Is Mass Effect a Star Wars derivative?

[Lhynn]

Mass Effect is a Star Wars derivative, by the way.

In what way?

 

[Fairfax]

In what way?

One could argue that the setting has enough differences, but it's still very much based on KotOR in almost every aspect. The universe was also inspired by Star Wars, admittedly so.

 

[Lhynn]

One could argue that the setting has enough differences, but it's still very much based on KotOR in almost every aspect. The universe was also inspired by Star Wars, admittedly so.

How? i simply cannot see any parallel between the two, at all.

 

[Ninjerk]

admitted by who?

 

[Fairfax]

Uh..by BioWare devs? Ever since the game was first shown in the X05/06 and E3 06 they said they were building on what they'd created with KotOR but wanted their own universe. Not that ME is derivative per se, my point was that he said Alpha Protocol was based on Mass Effect, but then Mass Effect was based on a previous game (KotOR) as well.

 

[Lhynn]

Uh..by BioWare devs? Ever since the game was first shown in the X05/06 and E3 06 they said they were building on what they'd created with KotOR but wanted their own universe. Not that ME is derivative per se, my point was that he said Alpha Protocol was based on Mass Effect, but then Mass Effect was based on a previous game (KotOR) as well.

Maybe that was the initial idea, but other than the paragon/renegade crap i just dont see it.
AP takes a lot out of the dialogue from bioware, especially the basic mechanics, but also the storytelling style, like the 3 big missions you can do in any order (tho mass effect allowed you to skip all of them i think, or at least 2). You can see how a lot of ideas from ME went to AP, where they were improved upon for the most part.

 

[Excidium II]

Maybe that was the initial idea, but other than the paragon/renegade crap i just dont see it.

Force powers, hot blue aliens. Shrug

 

[Fairfax]

Maybe that was the initial idea, but other than the paragon/renegade crap i just dont see it.
AP takes a lot out of the dialogue from bioware, especially the basic mechanics, but also the storytelling style, like the 3 big missions you can do in any order (tho mass effect allowed you to skip all of them i think, or at least 2). You can see how a lot of ideas from ME went to AP, where they were improved upon for the most part.

ME1 structure is pretty much the same as well. Shamus explained it better than I could:

The other thing I find interesting about the location structure of Mass Effect is how similar it is to Knights of the Old Republic. You have a brief section aboard the (Endar Spire / Normandy) followed by the tutorial area. (Taris / Eden Prime.) Then you go to the area of MASSIVE WORLDBUILDING AND EXPOSITION DUMP (Dantooine / Citadel) where you become a (Jedi / Spectre). Then you’re finally free to move around in your own ship and choose to do three mandatory locations in any order. Once those are done, you have the stakes-raising chokepoint mission on (Leviathan / Virmire). Then you go to the hidden mystery world of (Rakata / Iilos) where the BIG SECRETS ARE REVEALED, which leads to the final battle on the (Star Forge / Citadel).

It’s not an exact matchup. Taris was massive compared to Eden Prime, and KOTOR has an extra location to visit between the chokepoint and the endgame, but the similarities are still really blatant. (Jade Empire also has a similar structure, but it doesn’t map quite as neatly as the other two.)

 

[Lhynn]

ME1 structure is pretty much the same as well. Shamus explained it better than I could:

Thats just standard bioware storytelling, theres even a table somewhere that someone will undoubtedly post again.
What im asking is in what way was ME inspired by star wars, when the opposite is what seems to be true. ME was inspired by the sci fi serials of the 90s like the star treks, babilon 5, and even on the original star trek etc. You can see this in the aesthetics that permeate the game, even on who the game focus on, you are the captain of your own ship, you are exploring the universe, theres something that threatens the entire galaxy, etc. It takes elements from all these shows and adds its own more modern take on them, it even has a sci fi approach to it (albeit with weaksauce science), while star wars is pure fantasy.

Force powers, hot blue aliens. Shrug

The force is not comparable in any way with biotics tho, not even a practical one. Also the force is more of a philosophy. biotics on the other hand is more of a mutation enhanced by technological implants and even medicine.

As for hot blue aliens, i think this is more what they were going for.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

I don't think you can draw a bright line between 90's sci-fi serials and Star Wars.

Babylon 5 is essentially fantasy, perhaps to an even greater degree than Star Wars. Star Wars at least refrained from making it's central conflict one between space angels and space demons. Star Trek TOS veered wildly in tone from one episode to another, meaning that there were quite a few episodes that were as much space fantasy as Star Wars. How many sword fights should a space captain plausibly have?

The differences between the pseudo-scientific justification for powers granted by whatever it is biotics claim to do and midiclorians are pretty superficial. Either way, it's techno-babble offering some kind of explanation for mind powers.

ETA:typos

 

[Lhynn]

I don't think you can draw a bright line between 90's sci-fi serials and Star Wars

Babylon 5 is essentially fantasy

I dont think that word means what you think it means.

Star Wars at least refrained from making it's central conflict one between space angels and space demons.

Not really, the central conflict of star wars is that of good vs evil, what shapes they take is irrelevant. Now while i didnt really watch much of babilon 5, what i did see showed none of that bullcrap you are making up, tho there is a possibility it was there, it certainly wasnt the central theme of the story. As it went for a more grounded approach, visiting themes like religion, and social, political and racial problems.

Star Trek TOS veered wildly in tone from one episode to another, meaning that there were quite a few episodes that were as much space fantasy as Star Wars. How many sword fights should a space captain plausible have?

Again, you dont seem to understand what fantasy implies and what sci fi implies. But basically if theres an attempt of explaining shit in any scientific way, its sci fi. How plausible or grounded that explanation is doesnt matter, it only has weight on how good it as a representative of the genre.

The differences between the pseudoscientific justification for powers granted by whatever it is biotics claim to do and midiclorians are pretty superficial. Either way, it's techno-babble offering some kind of explanation for mind powers.

Sure, but its those differences that change the entire genre. One tries really hard to justify all the stuff thats happening, the other is a made up line in a movie that was made like 20 after it would have been of any relevance.

How are you fucks even arguing this shit? its right fucking there, maybe if it was Athelas playing devils advocate, but you are outright being wrong on purpose for no fucking reason.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

I dont think that word means what you think it means.

Not really, the central conflict of star wars is that of good vs evil, what shapes they take is irrelevant. Now while i didnt really watch much of babilon 5, what i did see showed none of that bullcrap you are making up, tho there is a possibility it was there, it certainly wasnt the central theme of the story. As it went for a more grounded approach, visiting themes like religion, and social, political and racial problems.

The first phase of Babylon 5's manichean conflict was when it was when it appeared that the fate of the universe was to be decided by a great war between order (the vorlons) and chaos (the shadows). IIRC there was an episode where the spokespeople of those factions actually said they represented order and chaos. This turned out to be a head fake and the conflict was replaced by moderation vs. extremism. However, it was still a conflict between two ideologies, one of which was presented as good and the other as bad. Also, characters like Lorien, that soul collector guy and the technomages are figures that would be right at home in a fantasy novel about a chosen one leading the forces of light to victory.

Whether the approach was grounded or not is irrelevant - both sci-fi and fantasy can address these issues with varying degrees of groundedness.

Again, you dont seem to understand what fantasy implies and what sci fi implies. But basically if theres an attempt of explaining shit in any scientific way, its sci fi. How plausible or grounded that explanation is doesnt matter, it only has weight on how good it as a representative of the genre.

Sure, but its those differences that change the entire genre. One tries really hard to justify all the stuff thats happening, the other is a made up line in a movie that was made like 20 after it would have been of any relevance.

How are you fucks even arguing this shit? its right fucking there, maybe if it was Athelas playing devils advocate, but you are outright being wrong on purpose for no fucking reason.

I think it's kind of silly to say that anyone fails to understand what these words imply or do not imply. The two genres are not monoliths separated by a bright line; they are constellations of related themes, narratives and ideas separated by porous boundaries. Hence the tendency for both sci-fi and fanatasy to spawn relatively large numbers of subgenres within themselves, like slipstream, weird fiction, sword and sorcery etc. This porousness extends to the divisions between sci-fi and fantasy themselves, hence the the need for terms like science fantasy and planetary romance to describe the various syncretisms.

Of course, to be fair, I'm guilty of the same thing for saying Babylon five was fantasy, rather than saying it contained a significant number of fantasy tropes.

Or maybe I'm just being wrong on purpose to watch people throw fits on the internet.[/QUOTE]

 

[Lhynn]

Or maybe I'm just being wrong on purpose to watch people throw fits on the internet.

 

[Beastro]

Babylon 5 is essentially fantasy

Sci-Fi and Fantasy were essentially one genre a century ago. Since then they're only slightly moved apart, but in the minds of most it's thought that they're different and mutually exclusive because of the stereotypical content each are suppose to contain expectation wise.

 

[Ninjerk]

i swear to god mods are complete s, first megathread every goddamned thing now split it all off

 

[MRY]

Years ago, I began undertaking a game that turned out to be preempted by FTL, and as background to it, tried to read at least one book in every English language space opera series, as well as watch at least part of every space opera TV series, and every space opera movie; I also read a fair portion of space opera comics and P&P RPGs, and played probably something like 60% of space opera games. Where I didn't read/watch/play, I used Wikipedia, Moby Games, and TV Tropes to learn what I could. The theory was, I would (1) determine key, recurrent concepts that form essentially the cultural framework of space opera; and (2) steal any unique ideas that I could work into my setting.

About 2/3 of the way through this undertaking (which proved to be an awful waste of time, given that FTL and its imitators saturated the genre while I was still in the research phase), I played Mass Effect. It's pretty clear to me that Mass Effect's narrative designers undertook the same effort I did. While the game's structure may be similar to KOTOR, its lore is taken from dozens of sources -- Star Flight and Star Command, Babylon 5 and Star Trek, Saberhagen's Berserk series, the various space doctor series (e.g., Stardoc), Niven's Known Space and Brinn's Uplift series, Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama, even hints of Hamilton's Interstellar Patrol, etc., etc. I'm not sure that they went as far down the rabbit hole as I did -- or how much of their research was secondary or tertiary rather than primary -- but I am extremely confident that they read broadly before laying down their setting. Incidentally, I would submit that this is one reason why the setting is simultaneously hated on as being cliche and beloved by millions of fans: its familiarity is the product of careful study to find what would make players feel like they taking part in their favorite space operas.

I'll tell you, it was a pretty crushing one-two punch to play ME and then FTL and realize that basically the content and form of my idea were both already chewed up by someone else.

--EDIT--

BTW, given the reasonable "pics or it didn't happen" skepticism that people have, I'm happy to give the mockup designs to someone to post. They even have the pandering captain name / ship name from when I was pitching this to my erstwhile employers S2 Games.

 

[Aoyagi]

It's a "space opera" with space magic and space people. That's a rather broad concept, it doesn't have SW's silly formalities, signature weapons, or black&white world.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

ME1 structure is pretty much the same as well. Shamus explained it better than I could:

All BioWare games from KOTOR follow the same procedure more or less.

(Brief unskippable tutorial area (optional, for DA:O and KOTOR) > long unskippable tutorial area > info dump and you become a member of a cool organization/you become aware you are the chosen one > world opens up > go to these initial places (usually four) and find a thing from each > game eventually ends after fighting a boss fight you don't give a fuck about

I'd say Mass Effect was more inspired by Star Trek however. There's space magic/force powers in the form of bionics but other than that there's really not a lot of space fantasy elements to the game, IMO. It's very focused on being "real" and gritty as opposed to the "fairy tale style" of something like Star Wars.

 

[Fairfax]

Huh, didn't even know this thread was created (actually split). I didn't want to start this debate at all, it was more of a response to Morality Games saying Alpha Protocol derivative, which I consider a fair comparison only if you're talking about gameplay and some aspects of game design, otherwise they are nothing alike. In that regard, I tried to point out that Mass Effect was a KotOR derivative, but it was poorly worded and I said Star Wars instead.
Out of context - my original post and the post I quoted are absent here - it doesn't do the debate any good and looks like a random, poorly thought out comment about the Mass Effect universe in general, but it was very specific.

I still think Mass Effect is closer to the Star Wars feel than anything else in the space opera genre, even if the game does have a Star Trek approach/tone in some portions, along with many other influences from books, film, TV and gaming along the way. When I think of space opera, the main "styles" are the Foundation series, Star Wars, Flash Gordon, Ender's Game and maybe the Vorkosian saga. They're all very different, but still emphasize the same things with different themes and more or less science.
Then again, a game like Mass Effect has tons of influences and many different aspects of its own. The soundtrack has a style, the art has other influences, gameplay is basically expanded upon BioWare's own foundations, the story is different, etc.

If you want to go back enough, all works I've mentioned here were influenced by Jules Verne in one way or another, and I never meant derivative in a derogatory way, I just didn't think it was fair to dismiss Alpha Protocol as a "Mass Effect derivative" when Mass Effect barely had anything original of its own (and that's fine).
And to be clear, I liked ME1 and Alpha Protocol. BioWare had already established itself as far away from BG2 as possible, and you already knew what you were getting, but they had their heart in the right place and I thought it could've led to a fantastic sequel at some point if they improved the gameplay and had a bigger budget. Turns out they did get a bigger budget, but everything besides the soundtrack went to shit, and the tones, themes and approach became completely different along the way.

All BioWare games from KOTOR follow the same procedure more or less.

(Brief unskippable tutorial area (optional, for DA:O and KOTOR) > long unskippable tutorial area > info dump and you become a member of a cool organization/you become aware you are the chosen one > world opens up > go to these initial places (usually four) and find a thing from each > game eventually ends after fighting a boss fight you don't give a fuck about

I'd say Mass Effect was more inspired by Star Trek however. There's space magic/force powers in the form of bionics but other than that there's really not a lot of space fantasy elements to the game, IMO. It's very focused on being "real" and gritty as opposed to the "fairy tale style" of something like Star Wars.

It does have Star Trek elements, specially in the mid-game missions, Shepard himself and some of the crew, but it doesn't have nearly as much "real" science and toned down fantasy elements.
Biotics aren't just a minor element, they're a big, constant part of the game and the setting. Also, one might as well call the mass effect fields that give name to the series (and make it a space opera in the first place) simply magic and the element zero "aether".

 

[MRY]

When I think of space opera, the main "styles" are the Foundation series, Star Wars, Flash Gordon, Ender's Game and maybe the Vorkosian saga. They're all very different, but still emphasize the same things with different themes and more or less science.

This is underinclusive. You're missing the paradigm that is most relevant here -- the main one that has worked its way into gaming -- which is the Known Space/Uplift model*: lots of eccentric, sentient alien species, each with its own territory, in large alliances waging interstellar wars. This is basically what gamers know -- it's Starflight, Star Control, MOO, Warhammer 40k, to some degree Starcraft and Halo and Homeworld and Freespace -- and it is the foundation (yuk yuk) of Babylon 5, which is another major inspiration to contemporary space opera. (I loved B5 as a teen, but found it unwatchable by the time I was in my 20s. There's a good article about its shortcomings on the blog Asking the Wrong Questions.) Some other examples of this would be Zahn's Conqueror's Pride series, Scalzi's Old Man universe, Foster's Humanx series, Ringo's Aldenata series (though he takes a very different approach). I'm sure I could come up with more looking at my list.

What all of these series share -- and what Star Wars, particularly the original triology but really the whole thing, lacks -- is having a large number of competitor alien powers (usually a different tiers). They often feature a kind of alien UN, and also often also involve old enemies having to ally to face a greater threat. Themes like uplifting undeveloped aliens often show up over and again. I would situate Star Trek within this genre except that Star Trek doesn't like war (DS9 notwithstanding), doesn't really have economy (which is always important), or meaningful power-level differences among the core players (again, this is why the show feels so much more like space opera when, say, the Borg show up). Some of the Star Wars EU draws from these themes, but that's not Star Wars leading the way, it's Star Wars following. While these stories have a smattering a science in them, they're mostly about romantic, somewhat fantastical Great-Game style diplomacy and World War-style space battles. (The original Star Wars is totally uninterested in that kind of politicking, though it shows up to some degree in the prequels.)

Biotics aren't just a minor element, they're a big, constant part of the game and the setting.

While I could see them starting mechanically from how they used the force in KOTOR (which, bear in mind, is not really that similar to how the force works in the original Star Wars trilogy), biotics draw as much, if not more, from the monstrous-telepath tradition of space opera. They take imagery and whole plots from the Psi Corps in Babylon 5, which in turn has roots in some Alfred Bester books (which B5 name checks by having the evil telepath named Alfred Bester), in particularly Demolished Man. There are a bunch of other sources for this (Perry Rhodan jumps to mind), but I'd have to consult my notes. Maybe Sector General (which clearly helped inspire B5). IIRC, there was a telepathic organization in it.

I'm telling you: ME may have a bunch of flaws, but I don't think that overreliance on Star Wars is one of othem. (Overreliance on KOTOR for structural things might be a fairer charge, but everyone agrees that KOTOR isn't really Star Wars so much as a different kind of story with Star Wars wrapping on it.)

---

Incidentally, though I fully recognize that this conversation is an absurd use of time, it is at least giving some purpose to the 30,000 pages of space opera I inflicted on myself. Humanx. Need I say more.

 

[Fairfax]

This is underinclusive. You're missing the paradigm that is most relevant here -- the main one that has worked its way into gaming -- which is the Known Space/Uplift model*: lots of eccentric, sentient alien species, each with its own territory, in large alliances waging interstellar wars. This is basically what gamers know -- it's Starflight, Star Control, MOO, Warhammer 40k, to some degree Starcraft and Halo and Homeworld and Freespace -- and it is the foundation (yuk yuk) of Babylon 5, which is another major inspiration to contemporary space opera. (I loved B5 as a teen, but found it unwatchable by the time I was in my 20s. There's a good article about its shortcomings on the blog Asking the Wrong Questions.) Some other examples of this would be Zahn's Conqueror's Pride series, Scalzi's Old Man universe, Foster's Humanx series, Ringo's Aldenata series (though he takes a very different approach). I'm sure I could come up with more looking at my list.

What all of these series share -- and what Star Wars, particularly the original triology but really the whole thing, lacks -- is having a large number of competitor alien powers (usually a different tiers). They often feature a kind of alien UN, and also often also involve old enemies having to ally to face a greater threat. Themes like uplifting undeveloped aliens often show up over and again. I would situate Star Trek within this genre except that Star Trek doesn't like war (DS9 notwithstanding), doesn't really have economy (which is always important), or meaningful power-level differences among the core players (again, this is why the show feels so much more like space opera when, say, the Borg show up). Some of the Star Wars EU draws from these themes, but that's not Star Wars leading the way, it's Star Wars following. While these stories have a smattering a science in them, they're mostly about romantic, somewhat fantastical Great-Game style diplomacy and World War-style space battles. (The original Star Wars is totally uninterested in that kind of politicking, though it shows up to some degree in the prequels.)

You have a fair point about Known Space and Uplift, but I'm not really sure I'd call them space operas. Known Space has a strong focus on the impacts of techs on society, which is a fairly realistic and more serious worldbuilding effort (even if some of the techs are not). That's very unusual for space opera settings, and more common in cyberpunk. Star Wars never had any actual worldbuilding until the first tabletop RPG, when the people involved actually gave a fuck about it and the EU was born.

As for Mass Effect, it does have several of such themes, but not in regards to the most important technologies and inventions in its universe: mass effect fields, element zero and biotics. People embed element zero in body tissue and then get an implant so they can channel all that magic element zero into actual powers. Sounds familiar? And we don't really see the consequences of having that kind of thing in all these societies.

What's the law on the use of biotics? What are the outlawed powers, none? Where and when can you use a specific strong power? What are the side-effects? How does law enforcement prevent the abuse of such powers? What about illegal implant markets and harvesting?
Then the mass effect relays. How come nobody has tried to seize them? Who controls and regulates their use? Do people make money on it? Who or what protects them? They're not indestructible, as ME3 has shown. Has anyoned tried to rig or hack them? Conflicts seem to take place fairly close to the relays, why isn't anyone concerned? If a relay is destroyed is not like they can make a new one.

That's the kind of thing that would never be absent in hard sci-fi, regular sci-fi or whatever one likes to call non-space-opera works in space. It's also the perspective we'd see in Star Trek, Known Space, and so on. Without any of it, the relays are just magical and element zero is some kind of aether that gives you access to the Force. Some of the questions above did have explanations and answers in the codex, but unlike the works I mentioned, we never really see any of it. The ME1 world looks exactly as it would without the Force-like powers and everything that surrounds them.
We see more of than in the sequels, but I was talking about the first game when the discussion started, in which it was clear that they liked Force powers, wanted to have them in their universe, but the actual lore to back it up became something to be explored later on.

[Also, the politicking was more present in earlier drafts of Star Wars, but yes, it does show up later on, in addition to more science-like elements such as midi-chlorians. Shows how space opera works can have more realistic elements added/removed at some point]

While I could see them starting mechanically from how they used the force in KOTOR (which, bear in mind, is not really that similar to how the force works in the original Star Wars trilogy), biotics draw as much, if not more, from the monstrous-telepath tradition of space opera. They take imagery and whole plots from the Psi Corps in Babylon 5, which in turn has roots in some Alfred Bester books (which B5 name checks by having the evil telepath named Alfred Bester), in particularly Demolished Man. There are a bunch of other sources for this (Perry Rhodan jumps to mind), but I'd have to consult my notes. Maybe Sector General (which clearly helped inspire B5). IIRC, there was a telepathic organization in it.

I'm telling you: ME may have a bunch of flaws, but I don't think that overreliance on Star Wars is one of othem. (Overreliance on KOTOR for structural things might be a fairer charge, but everyone agrees that KOTOR isn't really Star Wars so much as a different kind of story with Star Wars wrapping on it.)

---

Incidentally, though I fully recognize that this conversation is an absurd use of time, it is at least giving some purpose to the 30,000 pages of space opera I inflicted on myself. Humanx. Need I say more.

Again, I didn't mean derivative in a derogatory way. Flaws above aside, I loved the world depicted in Mass Effect 1 (didn't love the game, but that's another story). Still, I agree. Over-reliance on Star Wars was not one of the game's flaws, but whenever they did rely on Star Wars/KotOR, it feels forced and unnecessary, like biotics and the extremely stupid paragon/renegade system.

 

[Somberlain]

I'll tell you, it was a pretty crushing one-two punch to play ME and then FTL and realize that basically the content and form of my idea were both already chewed up by someone else.

Is your last name Henkel, by any chance?

 

[MRY]

Biotics. People embed element zero in body tissue and then get an implant so they can channel all that magic element zero into actual powers. Sounds familiar?

Yes, but not in the way you're suggesting: none of that sounds like the force at all. It sounds a little bit like the retconned force of the Star Wars prequel, but only a little. It is much more like psionics in classic space opera / pulpy science fiction, particularly in Babylon 5, maybe bits of Slan and Lensman, and a fair portion of anime like Akira thrown in (Akira, with its "espers," owes a lot to classic western scifi).

And we don't really see the consequences of having that kind of thing in all these societies. . . . That's the kind of thing that would never be absent in hard sci-fi, regular sci-fi or whatever one likes to call non-space-opera works in space.

First, I seem to vaguely recall that there actually was quite a bit in Mass Effect about how the telepaths were oppressed and manipulated and so on. Like you went to some moon base, and also there was the whole Jack plot, and so on.

Second, I think you're making a (significant) logical error here. Though I haven't played the last Mass Effect game, in the first two, the "mass effect" is really not especially important to the plot. It's a classic, "Ancient space evil returns, turning fight against lesser space evil into a meaningless squabble. Wildly different aliens must set aside bickering or face annihilation." The mass effect stuff is totally secondary to this, while the diverse alien factions are utterly central. While you might be right that Known Space is (somewhat) more rigorous (it's hard for me to stand up and saluate the originator of catman aliens*), Uplift isn't, and in any event the (sub)genre they spawned isn't rigorous at all: Starflight, Star Control, MOO, Babylon 5, Old Man's War, etc. are all about rolicking fun and not really about scientific rigor. (That's why I didn't include either the Culture series or Vinge's stuff, even though it bears superficial similarities: those feel much more about hard scifi to me, even though it takes place against an alien zoo and space war backdrop.) Mass Effect fits squarely in the middle of this genre.

(* You have no idea the suffering that it caused me to read this book on public transportation.)

The points of connection with Star Wars are much more tenuous. The mass effect powers aren't tied to Jedi, the Sentinels (was that what they were called?) aren't really like the Jedi (they're a bit more like Lensmen, if anything), the villain is not an evil human empire but an impersonal alien force, aliens are primarily important as exemplars of alien factions rather than as once-off monsters, etc. You really have to push hard to fit it into Star Wars, while it takes only a tiny nudge to get to B5.

Then the mass effect relays. How come nobody has tried to seize them? Who controls and regulates their use? Do people make money on it? Who or what protects them? They're not indestructible, as ME3 has shown. Has anyoned tried to rig or hack them? Conflicts seem to take place fairly close to the relays, why isn't anyone concerned? If a relay is destroyed is not like they can make a new one.

Incidentally, these are taken straight from Babylon 5 (traceable perhaps to Gateway), and everything you say about them is exactly the same in B5. Also, IIRC, there actually was a fair amount of lore about the role they played, which tied into one of the better twists in the series.

It's also the perspective we'd see in Star Trek, Known Space, and so on.

Not really, Star Trek has plenty of technobabble (so does Mass Effect), but it doesn't really rigorously examine its magic technologies at all -- what can a holodeck do and not do, what can a replicator make and not make, why does going faster than Warp 10 take you back in time but then in later episodes it doesn't, why are lips synched on the viewscreen when the universal translator is running and why does the translator replicate accents, why in a world of universal translators do aliens learn to speak English at all, why are transporters so seldom used in combat (e.g., to transport mines directly in front of an enemy ship), why is accelerating asteroids to warp speed and flying the into planets not a traditional military strategy, etc., etc.

Known Space has a lot of shenanigans too, but I'd have to wrack my mind to bring them all up. I seem to recall quite a bit of foolishness in the Man-Kzin War offshoots.

The ME1 world looks exactly as it would without the Force-like powers and everything that surrounds them.

This is exactly true of every space opera featuring psionics, too. Even the ones that try to grapple with it a little basically assume an identical society, even though telepathy would change everything.

Somberlain

Is your last name Henkel, by any chance?

No, but in his horrible hairline I see my own grim future.

--EDIT--

BTW, I'm sure I'm coming across as more impassioned/self-righteous than I mean to -- it really just is that I never thought I'd be able to call upon this encyclopedic knowledge for any purpose, so seeing a chance, I feel obliged to seize it. It's not like there's something wrong with comparing ME to Star Wars, and all of your criticisms of the game are reasonable.

 

[Fairfax]

Yes, but not in the way you're suggesting: none of that sounds like the force at all. It sounds a little bit like the retconned force of the Star Wars prequel, but only a little. It is much more like psionics in classic space opera / pulpy science fiction, particularly in Babylon 5, maybe bits of Slan and Lensman, and a fair portion of anime like Akira thrown in (Akira, with its "espers," owes a lot to classic western scifi).

The system is not the same as Star Wars, which is why I didn't say it was, but it's completely derivative and purely magical. It is much like magic in Pillars of Eternity. They wanted it to be there as a mechanic, but they didn't bother to consider the effects of having it in their setting, even though it's too much of a big deal to be ignored like that.

As for Babylon 5, I've never watched it, so I can't say much in regards to your comparisons there.

Yes, but not in the way you're suggesting: none of that sounds like the force at all. It sounds a little bit like the retconned force of the Star Wars prequel, but only a little. It is much more like psionics in classic space opera / pulpy science fiction, particularly in Babylon 5, maybe bits of Slan and Lensman, and a fair portion of anime like Akira thrown in (Akira, with its "espers," owes a lot to classic western scifi).


First, I seem to vaguely recall that there actually was quite a bit in Mass Effect about how the telepaths were oppressed and manipulated and so on. Like you went to some moon base, and also there was the whole Jack plot, and so on.

Second, I think you're making a (significant) logical error here. Though I haven't played the last Mass Effect game, in the first two, the "mass effect" is really not especially important to the plot. It's a classic, "Ancient space evil returns, turning fight against lesser space evil into a meaningless squabble. Wildly different aliens must set aside bickering or face annihilation." The mass effect stuff is totally secondary to this, while the diverse alien factions are utterly central. While you might be right that Known Space is (somewhat) more rigorous (it's hard for me to stand up and saluate the originator of catman aliens*), Uplift isn't, and in any event the (sub)genre they spawned isn't rigorous at all: Starflight, Star Control, MOO, Babylon 5, Old Man's War, etc. are all about rolicking fun and not really about scientific rigor. (That's why I didn't include either the Culture series or Vinge's stuff, even though it bears superficial similarities: those feel much more about hard scifi to me, even though it takes place against an alien zoo and space war backdrop.) Mass Effect fits squarely in the middle of this genre.

(* You have no idea the suffering that it caused me to read this book on public transportation.)

The points of connection with Star Wars are much more tenuous. The mass effect powers aren't tied to Jedi, the Sentinels (was that what they were called?) aren't really like the Jedi (they're a bit more like Lensmen, if anything), the villain is not an evil human empire but an impersonal alien force, aliens are primarily important as exemplars of alien factions rather than as once-off monsters, etc. You really have to push hard to fit it into Star Wars, while it takes only a tiny nudge to get to B5.

As I said, it is something they address later on, but I'm talking about the first game because the other two are way too different in everything except the soundtrack - actually, scratch that, the third game has a different style there as well - and it's the only one I liked. It was also a considerable omission for their first game regardless, much like the lack of females in some races.

The mass effect was not important to the plot, you're right, but it is extremely important in the ME universe. Without it, there's no It's what drives the economy, military and even the culture in basically every society in the universe, yet they just sit there, protected by the jesus kid's divine providence without further explanation on anything related to them. Even Stargate does a much better job at that. Same for Known Space, which I didn't really want to praise - I mean it more like "even Known Space addresses this kind of thing".

There is no point of connection with Star Wars and the relays, but the way they approach it is basically the same. They just exist and drive the plot.

Incidentally, these are taken straight from Babylon 5 (traceable perhaps to Gateway), and everything you say about them is exactly the same in B5. Also, IIRC, there actually was a fair amount of lore about the role they played, which tied into one of the better twists in the series.

Again, can't say anything about Babylon 5.

Not really, Star Trek has plenty of technobabble (so does Mass Effect), but it doesn't really rigorously examine its magic technologies at all -- what can a holodeck do and not do, what can a replicator make and not make, why does going faster than Warp 10 take you back in time but then in later episodes it doesn't, why are lips synched on the viewscreen when the universal translator is running and why does the translator replicate accents, why in a world of universal translators do aliens learn to speak English at all, why are transporters so seldom used in combat (e.g., to transport mines directly in front of an enemy ship), why is accelerating asteroids to warp speed and flying the into planets not a traditional military strategy, etc., etc.

Known Space has a lot of shenanigans too, but I'd have to wrack my mind to bring them all up. I seem to recall quite a bit of foolishness in the Man-Kzin War offshoots.

But the holodeck is not as vital to the Star Trek universe and story as the mass effect field is. You could still have Star Trek without a holodeck or even the transporters (which you're completely right to criticize), but you can't have Mass Effect without the mass effect fields. The relays and biotics as concepts and tools in that universe should be a pretty big deal, and biotics does get more attention and quests later on, but everyone remains oblivious to the relays.

They're not vital to the plot, but the whole thing crumbles without mass effect fields and element zero, yet they're essentially magic. In a structural sense, it is very similar to Star Wars and its reliance on the Force (at least OT-wise).

This is exactly true of every space opera featuring psionics, too. Even the ones that try to grapple with it a little basically assume an identical society, even though telepathy would change everything.

Correct. That is a problem with psionics as a concept in a hard sci-fi/realistic perspective. It's too supernatural in nature and requires the creator(s) to build the world from the ground up with the consequences of having that in mind. It didn't have to exist in the Mass Effect universe, should change everything, and doesn't.

BTW, I'm sure I'm coming across as more impassioned/self-righteous than I mean to -- it really just is that I never thought I'd be able to call upon this encyclopedic knowledge for any purpose, so seeing a chance, I feel obliged to seize it. It's not like there's something wrong with comparing ME to Star Wars, and all of your criticisms of the game are reasonable.

No problem. I just googled and found that your studio made Primordia, which was a really cool take on the genre (sci-fi and point-and-click both). It's nice to see you put so much effort in the research, looking forward to Technobabylon.

 

[MRY]

Off topic: Technobabylon is made by totally different people, and is quite different from Primordia. (Primordia, in my opinion, is very soft sci-fi, it's probably more allegory or fantasy; Technobabylon is more classical scifi/cyberpunk. Reminds me a little of Van Vogt's work.) But thanks for the nice words about Primordia.

On topic: I agree that Mass Effect relies upon unexplained magical devices wrapped up in technobabble, but I think that's a staple of space opera that goes far beyond Star Wars, so using that as a basis to say that it's Star Wars inspired seems off to me. Many other space operas have techno-magic at their core (Star Trek, Dune, Babylon 5); in fact, probably all of them do, it's just a question whether it is buried really deeply (as in, say, Rendezvous with Rama) or worn openly and proudly (as in, say, Warhammer).