Interview inXile's Torment successor officially announced on RPS, will use Monte Cook's Numenera setting

[St. Toxic]

Why, your unsubtle "games must evolve" hint is a total Biothesda mentality. This is what they say everytime they Haloize the genre another step.

I didn't say anything about games must evolve. I'm saying that if there's a notable distinction between one piece of technology and another, it makes no rational sense to lump them into the same category. For instance, a carriage with an engine is a carriage with car-parts, but a car is not a carriage. Both rely on wheels, which are instrumental to their operation, but you naturally couldn't say that they are wheels simply because they were preceded by this component. The wheels themselves have gone through numerous alterations in order to serve their function as technology improves, and are therefore also distinguished by how they are used.

In that instance however, unlike wargames and rpg's, the techs are striving towards same goal of transporting goods and individuals with maximum efficiency and convenience. In our debate, we don't even have that. We're talking about one genre trying to accurately simulate battles as they may evolve in a large-scale conflict, generally using a static system and striving towards clearly defined objectives, and another genre trying to tell dynamic stories through world exploration and character development. The only aspect they have in common is that both genres generally contain combat (though rpg's technically don't need to), and while wargames themselves may have influenced the development of pnp combat mechanics, it's actually more plausible to say that it's the development of pnp mechanics that has influenced our modern implementation of combat in wargames.

Bullshit. The desciption for "literally any game with rpg elements" is:

1. Make a non-RPG.
2. Suddenly recall some idea from an obscure genre known as "RPG" and plug it in as an afterthought.
3. ...
4. Much more profit

I'm assuming you're trying to make a joke. It's cute, but doesn't reflect reality. Obviously rpg mechanics aren't put in games as an afterthought, because even a bad implementation is a time-consuming process and would serve no purpose in a profitable 'non-rpg'. If anything:

1. :smugface: Visualize profit
2. Draw up plans for a non-rpg
3. Realize that it has no chance of success as a stand-alone product
4. Make a shitty non-rpg-rpg (i.e dungeon-crawler) and build your non-rpg around it
5. Straight to profit (...without jrpg references)

Also, in case gaming media has clouded your mind despite your valiant efforts to stay dense on your own terms, Bonuses and Unlockables aren't in themselves rpg-mechanics. They're more like card/board-game mechanics that have made their way into all kinds of genres. Naturally, when you've gotten your 50'th headshot there's an element of progression involved in handing you your +1 damage buff, but the concept is too general in nature to really be attributed to rpg's in particular.

Within the context of videogame market of 1980, Wizardry and Ultima were among the bestsellers. Mainstream enough.

"Mainstream enough" is not an answer, though. You need to also define what constitutes as enough and why it's enough.

However, it is not market exposure itself that matters, it is recognition. Something becomes a new genre when a sufficient amount of people agree on it.

Then what about your wargames? The 'majority' certainly seem well aware that rpg's just aren't wargames, and yet you disagree. How come?

Market exposure only helps to gather critical amount of said people, to get the word out. When a large enough amount of people agree "yeah, it haven't been done before", and then copycat products arrive to make it a trend rather than unique artifact defying categories, then it becomes a "genre".

Well, sure. One game certainly couldn't define a genre on its own, but then you're faced with the dilemma of developing a balanced system for which crop of copycats one should use as genre-defining canon. Do we use the first examples of the trend, unlike your stance on wargames? Since PNP simultaneously inspired both text-adventures and dungeon-crawlers (before the advent of crpg's) as a continuation of an analog form of escapism and entertainment, I could certainly live with that -- the end result would fall somewhere in a hazy middle between adventure games and strategic combat. Maybe you'd like to use the latest examples of rpg copy-cats, as you did with wargames, i.e action games with rpg-elements? Or how about a general sample of all self-proclaimed rpg's -- like some average of Diablo and EOTB?

Ah, Black Isle fan club detected, I rest my case.

I think the jury is out.

So Chainmail borrowed elements from Dungeons & Dragons? Cool

That's right. A genre-defining component was borrowed by a genre which isn't defined by said component. I'm surprised that, despite being a sandbox fag, your thinking follows such a linear path.

Yep, games are all about fun. Surprising, huh?

Put it up on kickstarter.

Now, some people find exploring, understanding and exploiting the mechanics fun. That's a different story.

Why the hate for wargames, huh?

The rules and mechanics are the game, that's the definition of game.

But, you realize, that such a statement says nothing about cutscenes or twitchy action-gameplay, right? Maybe this mentality is part of the problem?

 

[mondblut]

I didn't say anything about games must evolve. I'm saying that if there's a notable distinction between one piece of technology and another, it makes no rational sense to lump them into the same category.

Suggesting players to speak in tongues while rolling dice does not constitute a distinct technology.

"Mainstream enough" is not an answer, though. You need to also define what constitutes as enough and why it's enough.

42 *shrug*

Then what about your wargames? The 'majority' certainly seem well aware that rpg's just aren't wargames, and yet you disagree. How come?

I am doing the same thing the larping fags did in late 70s, or bioware did in late 90s. Eroding the mainstream (mis)conception, one victim at a time.

Well, sure. One game certainly couldn't define a genre on its own, but then you're faced with the dilemma of developing a balanced system for which crop of copycats one should use as genre-defining canon. Do we use the first examples of the trend, unlike your stance on wargames? Since PNP simultaneously inspired both text-adventures and dungeon-crawlers (before the advent of crpg's) as a continuation of an analog form of escapism and entertainment, I could certainly live with that -- the end result would fall somewhere in a hazy middle between adventure games and strategic combat.

By your logic, there are no different genres of rock music, since they all hark back to Elvis.

So Chainmail borrowed elements from Dungeons & Dragons? Cool

That's right. A genre-defining component was borrowed by a genre which isn't defined by said component. I'm surprised that, despite being a sandbox fag, your thinking follows such a linear path.

But why didn't Gygax use his time travelling powers, which enabled him to be influenced by a 1974 game in 1971, to prevent Lorraine Williams' takeover?

 

[mondblut]

mondblut

Would it be okay to assume that what we want from RPGs today is not the same that we want from *pure* wargames? I think the entire struggle to just find the correct games that can satisfy the term RPG is a bit too pointless.

Who's that "we" dude you are speaking of?

Sure thing, wanting something "pure wargames" with their precise objectives and predefined set-piece battles lacked is the thing that created RPGs in the first place. I, for one, am content to leave it at that. Some others also want them to speak in tongues, dress in costumes and engage in virtual romances.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Who's that "we" dude you are speaking of?

I think it is NOT wrong to want a story as well as good combat mechanics from a game. Wargames do have settings and narratives but they are NOT too personalized. Although I can not attest to that, I think that even PnP RPGs are attempts to evolve towards personalized experiences. Computer games on the contrary, as you are fond of saying, involve YOU and Your computer. If such games are not personalized through some form of story, not all of us can enjoy them. cRPGs have an audience which in my opinion requires this PnP based personalization in form of story and stat based mechanics. Those are the 'we'.

Sure thing, wanting something "pure wargames" with their precise objectives and predefined set-piece battles lacked is the thing that created RPGs in the first place. I, for one, am content to leave it at that. Some others also want them to speak in tongues, dress in costumes and engage in virtual romances.

As I said, it is some amount of personalization along with the mechanics, in my belief. I strongly object to having Romances as a part of or even worse the focus of that personalization. But having a well written reactive world and story is totally desirable to me.

 

[St. Toxic]

Suggesting players to speak in tongues while rolling dice does not constitute a distinct technology.

Meaning that the difference between

Monocled gentlemen ordering their manservants to arrange their collection of miniatures around the lawn

and pnp rpg's is "speaking in tongues and rolling dice".

Even so, that's actually quite a distinction.

*shrug*

Oh, got nothing? Well, I guess Black Isle really did make the first crpg.

I am doing the same thing the larping fags did in late 70s, or bioware did in late 90s. Eroding the mainstream (mis)conception, one victim at a time.

Eroding is right. You're digging yourself a nice big hole and I'm handing you sand, one bucket at a time.

By your logic, there are no different genres of rock music, since they all hark back to Elvis.

I think you got me confused with yourself.

But why didn't Gygax use his time travelling powers, which enabled him to be influenced by a 1974 game in 1971, to prevent Lorraine Williams' takeover?

Because Dicksmoker hates time-travel. What you're overlooking is that publishing dates are not the same as the date of conception. Just like Philip K Dick put bits of A Scanner Darkly into works that came out years before Scanner, DND may have existed as a tangible concept long before the 70's, gradually influencing more and more of Gygax' work.

 

[mondblut]

Meaning that the difference between

...playing Chainmail and playing D&D is speaking in tongues. Don't pretend to be denser than you are.

Oh, got nothing? Well, I guess Black Isle really did make the first crpg.

Want me to write a petition to UN suggesting a worldwide referendum?

Back in 1985, it didn't occur to anyone to file a game called Gauntlet under "RPGs". Fast forward 10 years, and Blizzard succeeded at convincing its massive userbase than an identical game called Diablo is "RPG", against desperate protests of more purist fans. 10 years further, and no one bothers to argue any longer, since popular opinion firmly settled on considering it an RPG and nothing is going to change that.

As for Black Isle, why, you fanbois even lost the total domination you used to have over the Codex, and I am content to know we "mondblutians" have played a role in that. As for the rest of the world, no one gives a shit. 10 years from now on, Black Isle will be remembered as an obscure company which were licensed to do some crappy prequels to the bestseller Fallout franchise by Bethesda

Eroding is right. You're digging yourself a nice big hole and I'm handing you sand, one bucket at a time.

The buckets you gonna need are too heavy for you to lift

I think you got me confused with yourself.

Eh? You are grasping at some "hazy middle between adventure games and strategic combat" because PnP influenced both opposites, not I.

What you're overlooking is that publishing dates are not the same as the date of conception. Just like Philip K Dick put bits of A Scanner Darkly into works that came out years before Scanner, DND may have existed as a tangible concept long before the 70's, gradually influencing more and more of Gygax' work.

Did you use ouija board to contact E. Gary's ghost?

 

[mondblut]

I think it is NOT wrong to want a story as well as good combat mechanics from a game.

It is not. Wrong is taking it for granted and retconning the continuity pretending that "if there is no story it's not RPG".

 

[Captain Shrek]

I think it is NOT wrong to want a story as well as good combat mechanics from a game.

It is not. Wrong is taking it for granted and retconning the continuity pretending that "if there is no story it's not RPG".

I fully sympathize with this; Bloodbowl is more of a RPG than most games marketed with that name for me. So it JA2 and XCOM.

 

[St. Toxic]

...playing Chainmail and playing D&D is speaking in tongues. Don't pretend to be denser than you are.

But what makes Chainmail representative of the full body of wargames? And what's the difference between DND and the variations on Diplomacy designed by Gygax? I'm guessing that would be the dice.

Want me to write a petition to UN suggesting a worldwide referendum?

Back in 1985, it didn't occur to anyone to file a game called Gauntlet under "RPGs". Fast forward 10 years, and Blizzard succeeded at convincing its massive userbase than an identical game called Diablo is "RPG", against desperate protests of more purist fans. 10 years further, and no one bothers to argue any longer, since popular opinion firmly settled on considering it an RPG and nothing is going to change that.

Hey man, I never argued that popular opinion or market exposure is what defines a genre; you did. It's irrelevant what the gray sludge of anti-intellectuals believe and the fact that it's never going to change is self-explanatory. But if you're going to wash your hands of everything you've said so far with "I don't need to present any rational argument for why my seemingly idiotic assessment is correct, because popular opinion won't and never will agree with me." then it's a white flag from you, and a green light to make any idiotic blanket statement about the genre without being in disagreement with your opinions on the subject.

As for Black Isle, why, you fanbois even lost the total domination you used to have over the Codex, and I am content to know we "mondblutians" have played a role in that. As for the rest of the world, no one gives a shit. 10 years from now on, Black Isle will be remembered as an obscure company which were licensed to do some crappy prequels to the bestseller Fallout franchise by Bethesda

Ouch, that smarts. As a self-professed Black Isle fanboy this really strikes a nerve, and what a nerve. Meanwhile Fallout 3 is good for what it is, Dragon Age is goty and the best 'rpg' combat we've seen in years is to be found in Dark Souls. Mondblutians, Codex owes you a debt of gratitude.

The buckets you gonna need are too heavy for you to lift

So you're digging yourself a hole that's too big for even me to fill? Brilliant comeback.

Eh? You are grasping at some "hazy middle between adventure games and strategic combat" because PnP influenced both opposites, not I.

I gave you a few outs, you could reread the post. I personally don't think either text-adventures or dungeon crawlers fall into the crpg category and that any definition of the genre has to be more specific to be of any use, but since you're arguing that rpg's are a direct continuation of wargames, and crpg's are a computer adaptation of rpg mechanics (which at the onset included both adventure games and dungeon crawlers) then defining the genre by the earliest examples (which you have done at one point, albeit in a one-sided way) would include an equal proportion of both iterations.

Meanwhile, downplaying and outright ignoring the differences of the genres, from wargames, to rpg's and crpg's, as you do, is very much like saying death metal is the same as rock'n'roll, as both styles make use of electric guitars and the one was preceded by the other.

Did you use ouija board to contact E. Gary's ghost?

Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't get anything useful out of him as spoke only in tongues. Though, it makes sense, as wiki says he's a larper:

At the age of ten, he and his friends played the sort of games that eventually came to be called "live action role-playing games" with one of them acting as a referee.

So, he was into larp way before he came into contact with wargames. Once familiar with wargames, but before publishing any wargame-related works, it's natural to assume (well, wiki states as much) that he would try to combine the two interests in a single system, and being a big sci-fi and fantasy buff from an early age would certainly leave a mark.

As someone who's (or at least claims to be) interested in PC-games, does it strike you as particularly weird to have a few dream-designs dedicated to memory or even paper for what kind of game you yourself would make if you had half a chance? Suppose you actually landed a job in the games industry, do you think you'd have the opportunity to instantly realize these ideas in your first few publications? Probably not, and especially not when you're working within an established franchise or genre. But you would certainly try to sneak one or two in, in case the ideas caught on and eventually allowed you to finish your magnum opus.

But maybe you're right. Maybe he actually got the ideas from reading his own published works.

 

[mondblut]

But what makes Chainmail representative of the full body of wargames?

Let's see. There are units with stats, they move about the battlefield and fight using a combination of stats and random dice rolls.

And what's the difference between DND and the variations on Diplomacy designed by Gygax? I'm guessing that would be the dice.

Variations of Diplomacy do not simulate skirmish-level combat?

Hey man, I never argued that popular opinion or market exposure is what defines a genre; you did. It's irrelevant what the gray sludge of anti-intellectuals believe and the fact that it's never going to change is self-explanatory. But if you're going to wash your hands of everything you've said so far with "I don't need to present any rational argument for why my seemingly idiotic assessment is correct, because popular opinion won't and never will agree with me." then it's a white flag from you, and a green light to make any idiotic blanket statement about the genre without being in disagreement with your opinions on the subject.

Genres are not "defined". Genres are agreed upon.

While claiming whether something belongs or does not belong to a given genre, you are not proving a theorem (although having convincing arguments such as appeals to precedents or suitable comparisons does help to sound convincing). You are battling for the minds. In hopes of eventually convincing a critical enough mass of those concerned to support your opinion, thereby making it reality. Belief moving cities, hey.

Ouch, that smarts. As a self-professed Black Isle fanboy this really strikes a nerve, and what a nerve. Meanwhile Fallout 3 is good for what it is, Dragon Age is goty and the best 'rpg' combat we've seen in years is to be found in Dark Souls. Mondblutians, Codex owes you a debt of gratitude.

Feeling now betrayed by the genre the likes of you have once subverted in their own image? Good. It's like 1997 all over again, except in another camp. Karma is a bitch

I gave you a few outs, you could reread the post. I personally don't think either text-adventures or dungeon crawlers fall into the crpg category and that any definition of the genre has to be more specific to be of any use, but since you're arguing that rpg's are a direct continuation of wargames, and crpg's are a computer adaptation of rpg mechanics (which at the onset included both adventure games and dungeon crawlers) then defining the genre by the earliest examples (which you have done at one point, albeit in a one-sided way) would include an equal proportion of both iterations.

I fail to see what kind of RPG mechanics do you find in text adventures. Text adventures descend from CYOA books in pretty much pristine form.

As someone who's (or at least claims to be) interested in PC-games, does it strike you as particularly weird to have a few dream-designs dedicated to memory or even paper for what kind of game you yourself would make if you had half a chance? Suppose you actually landed a job in the games industry, do you think you'd have the opportunity to instantly realize these ideas in your first few publications? Probably not, and especially not when you're working within an established franchise or genre. But you would certainly try to sneak one or two in, in case the ideas caught on and eventually allowed you to finish your magnum opus.

What "chances" and "job in the industry" do you speak about? The scene Gygax was involved in was pretty much DIY.