Is Mass Effect a Star Wars derivative?

[stray]

What do you expect when theymain audience for the games are the same 30 and 40-somethings that refuse to leave Star Wars in their childhood and continue to drag it along as they try (still) try to mature into adults.

That's what's rotten about the explosion of old childhood IPs turned into major adult franchises now like comic book movies, they're there to cater to that group and are subsequently stuck between two worlds instead of remaining products for kids and introducing a new generation to beloved classics.

Even your example falls flat. Whatever youthful spark Lucas had that connected with kids in the late 70s and early 80s was absent where it mattered in the prequels when he began shoving in so much fucking political discourse and serious shit into his "movies for kids".

Lucas matured in his sensibilities and wanted to bring that maturity into his creation despite them being a work for kids. This is why there is a gap between adult and juvenile fiction and it fucking sucks that it's been blurred in the last 15 years.

It's like a 40 year of Linus, ex-Marine with 3 kids who still walks around carrying his blanket trying to convince you it's not what it appears to be. Leave that shit behind and deal with something that is 100% adult.

True enough. I'm only going by an example Mark Hamill made when he was making Return of the Jedi. He was complaining about certain plot points or some actor based "character motivation" or something, and said Lucas told him "Relax. This is for kids."

Perhaps Lucas changed his own mind years later.

That all said, even the prequel politics managed to be more interesting than Mass Effect politics. I mean, at least the story revolved around the politics. Mass Effect ignores the one of the decent things about it's setting and goes for the whole "big bad/Reaper" thing.

 

[commie]

In what way?

In that they're both shit.

 

[Beastro]

Perhaps Lucas changed his own mind years later.

He creatively matured.

There's a differences between maturing and creatively maturing, the latter enable someone to produce products for children that would be impossible for them to make themselves, but eventually everyone gets tired of making toys for kids and wants to deal with something mature, serious and meatier. Lucas' problem is he stuck to Star Wars instead of leaving it behind and starting with a new setting, it limited him and compromised his work. However I may hate James Cameron, he at least keeps himself free and refreshing by not hitching himself to one star dancing from IP to IP: Imagine him if he refused to let the Terminator world go and tried to shoehorn Avatar and it's content into the setting?

That all said, even the prequel politics managed to be more interesting than Mass Effect politics. I mean, at least the story revolved around the politics. Mass Effect ignores the one of the decent things about it's setting and goes for the whole "big bad/Reaper" thing.

It's because it's all ripped from inter-war German political history, with an increasingly unstable republic collapsing and people looking to a strong, charismatic leader, his faction and ideology to save them that proved to be evil incarnate and led that republic and its people to destruction.

It's not new, but worse, it's not a new take beyond making the whole thing into a massive, legitimate conspiracy and I fucking hate twisting history into conspiracies (conspiracies in the definition they've now become, silly ideas about how the world has no randomness in it and it's all the plan of the real string pullers of the world, good or ill... 99.999999% ill). I mean, even the Japanese do that better and they blatantly lift the names from the subjects they deal and make it refreshing at times, like Xenogears' take on Gnostic cosmology.

 

[stray]

He creatively matured.

There's a differences between maturing and creatively maturing, the latter enable someone to produce products for children that would be impossible for them to make themselves, but eventually everyone gets tired of making toys for kids and wants to deal with something mature, serious and meatier. Lucas' problem is he stuck to Star Wars instead of leaving it behind and starting with a new setting, it limited him and compromised his work. However I may hate James Cameron, he at least keeps himself free and refreshing by not hitching himself to one star dancing from IP to IP: Imagine him if he refused to let the Terminator world go and tried to shoehorn Avatar and it's content into the setting?



It's because it's all ripped from inter-war German political history, with an increasingly unstable republic collapsing and people looking to a strong, charismatic leader, his faction and ideology to save them that proved to be evil incarnate and led that republic and its people to destruction.

It's not new, but worse, it's not a new take beyond making the whole thing into a massive, legitimate conspiracy and I fucking hate twisting history into conspiracies (conspiracies in the definition they've now become, silly ideas about how the world has no randomness in it and it's all the plan of the real string pullers of the world, good or ill... 99.999999% ill). I mean, even the Japanese do that better and they blatantly lift the names from the subjects they deal and make it refreshing at times, like Xenogears' take on Gnostic cosmology.

I see the reference, but never thought about it much. I've recently brushed up more on post WW1 actually...

Either way, it's better than Mass Effect. I happily say that: The SW prequels are better than Mass Effect. If only because Bioware has potential for better, but willingly decide to renege on any of it and write fables instead. The same could be said for Dragon Age. The mage/templar thing had some potential.

 

[Beastro]

The mage/templar thing had some potential.

The only potential that had is to subvert our expectations and have the story, and you, support the Templars by rationally presenting shit that makes you realize, yes, these people who are both blessed and curse need to be controlled by an organization as mean as ugly as the Templars, because without that control they keep getting possessed by demons and causing mass havoc and destruction.

But it's not PC to present a rational case for discriminating against a group of people so the games continually churn in cognitive dissonance as the mages do things terrible to create drama-fodder and the writers keep telling us the people trying to rein them in are evil pseudo-Catholics (and Bioware hates Catholicism, seeing all religion through a lens twisted with its aesthetics and overtone. Look at a certain edition of theirs to Star Wars lore in the Old Republic that's as subtle as a jackhammer to the skull) who dare demand they be a part of a organization that teaches magic users discipline and responsibility for the betterment of all instead of being their apparent ideal, Anders.

I know DA catches the most flak for the whole overt sexuality angle to their progressive tripe, but it's their kind of twisted morality with the mages that is what turned me off of their games. In the first they presented the Templars are reactionary idiots for wanting to wipe out the Circle in the game when the only reason why I sided with the mages (Beyond gaming the game to keep Wynn and have the mages fight at the end as well as knowing a game like DA:O would never present the circle as compromised and thus throw you into the intriguingly hard position of justifiably committing mass murder) is that I needed to find out for myself if they were all compromised and that until someone went and found out for certain, siding with the Templars wasn't yet necessary. But of course the Tamplars are collectively presented as wannabe genociders that are just itching to use this event as a chance to wipe them out.

Any sort of rationality in their reaction is presented in spite of what the writers want you to think.

 

[stray]

The only potential that had is to subvert our expectations and have the story, and you, support the Templars by rationally presenting shit that makes you realize, yes, these people who are both blessed and curse need to be controlled by an organization as mean as ugly as the Templars, because without that control they keep getting possessed by demons and causing mass havoc and destruction.

But it's not PC to present a rational case for discriminating against a group of people so the games continually churn in cognitive dissonance as the mages do things terrible to create drama-fodder and the writers keep telling us the people trying to rein them in are evil pseudo-Catholics who dare demand they be a part of a organization that teaches magic users discipline and responsibility for the betterment of all instead of being their apparent ideal, Anders.

I know DA catches flak for the whole sexuality angle to their progressive tripe, but it's kind of twisted morality with the mages that is what turned me off. In the first they presented the Templars are reactionary idiots for wanting to wipe out the Circle in the game when the only reason why I sided with the mages (Beyond gaming the game to keep Wynn and have the mages fight at the end as well as knowing a game like DA:O would never present the circle as compromised and thus throw you into the intriguingly hard position of justifiably committing mass murder) is that I needed to find out for myself if they were all compromised and that until someone went and found out for certain, siding with the Templars wasn't yet necessary. But of course the Tamplars are collectively presented as wannabe genociders that are just itching to use this event as a chance to wipe them out.

Any sort of rationality in their reaction is presented in spite of what the writers want you to think.

I used to sort of like the Templars... because yeah, the mages need discipline. It's not my fault that Bioware wrote magic this way in their setting. Magic is kind of fucked up.

As it is, it seems like any of their DAI endings can deliver this message. I never finished DAI, but I read up on what to expect. If you side with mages, but conscript them.... then even a Divine Leliana isn't all that bad. What happens is the conscripted mages form their own sort of Circle under the Inquisition's auspices called the Bright Hand. They seek to serve as a good example to other mages (I imagine like a mage Hawke or Warden, I guess), while if Cassandra becomes a Seeker, then they become mobilized and able to deal with threats themselves. And this all happens without any Templars around. It's still policing magic, but without the "jailor/prisoner" aspect they kept playing up with the Templars in the Circle.

But whatever. I'm not gonna play it myself. The game itself is boring and the protagonist itself is insulting. It's childish like I said above. I think this annoys me about Bioware more than anything -- it tells me what they think of gamers and their fanbase. That people just want unchallenging gameplay and to be messiahs in the first hour. I hope they're wrong, but maybe they're not. Maybe the majority really are that bad and like this shit.

 

[Beastro]

What happens is the conscripted mages form their own sort of Circle under the Inquisition's auspices called the Bright Hand. They seek to serve as a good example to other mages (I imagine like a mage Hawke or Warden, I guess), while if Cassandra becomes a Seeker, then they become mobilized and able to deal with threats themselves. And this all happens without any Templars around. It's still policing magic, but without the "jailor/prisoner" aspect they kept playing up with the Templars in the Circle.

The problem with those is that neither is effective.

The first works on good intentions and hoping people will follow when we're dealing with demonic possession.

The second with mages policing themselves is it opens demonic possession to creep into the upper echelons and then suddenly that power could be switch from hounding out Abominations to becoming a tool to slowly corrupt all mages underneath them.

The only solution is having a non-magic faction separate and independent of the mages be watchdog and have the power and authority to step in when they feel it necessary, even if it often is an overreaction.

It's still a neat situation and nicely presents being a magic user as a life balanced between great power, still a shitty thing to be saddled with instead of the stereotypical superhero godmode blessing free of consequences and disadvantages it's usually presented as.

 

[stray]

The problem with those is that neither is effective.

The first works on good intentions and hoping people will follow when we're dealing with demonic possession.

The second with mages policing themselves is it opens demonic possession to creep into the upper echelons and then suddenly that power could be switch from hounding out Abominations to becoming a tool to slowly corrupt all mages underneath them.

The only solution is having a non-magic faction separate and independent of the mages be watchdog and have the power and authority to step in when they feel it necessary, even if it often is an overreaction.

It's still a neat situation and nicely presents being a magic user as a life balanced between great power, still a shitty thing to be saddled with instead of the stereotypical superhero godmode blessing free of consequences and disadvantages it's usually presented as.

That independent faction would be the Seekers. The big compromise there is that they immerse themselves in spirit/fade based stuff to get these powers. As long as you get past that, then I think they'd be better than Templars. They're mobile and aren't lyrium addicts... and possibly won't develop the jailer mentality that screwed up a lot of the Templars in their story. And they'd probably grow in ranks sooner or later.

Basically they'd just be demon hunter types you see in other fantasy settings.

 

[jaybirdy]

Just because it has a bit of space magic and fantasy crap, it doesn't make it Star Wars. It has none of the drama, camaraderie, and humor that made SW such a classic.

It's not Star Trek either just because it has a bit of space science. It lacks the grand ideas and heady plots that had inspired so many to become engineers and scientists.

It's pretty much a modern Hollywood science fiction movie. With all the military fetishism and male posturing, it could've easily been conceived by Michael Bay and his ilk.

 

[stray]

Just because it has a bit of space magic and fantasy crap, it doesn't make it Star Wars. It has none of the drama, camaraderie, and humor that made SW such a classic.

It's not Star Trek either just because it has a bit of space science. It lacks the grand ideas and heady plots that had inspired so many to become engineers and scientists.

It's pretty much a modern Hollywood science fiction movie. With all the military fetishism and male posturing, it could've easily been conceived by Michael Bay and his ilk.

I think ME3 has that Bay vibe. ME2 had promise... it was like Die Hard in space. Or something. Cocky 80s action stuff. First one should have just skipped the main plot to begin with though, and become about Spectres and politics. edit: Err, to clarify.. when I say Die Hard, I don't mean the plot. Just that had some balls to it, compared to Michael Bay.

 

[Frozen]

In what way?

Its derivative of Kotor in the way game is structured and character archetypes are set. Typical Bioware formula.
Lore, setting, characters, feel has nothing in common with star wars.
Its more of a retro 70s,80s soap SF and B movie homage (only cheaper).
It rips off from left and right only done poorly because of intellectual restriction of above said formula.
Closest things to me is Starcrash only not so funny.