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Is AI the future of Indie RPGs?

Nathaniel3W

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Anyone following the news about that one guy whose game got rejected from Steam for using AI-generated assets?

https://www.reddit.com/r/aigamedev/comments/142j3yt/valve_is_not_willing_to_publish_games_with_ai/

I don't know the details. The guy didn't include the name of his game or any screenshots. No official response from Valve. Maybe the guy was just really sloppy and was using obvious copies of trademarked characters, or minimal changes using img2img on obviously copyrighted images. I haven't heard of Valve going on a witch-hunt yet. Anyone else hear anything?
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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AI Roguelite is still for sale.

IDK, my guess is the guy put absolute garbage generations in as "Art" and this is how Steam is trying to avoid AI shovelware.

You'd be surprised at the number of people that still think people will pay for a product where the art has women with mutated hands in it.


If you don't have attention to detail or a desire to make a professional product, you don't belong anywhere near art AIs right now.


If it turns out to be real, it may be part of companies like Adobe's push to create their own custom models on their stockphoto databases that they own the copyrights to.
 
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Non-Edgy Gamer

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Ah, here's something:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/valve-banning-games-using-ai-art
For the game to pass Valve's inspection, the developer must "own the rights to all of the IP used in the data set that trained the AI to create the assets..." according to Valve's response to the original poster. Even after the developer went back and modified his artwork by hand, Valve still banned his game due to the same copyright issues.

Valve's stance on AI-generated content will prevent a lot of developers from utilizing AI-generated content in their games (unless they want to jump ship). Based on Valve's response, developers must effectively own the rights to ALL source material used to train the AI. This is a blocker since most AI networks are trained on millions of images/assets across the web to create compelling content.
Looks like they want to kill open source AIs.

Adobe trying to screw over the industry. I suspect in the long term it will even out though, once copyright law gets established. Depends on the outcome of some lawsuits, I think.
 
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Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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So even "AI" art strongest point - character portraits, is a no go.

I thought about using "AI art" for textures - (its extremely bad at texturing actually so I rejected the idea, but that aside) how does Steam figure out your game has AI generated content, in the more subtle use cases such as texture generation?
 
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https://www.pcgamer.com/uncanny-sta...its-lovely-villagers-with-33-provided-brains/

Uncanny Stardew Valley AI mod replaces its lovely villagers with '33 provided brains'​

By Harvey Randall
published about 24 hours ago
JojaMart wins.

Stardew Valley is a game known for its cosy homegrown feel, with complex, well-written characters populating a little village trying to scrape by under the looming shadow of a mega-corporation. So obviously, an AI company made a mod that scrapes out their personalities and replaces them with a large language model, with the appetising sales pitch: "By default, there are 33 provided brains."

InworldAI promises to "craft characters with distinct personalities and contextual awareness that stay in-world or on brand." Watching Pelican Town's civilians rattle off lines of inoffensive text, however, feels like I've stumbled into some alternate JojaMart bad ending, where all the textured characters of Stardew Valley have been body-snatched by clones.

Stardew Valley works well because it endears you to its cast of characters, walking you through charming slow-burn stories. Shane, for example, is a character who struggles with both his depression and alcohol abuse. Getting to know him means untangling a thorny exterior and helping him face his own demons. It's a heartfelt storyline for what's otherwise a decidedly cosy 'n' cute game.

But why sit comfortably with a well-crafted character for a limited time, when you could talk to a hollow shell of them forever? You can even program Inworld's faux-people yourself, who act based on the "profiles you create for them." If you don't like Shane or his problems, you can just tinker them away. This is new-Shane, he talks with exclamation points about long walks in the forest. Don't ask what happened to the old one, it doesn't matter, new-Shane loves you.

I don't mean to come down too hard on the players who buy into this sort of thing—after all, the prospect of actually getting to have a conversation with your favourite NPC is appealing. But when I see comments asking things like "can you make a tutorial on how to edit an existing brain?" and "dude I tried to edit Haley's personality but I [keep crashing]", I feel, uh, not good.

The use of AI in mods has been picking up steam as the tech progresses, with some particularly harrowing examples impacting the voice acting community. While it's harder to see where exactly these "brains" have been pulled from, there's still something weirdly violating about what I'm looking at.

I might just be a curmudgeon, but digging out the personalities that Stardew's developer Eric Barone—otherwise known as ConcernedApe—worked hard to create seems self-defeating. I like stories with characters in them, and a big part of why they work is that they end. They have an idea to communicate, they do that, and then they stop. I don't want to talk to Shane for 100 hours if those hours are meaningless.

Granted, if AI's part of the design from the ground up, such as with Stanford University's AI experiment or Hidden Door, I'm less bothered. And there are plenty of ways this tech can be used for good, like translating 5,000 year old tablets or messing with other AI-generated scam callers. But tampering with deliberate worlds, especially ones concerned with things like a corporation muscling in on a community-driven town—is a solid swing and a miss for me.

https://www.inworld.ai/blog/inworld...alley-mod&utm_medium=cta&utm_source=nexusmods

https://www.nexusmods.com/stardewvalley/mods/16816?tab=description

 

Egosphere

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So even "AI" art strongest point - character portraits, is a no go.

I thought about using "AI art" for textures - (its extremely bad at texturing actually so I rejected the idea, but that aside) how does Steam figure out your game has AI generated content, in the more subtle use cases such as texture generation?
What about stuff like With Poly? Has tileable texture feature, and some of their showcase is quixel-tier
 
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So even "AI" art strongest point - character portraits, is a no go.

I thought about using "AI art" for textures - (its extremely bad at texturing actually so I rejected the idea, but that aside) how does Steam figure out your game has AI generated content, in the more subtle use cases such as texture generation?
What about stuff like With Poly? Has tileable texture feature, and some of their showcase is quixel-tier
Out of the box its rather generic, aimed at 3D, and does not look good at all for 2.5D texturing.
 

Zeriel

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Ah, here's something:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/valve-banning-games-using-ai-art
For the game to pass Valve's inspection, the developer must "own the rights to all of the IP used in the data set that trained the AI to create the assets..." according to Valve's response to the original poster. Even after the developer went back and modified his artwork by hand, Valve still banned his game due to the same copyright issues.

Valve's stance on AI-generated content will prevent a lot of developers from utilizing AI-generated content in their games (unless they want to jump ship). Based on Valve's response, developers must effectively own the rights to ALL source material used to train the AI. This is a blocker since most AI networks are trained on millions of images/assets across the web to create compelling content.
Looks like they want to kill open source AIs.

Adobe trying to screw over the industry. I suspect in the long term it will even out though, once copyright law gets established. Depends on the outcome of some lawsuits, I think.

Yeah, but the whole competitive premise is AI allowing small companies to disrupt the industry. This just reads like it will be a way for megacorps to cut costs & fire artists.

Honestly though, unless we see some massive generational leap in the quality of AI art, I don't think it will take over anytime soon. I can recognize AI imagery at a glance and once you get used to it, its appeal quickly falls off. AI art touched up by human hands is a lot better, and it could be interesting to see someone developing AI applications for developing AI art in more interesting ways like tilesets or models, but so far the lazy application is just 2D portraits you'd cull from a fanart website, which limits its application severely.

I think the most impressive usecase so far is audio. It's led to some hilarious memes, and you can also see it being extremely useful for stuff that previously provided a hard roadblock to individuals... say... modding modern high-production-value 3D games. There was a hard limit for most people of how do you make a high-quality singleplayer mod for a Bethesda game that adds questlines and dialogue when all dialogue has to be voice-acted? AI actually offers a nice solution there. As much as it sucks for voice actors.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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I thought about using "AI art" for textures - (its extremely bad at texturing actually so I rejected the idea, but that aside) how does Steam figure out your game has AI generated content, in the more subtle use cases such as texture generation?
They probably use an AI detector. AI detectors use algorithms and AI to detect AI images. I think the main factor is diffusion patterns, so I kind of doubt textures are going to be an issue, since all sorts of false positives get generated from things like photoshop filters and probably other patterns that get generated with texture processing like upscaling. I would think that textures would generate false positives more often than not, so they may not analyze them the same way as portraits, but that's just a theory, I've never tested it.

If you want to be safe, you could just use Adobe's AI to generate, since they offer license rights as their model is trained on their own IP. I bet Steam would be fine with that, even though you still don't own the copyright on AI images, since they're machine generated and machine generated images aren't copyrightable without significant human modification.
 
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Correct_Carlo

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Ah, here's something:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/valve-banning-games-using-ai-art
For the game to pass Valve's inspection, the developer must "own the rights to all of the IP used in the data set that trained the AI to create the assets..." according to Valve's response to the original poster. Even after the developer went back and modified his artwork by hand, Valve still banned his game due to the same copyright issues.

Valve's stance on AI-generated content will prevent a lot of developers from utilizing AI-generated content in their games (unless they want to jump ship). Based on Valve's response, developers must effectively own the rights to ALL source material used to train the AI. This is a blocker since most AI networks are trained on millions of images/assets across the web to create compelling content.
Looks like they want to kill open source AIs.

Adobe trying to screw over the industry. I suspect in the long term it will even out though, once copyright law gets established. Depends on the outcome of some lawsuits, I think.

Yeah, but the whole competitive premise is AI allowing small companies to disrupt the industry. This just reads like it will be a way for megacorps to cut costs & fire artists.

Honestly though, unless we see some massive generational leap in the quality of AI art, I don't think it will take over anytime soon. I can recognize AI imagery at a glance and once you get used to it, its appeal quickly falls off. AI art touched up by human hands is a lot better, and it could be interesting to see someone developing AI applications for developing AI art in more interesting ways like tilesets or models, but so far the lazy application is just 2D portraits you'd cull from a fanart website, which limits its application severely.

I think the most impressive usecase so far is audio. It's led to some hilarious memes, and you can also see it being extremely useful for stuff that previously provided a hard roadblock to individuals... say... modding modern high-production-value 3D games. There was a hard limit for most people of how do you make a high-quality singleplayer mod for a Bethesda game that adds questlines and dialogue when all dialogue has to be voice-acted? AI actually offers a nice solution there. As much as it sucks for voice actors.
This is only tangentially related, but I used to be really into Grimes, the electronic artist, but I really loathe her now because she thinks she's some kind of AI visionary, but she has a really limited and dumb view of its role in art that lacks vision. Basically, she made AI samples of her voice and is now only releasing music and art that's been created through AI. The problem is that the art and music is all shit, and absolutely no one would care about it if she hadn't already been famous as a non-AI artist, because literally anyone can create their own shitty AI art now.

There will be a role for AI art in the future, but I think its true potential will lie in its ability to create personalized virtual experiences entirely for an audience of 1. In other words, it will enable Star Trek Holodeck like experiences. However, I think there will always be human made art that is directed at an audience of other humans. I even think that once the complete glut of shitty AI created art, games, and music arrives, branding a work as "entirely human made" will actually become a selling point.

Which doesn't mean that jobs won't be lost. I tend to agree that if you are a basic artist working in video games on big budget projects, you're probably fucked. I even think that most RPGs will likely end up having NPC dialog be a mixture of AI and written content fairly soon.
 

Tyranicon

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Everything's going to be swamped in shitty AI stuff sooner than you'd expect. The online art scene and mobile games are already seeing it right now.

It's a great time to be a solodev but awful to be part of a game studio.
 
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Everything's going to be swamped in shitty AI stuff sooner than you'd expect. The online art scene and mobile games are already seeing it right now.

It's a great time to be a solodev but awful to be part of a game studio.
It is already happening in places like UE4 asset store. Its burgeoning with crap. Interestingly these assets seem to have virtually no purchases. From the forums its clear to see AI already that its established a deserved reputation for crap.

This is very similar to what happened with Unity/Steam Greenlight. A flood of diahorretic games.

If we can compare the two events, we can see the crap still remains but the demand for quality is ever there. I think that's the lesson here. I don't think people have an opinion that are for or against AI art or content generation as such, but people will not want to absorb the vast majority of what AI content producers are putting out there.
 
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Nothing here is of interest to me...except the re-texturing tool, I'd like to see if that works as well as it does in the demo.
 
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MarathonGuy1337

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Honestly we can only hope that AI is used to allow for independent and novice developers to break into the industry and compete with the mega-corporations and isn't ultimately used as another tool of the mega-corporations or more acculturate a tool used solely be corporations. I like to think of AI being similar to the printing press which was the democratization of information in this case AI is the democratization of the arts no longer something reserved for a privileged few but something which will let anyone explore their creative side and be equally competitive to the mainstream.
 

Gregz

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Honestly we can only hope that AI is used to allow for independent and novice developers to break into the industry and compete with the mega-corporations and isn't ultimately used as another tool of the mega-corporations or more acculturate a tool used solely be corporations. I like to think of AI being similar to the printing press which was the democratization of information in this case AI is the democratization of the arts no longer something reserved for a privileged few but something which will let anyone explore their creative side and be equally competitive to the mainstream.

This is an apt comparison, since games are now propaganda.
 

Tyranicon

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Recipe: Corporate-dominated media wasteland


Ingredients:

  • Mouth-breathing consumer masses
  • AI that allows for cheap content generation
  • Corporate greed

-dystopian vibes intensify-
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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Recipe: Corporate-dominated media wasteland

A company has to try to stand out from the norm in order to succeed. Right now, the only was to do that is with graphics, voice acting etc.

But if everyone has access to higher end graphics made with AI, and if any game can be fully-voiced, suddenly the playing field is different, and game devs will have to produce better content, or more of it.

Writing is an issue though, since the AIs are all brainwashed to be liberal, but liberals are currently all we have in the industry anyway. And if you really wanted to write something that isn't liberal, you still can. You'll just need to do it yourself.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Retro will become gold again if high end gfx and ai is pulling the workload. Vector lines WARP 10. ENGAGE!
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
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Recipe: Corporate-dominated media wasteland

A company has to try to stand out from the norm in order to succeed. Right now, the only was to do that is with graphics, voice acting etc.

But if everyone has access to higher end graphics made with AI, and if any game can be fully-voiced, suddenly the playing field is different, and game devs will have to produce better content, or more of it.

Writing is an issue though, since the AIs are all brainwashed to be liberal, but liberals are currently all we have in the industry anyway. And if you really wanted to write something that isn't liberal, you still can. You'll just need to do it yourself.

I used to be an optimist too. But a decade and half of hanging out in the indie dev community has taught me indies aren't exactly the best at using new tools.

AI will be vastly "better" utilized by corporate media, not individual artists. Many of whom hold some stupid grudge against AI in the first place.
 
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Gregz

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Recipe: Corporate-dominated media wasteland

A company has to try to stand out from the norm in order to succeed. Right now, the only was to do that is with graphics, voice acting etc.

But if everyone has access to higher end graphics made with AI, and if any game can be fully-voiced, suddenly the playing field is different, and game devs will have to produce better content, or more of it.

Writing is an issue though, since the AIs are all brainwashed to be liberal, but liberals are currently all we have in the industry anyway. And if you really wanted to write something that isn't liberal, you still can. You'll just need to do it yourself.

I used to be an optimist too. But a decade and half of hanging out in the indie dev community has taught me indies aren't exactly the best at using new tools.

AI will be vastly "better" utilized by corporate media, not individual artists. Many of whom hold some stupid grudge against AI in the first place.

Mediocrity hates being replaceable.
 

Tweed

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First they came for the furry smut artists and I said "Lol, lmao even."
 

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