unless one is playing Revengeance to look cool, throwing in things like Breakdances or Palm Thrusts because they're awesome to watch, (non-Parry, non-Ripper) offense with the HF-Blade is mostly going to revolve around spamming one move that stuffs the most damage output into the fewest quantity of frames. With Raiden, this was either Sky High (->->Light) or his Stinger-like move (->->Heavy), using Blade Mode to cancel the recovery frames for faster spamming. With Sam, it's a similar story. Either use Quick Draw ([Hold] Heavy) or spam Assault Rush (->-> Heavy) and cancel recovery with Blade Mode. Hell, Assault Rush is really good, being a fast, high-damage, unblockable, launching move. It's like Sky High rolled in with the unblockable aerial heavy of the Polearm.

Platinum clearly tried to give Sam some different basic properties and core moves to set him apart from Raiden, but save the Taunt/Dodge, few of them have any real impact.

Sam is supposed to be more of an aerial character, having a double jump, an air dash, and the ability to charge his Quick Draw while airborne. But MGR doesn't really reward aerial combat. It's not particularly safe, it's not powerful, and it really doesn't *feel* all that good. It's just...there. As such, these additions to Sam's character do little to spice up the core combat gameplay, only making for some mildly entertaining platforming at some points (a lot more fun than Raiden's Insta-Parkour).

Parrying isn't really Sam's forte. His parry has a lot longer recovery and his perfect parry seems a little slower, and more often auto-dodged by enemies. Furthermore, Taunted enemies cannot be perfect parried and they will actually deal chip damage through regular parries.

His dodge shares the same input as Raiden's Offensive Defense, but is a somersault/cartwheel instead of a dash plus slash. It's a bit longer of an animation, but is wreathed in invincibility frames. Strangely, Sam can't offset his strings with a dodge like Raiden can, greatly reducing his ability to utilize longer combo strings in pitched combat; Dodge Offset was really the only thing that made a lot of Raiden's longer strings even viable on higher difficulties. And it's also rather odd that Sam wasn't designed to be able to "store" Quick Draw charge status while dodging, a la Bayonetta and Shuraba/Pillow-Talk; this would have made the mechanic much more versatile and interesting to use, allowing good players to build up charge in even the most heated combats, as opposed to only being able to use it in "safe" times.

Finally, there's his Taunt, the gimmick he's pretty much built around. Sam can press Up on the directional pad and he'll ape Giantdad, asking enemies "Well, what is it?" and enraging them. Angered enemies will briefly show a red symbol over their head and carry a reddish glow for as long as the remain in the Taunted state. Enraged enemies attack more often, do more damage, and tend to prioritize different moves, usually making much greater use of dash attacks or grabs. However, enemies take an enormous penalty to their defense when Taunted, with damage amounts and de-limbing chances that make it seem like Sam has engaged Ripper Mode.

The content is mostly built around this mechanic, as without Taunting, Sam's damage output is rather lackluster, but with it he can match the sort of speed with which Raiden dispatches foes. And this isn't really a good thing as Sam's playstyle becomes incredibly linear, forcing the player to follow the line of play that is [Taunt->Attack].

Linear playstyles aren't always bad, though, but it's just not particularly fun in this instance. Take cyborg fights, for example. Taunted cyborgs, even Heavies, are piss easy to dispatch with Quick Draw; they die extremely quickly and don't really have much of a way to interrupt a charge from afar. Fights against (most) UGs are a bit more difficult, but not much more interesting. The player Taunts them, and then dodges around to find opening in which to attack, occasionally refreshing the Taunt status.

Sam's style is just not compelling in the same way as Raiden's gameplay was. With Raiden, the entire game was designed so that the player could always be on the offense. The parry system and Offensive Defense allowed skilled players to deal with enemy attacks while simultaneously meting out damage. That's what set it apart from other action games wherein the defensive techniques force gaps in a player's offensive tempo. But the same can't be said of Sam, as he's pretty much like most other action game characters in that his defensive moves, which he is often forced to utilize, stall his aggression.

The content side of this extra chapter doesn't really make up for the mechanical shortcomings either.

All of the enemies and bosses are recycled from the original game, though some have received significant tuning, especially Blade Wolf, Mastiffs, and Senator Armstrong. Tuned-up enemies are faster, more aggressive, and some even sport improved moves (or even new ones in the case of Mr. Nanomachines). It's good to see some effort put into improving the enemies, but many of the tune-ups make the enemies a lot less fun to fight. For every benign upgrade (like Blade Wolf or Metal Gear RAY), there's something obnoxious (Mastiffs and Armstrong). Speeding up weaker bosses, making them more aggressive and choose better moves is a great way to spice up old content. Making an enemy type that was already bordering on "cheap" even more absurd (enjoy some asinine attack stacks when taunting three Mastiffs; sometimes there is no way to avoid damage) is kinda silly. Taking a challenging (and fun) endboss and morphing him into a grab-spamming, attack-canceling, death-dealing uberboss? Out comes Graham Chapman's Colonel...things have gotten way too silly here.

There aren't any new enemy designs built around Sam's unique abilities, and none of the enemies were significantly altered to be more fun as Sam. A quick example of what they could have done is to make Armstrong's fire wall attack have less height, enough for Sam to leverage his double-jumping abilities to vault over them and reposition, perhaps in a less compact area with more room to move/dodge. The fight becomes different and it makes Sam's unique abilities stand out more. Do this with a few other enemy/boss attacks, or give them specific weaknesses only Sam could exploit, and bam! More interesting content.

All in all, the Jetstream Sam DLC feels like a far inferior version of the base game. It's okay if you want to play something a little different for an hour or three, want some variety, or want content that pushes you out of your playstyle comfort zone...but I'd have been pretty unhappy spending tenbux on this.

Good for what it is, but again content I'm glad was free. Blade Wolf's chapter is a "stealth" focused DLC, putting the player in the paws of the LQ-84i while he was trained in Virtual Reality and his mission in Abkhazia before meeting with Raiden.

Anyone who played the base game knows that stealth in MGR is pretty barebones. There simply aren't a whole lot of mechanics besides Line of Sight and a very inconsistent noise detection by enemies. No shadows, no complicated patrol routes, no AI doing sweeps of areas, and all sorts of stuff one would expect from a dedicated stealth title. Platinum didn't have a broad palette of mechanics to choose from when making this and it's questionable why they would even bother making stealth-based content for a game in which it was an afterthought. That said, they put in a decent amount of work making it fun.

Enemy placements are pretty well thought out and they tried their best to add in as much as they could, content-side, to support the weak mechanics. Many of the VR missions that wolf takes part in are areas from themain game, but with changed enemy placements and a whole host of gimmicks. Some have locked doors that bar access to routes more suitable to non-detection, and certain enemies are carrying keycodes. Some VR areas have added in light platforming elements what with proximity mines or virtually-added geometry to jump on, either to avoid enemies or get the drop on them from above.

Even outside of the VR they still try their best to keep things interesting, with more and more types of enemies patrolling around in different combinations. Not going to lie...there's something extremely satisfying about stealth-killing a GRAD or two.

But if you found the stealth repugnant in MGR, there's not a whole lot to love in Blade Wolf's DLC. Sure, no encounter mandates stealth (save optional Secret VR missions), but the combat isn't much to write home about. Wolf is extremely limited in the moveset department, boasting of few offensive techniques. He has a light attack string, a heavy attack string, a ->->Light launcher move, and a couple While-Running and While-Airborne attacks. His parry is not as effective as Raiden's and his dodge is slower, has fewer i-frames, and carries a stiffer recovery than Raiden's Offensive Defense. Wolf's dodge, like Sams, also does not attack simultaneously. He has a unique sub-weapon, namely his throwing daggers, but the're non too interesting in combat, mostly useful to detonate mines.

As you can see, Wolf really isn't built for combat. There's only 3-5 encounters in the entire DLC (out of ~15-20) that are mandatory combats. Everything else is designed for stealth. Even the scoring system rewards stealth, with huge bonuses awarded for completing encounters with no Alerts; it's pretty much the easiest way to pull S-Ranks.

Most of Wolf's content isn't new either. All the basic enemies are recycled, as are the areas. Enemies seem, contrary to Sam's content, to be tuned-down relative to the base game (Fenrirs and Mastiffs seem quite docile)...although I could be misremembering the vanilla game.

There is, however, a new boss fight against Khamsin, another Wind of Destruction whose cyborg body is more like a massive mech than anything else. If it were Raiden (or Sam) facing him, the fight would be pitifully easy...he's not really fast or threatening. But Wolf will have a little bit of difficulty with him, especially given how many of his attacks, including his grab, can come out in with varying speed. This is designed to punish untimed dodge-spam, as many of the moves will catch Wolf in his non-invincible frames or during his recovery frames if he dodges too early. It's nice to see content actually designed around the new character.

Also cool about this boss fight is how it incorporates light stealth elements. Khamsin has an attack where he will slam the ground with his axe, raising a bunch of protrusions from the ground. They can be used to shield Wolf from his view, and Khamsin will rotate around, trying to find Wolf. If the player can sneak up on Khamsin undetected, they'll be able to press the Interact input, just like a stealth kill, and hit him for massive damage. Kinda cute, but I like it, as it fits in with the character you're playing.

Khamsin actually has his own music track, and it's not half bad either, provided you enjoyed MGR's soundtrack (I did).

One (non-mechanical) positive is that the DLC features a lot of appearances by Mistral, as she's Wolf's trainer and handler in the Abkhazia mission. KInda wish she would have gotten her own DLC, as the Polearm was probably the most interesting weapon in MGR. And hey, she would have added some much needed diversity to the list of playable characters...nonwhite and a woman. A diversity double-whammy, in the words of Mallory Archer. Totally why I'm on board with more of her...yep...

Wolf's DLC is a fun change of pace. It seems like more effort was made to differentiate it from Raiden's gameplay on both the mechanics and content side. I enjoyed it a lot more than Sam's chapter, but again, I wouldn't have been happy dropping tenbux on it. While it was nice for variety, the stealth systems aren't deep enough for real variety and combat with Wolf against most enemies isn't all that interesting. I doubt I'll be replaying it.
 

Martius

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
1,058
Its kinda messed up on consoles. 360 version had it for free due to some bug but not ps3 one.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,064
The only game released in the last ten years that could genuinely compete for the title of best game ever made is called Dark Souls.
s2ajPfD.jpg
 

Night Goat

The Immovable Autism
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014
I've been playing Revengeance, and I have a couple questions: should I avoid the enemies that can be avoided, or will I get more points if I fight them? And which, if any, of the unique weapons are worth spending my points on?
 
Joined
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I've been playing Revengeance, and I have a couple questions: should I avoid the enemies that can be avoided, or will I get more points if I fight them?

Some encounters that can be stealthily avoided are, in fact, ranked combat encounters, so yeah, there are some serious points being left on the table if you avoid or sneak past some enemies. It's mostly relevant when going for ranks, because highest marks require you to fight every ranked encounter and clear them with an S-Ranking. Though stealth is necessary for some collectibles, namely hostages.

As for Battle Points, used in upgrades, you can get them anywhere, and I mean anywhere. Just cutting things up into little pieces awards Battle Points. Every crate, tree, or fence, can be shredded into 100+ pieces for little hits of BP.

And which, if any, of the unique weapons are worth spending my points on?

The Secondary Weapons or the alternatives to the primary HF-Blade?

Secondary Weapons are all worth the points.

The Polearm changes up Raiden's moveset a lot when equipped, as Heavy Attack inputs typically have a lot of 360-degree coverage around Raiden. It's While-Airborne Heavy move is also pretty great; it's unblockable and really does a number on those Armored Cyborgs with dai-katanas.

The Tactical Sai removes all of Raiden's moves with a Heavy Attack component and replaces them with one move....but that technique's a doozy. Pressing Heavy Attack with the Sai equipped with throw it into an enemy and Raiden will quickly be pulled towards the enemy via magnetic force. Allow the Sai to "charge up", by not using it for a few seconds, and it will turn pink, adding a vicious stun effect to the traversal move. Non-boss enemies will be completely helpless for around four or more seconds; and, yes, some enemies can even be stunlocked to death.

Pincer Blades swap out all of Raiden's Heavy Attack inputs for devastating chargeable moves. Holding down the Heavy Attack input on the ground for a certain time will unleash a mighty blow on any foe unlucky enough to be caught in the way. You're looking at ~25-30% damage shaved off of some boss health bars, especially if you use the 2nd or 3rd attack in the Pincer Blade's ground string (using Offensive Defense to cancel out of the first attack, or it's recovery frames, and quickly go deeper in the string is a highly credited strategy). The aerial charge move isn't terrible either and all of the attacks have a lot of super armor frames; taking damage, in most cases, will not interrupt the animation.

The HF-Blade alternatives are okay if you unlock them. One is straight up better, unlocked after clearing the game. Things like the Machete or Long Sword offer trade-offs between speed and damage. The Wooden Sword is half a challenge weapon and half a way to more easily enable No-Kill runs. And the Armor Breaker is just plain insane against any "hardened" enemy (UGs, and cyborgs more armored than basic ones), having a percentage chance to render any armored area on a foe to glow blue and be sliceable in Blade Mode. Most of these weapons require collectables or completion of challenges though, so you may not have them available.
 

Jick Magger

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
I honestly didn't bother with the heavy weapons, as I found swapping to them via the inventory too clunky. The game's perfectly playable throughout with the HF-Blade alone.
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
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California
I honestly didn't bother with the heavy weapons, as I found swapping to them via the inventory too clunky. The game's perfectly playable throughout with the HF-Blade alone.

THIS. They're novelty items. A man needs only his trusty blade. Also, learn to dodge offset effectively.

Beating Armstrong on VERY HARD was SOOOOOOOO satisfying. I think I had 25 hit points left.
 

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
12,064
They're hardly a novelty if you want to S rank everything on Revengeance.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
The japanese see americans like Pratchett sees dwarves.
Hmm...

"The dwarfish language has a gender neutral pronoun, usually rendered as "he" when speaking human languages. Dwarfish courtship is an incredibly tactful affair, primarily concerned with finding out which gender the other dwarf is"

Sounds like Americans.
Sound like the Codex.
 

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