Game News IGN picks best PC games of E3 2004

[Anonymous]

First, learn to type before you try to comment on others (which I had spelled right to begin with..).

And second, I have to agree with Spazmo that you're a raving psycho. Moronic third-person talking and "roleplaying" when just talking to folks aside, you seem to keep a sheet of paper and write down every error that the RPGCodex staff says. I can just imagine you, sitting in your parents basement, eyes twitching as you stare at the screen, with pencil in hand, 'WE IS GOING TO TEAR WEBSITE DOWN'.

Then you make all that random crap up in your mind, and talk about bias, if you want to talk about biases, please find a mirror close to yourself.

On another note..

". FF did have some pretty colorful characters but really, how many lines did they have? They were all cookie cutter 'good guys' with a hint of dialogue and a dash of personality... and not much else. Minuteman was just Captain America with a revolutionary outfit, and his sidekick was Robin. Bullet was the Flash (and much like the Flash, he had very little to say) and so forth."

That's why they were so likable, sir.

 

[Gromnir]

"I dont understand, how exactly does the implementation of a single spell (namely charm) open ToEE up to a large degree of scrutiny with respect to rules implementation? is it your assertion that ToEE did not implement the 3E DnD ruleset as well as another 3E title? If so, please elaborate. "

don't be ridiculous. the reason why we bring up charm is 'cause that was spaz's example of how well troika implemented stuff in toee. he coulda' chosen anything, but ironically he chose one of the most busted aspects in the game. if we wanted to go through all the busted stuff in toee, it would take all day.

"I just find it peculiar that whenever you appear, you seem to bitch at me because I didn't like KOTOR and like ToEE for reasons you think are fabricated by me. I'd say that's a trend."

now THAT is narcissism.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Anonymous]

Hey look, it's Gromnir
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame80.html

 

[Shevek]

don't be ridiculous. the reason why we bring up charm is 'cause that was spaz's example of how well troika implemented stuff in toee. he coulda' chosen anything, but ironically he chose one of the most busted aspects in the game. if we wanted to go through all the busted stuff in toee, it would take all day.

I see, so is it your assertion that ToEE is so filled with such fatal rules implementation flaws as to dwarf those of other DnD titles?I ask this since it seems you hold the title's rules implementation with such contempt. Would ToEE be a worse example of DnD combat than say IWD2 or BG? This is obviously subjective but I think it would be best to simply lay ones opinion out so the discussion could be a bit more fruitful.

Also, I still am not exactly sure why exactly you feel it is so odd that someone could find the characters in FF better done than those in KoTOR. FF was a campy title, do you feel the characters would have been better if they were not campy? Again, is the volume of dialog the only means by which to determine the quality of character design? How well was Carth's character served with all of his dialog in comparison to, say, Mentor's?

 

[Gromnir]

"Moronic third-person talking and "roleplaying" when just talking to folks aside, you seem to keep a sheet of paper and write down every error that the RPGCodex staff says."

another bed wetter who likes to dish it out but gets all weepy when somebody points out codex bias and lack o' objectivity. for chrissakes, the biggest threads you got on these boards is bio related, and they ain't big 'cause you kids is seriously debating bio merits and shortcomings. talk 'bout lunatics

"First, learn to type before you try to comment on others (which I had spelled right to begin with..). "

you gonna have to explain yourself chum. we never claimed in this thread that you made a spelling error someplace... just suggested that you was dim. feel better now?

btw, lunacy nof Gromnir or spaz has absolutely no bearing on whether the observations either of us makes is valid... maybe should learn the real definition of "argumentum ad hominem." is nothing particularly illogical or illogical 'bout calling folks names... but when that is your entire argument...

yet another free lesson.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Anonymous]

Not getting weepy, just pointing out you're an idiot and a loony.

 

[Gromnir]

"I see, so is it your assertion that ToEE is so filled with such fatal rules implementation flaws as to dwarf those of other DnD titles?"

ever hear of straw man? we never said that. personally, accurate implementation o' d&d rules ain't an issue for us, but when somebody tells us that toee WAS accurate and that they replicated "to a T," we cannot help but note that these is, to say the least, exaggerations.

did troika get lots of pnp d&d rules into toee? sure they did. they also got lots wrong, and at the end of the day, the game played no more like real pnp d&d than has any other crpg we ever played.

however, Gromnir has many times noted that despite the mishandling of toee, we hoped troika got another shot with their engine to get it right... was many good things 'bout the engine and toee, if viewed as kinda a very large demo. gave us hope for future.


see, that is difference with Gromnir. we is objective and rational. we ain't a fan of what troika did in arcanum, but we not simply denigrate and insult anything they choose to develop neither.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Spazmo]

Here's the thing. Gromnir didn't like ToEE. Therefore, anyone who did like ToEE must be a liar, a hypocrite, a fraud and biased. Okay, that's typical internet wackiness.

But then, Gromnir apparenlty didn't like KOTOR all that much. And yet people who also didn't think KOTOR was exactly the cat's meow are liars, hypocrites, frauds and biased.

This is why Gromnir is loopier than a box of Cheerios and yet half as delicious and with no essential nutrients.

 

[Shevek]

I see, so you feel ToEE played no closer to one of your PnP sessions than did any other cRPG. Similarly, you think ToEE got as much wrong with the rules as IWD2 or any other title for all practical purposes. Therefore, you assert that any qualitative statement that praises ToEE for being a closer implementation of DnD combat must be completely offbase? Im sorry, but I do not agree with your assertions here or your belief that these very subjective statements reflect objective fact.

 

[Gromnir]

"Here's the thing. Gromnir didn't like ToEE. Therefore, anyone who did like ToEE must be a liar, a hypocrite, a fraud and biased. Okay, that's typical internet wackiness.

"But then, Gromnir apparenlty didn't like KOTOR all that much. And yet people who also didn't think KOTOR was exactly the cat's meow are liars, hypocrites, frauds and biased. "

you are almost as obtuse as llama. it is not your opinions we find fault with. we don't care 'bout your opinions. is your reasoning that sucks. you start with: spaz liked. from that point you try to prove to others why your liking makes sense. see, that is why you always screw up and nobody beyond codex takes you serious... no objectivity.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Anonymous]

Coming from someone who roleplays in their posts..

 

[Transcendent One]

Gromnir's role playing is strange, though. He uses fairly complicated words every so often and yet can't grasp even the most basic rules such as proper verb conjugation or pronoun usage. I don't know what's up with the guy.

Edit: it makes you wonder whether he tries to play a dumb or an intelligent character. Maybe he tries to mix the two, thus the "we" reference to himself. Makes one wonder if he's got some sort of identity crisis going on.

 

[Gromnir]

"Im sorry, but I do not agree with your assertions here or your belief that these very subjective statements reflect objective fact."

funny, only mention of objective fact by Gromnir in this thread was Gromnir talking 'bout charm, and how it were a fact that charm was implemented wrong in toee... and that defenses to charm was implemented wrong. not much 'bout charm that were implemented correct.

as we said, spaz coulda' chosen anything... and he chose charm. was classic.

...

you likes to read lots of stuff into other folks' posts, don't you?

we noted that we liked the toee engine, despite being so busted. was a strength of toee, if a limited one, that they was able to implement so many rules. is not something we particularly care ‘bout, but we applauded the effort. was the ai, writing, poor design, voice acting, bugs, and a dozen other things that made toee so dismal.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Sol Invictus]

". FF did have some pretty colorful characters but really, how many lines did they have? They were all cookie cutter 'good guys' with a hint of dialogue and a dash of personality... and not much else. Minuteman was just Captain America with a revolutionary outfit, and his sidekick was Robin. Bullet was the Flash (and much like the Flash, he had very little to say) and so forth."

That's why they were so likable, sir.

No. There was too little about them for me to judge if I liked them or not. I did however like the ant man, because his story was a bit more fleshed out than the rest and he had some actual personality beyond the whole "I AM A FORCE OF GOODNESS" schitck..

 

[Sol Invictus]

You mentioned the state of the AI (which was dumb, at best), writing (which was boring), voice acting (which was fucking awful), and the bugs (which are quite evident) that made TOEE so bad. These are things that everybody knows made the game not as good as it could be (newspeak translation: bad) but I'm curious as to what the other 'dozen or so' issues are.

 

[Shevek]

I am confused. We were discussing rules implementation. You had mentioned, with some vehemence, that much was broken with ToEE. When I asked if this meant you felt that ToEE showcased a lackluster implementation of the ruleset compared to other titles, you responded that it played no more like actual pnp than any other DnD title. Again, our conversation was pertaining to rules implementation not dialog, voice acting or story. Is this the "busted stuff" you referred to? If so, I would ask that you limit the scope of the conversation to what is being discussed rather than stray and then claim others are reading things into your posts.

 

[Gromnir]

“You mentioned the state of the AI (which was dumb, at best), writing (which was boring), voice acting (which was fucking awful), and the bugs (which are quite evident) that made TOEE so bad.”

you need more? those is the big ones, but if you want more…

they used a known d&d module, so no surprise for anybody who had played.

out of all the crappy 1st ed modules, they used a really bad one.

at the last minute, somebody at troika realized that having killable children was a no-no in a bunch of euro countries... so busted quests (not bugs.)

no x-y-z.

magic item creation feats was completely unbalancing (with an easy to reach exp level cap, and no time needed to create.)

even w/o creation feats, toee was munchkinized.

the time that went into the useless and numerous opening sequences, all of which were done poorly, is time that coulda' been spent on something useful.

fed-ex us to death? btw, that ain’t just a matter of following the module.

no jewel case.

identify were implemented wrong. and for those of you who ain’t clear on 3.5 identify (the version in the manual,) identify, the spell, reveals all properties. this was particularly irritating for the named items as ‘posed to the generic ones.

no alchemy skill… and with identify being busted this made identifying potions even harder.

no dragons. toee had dragons.

we could come up with more if you want?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Jed]

actually, that is a spelling/typo error... but thanks for pointing it out. no doubt you has earned yourself a cookie from fellow codex fanatics.!

So what did you earn from pointing out LlamaGod's spelling error? Or does this have something to do with the "h word" you were mentioning before?

 

[Anonymous]

no alchemy skill… and with identify being busted this made identifying potions even harder

Pretty sure Alchemy isnt in 3.5..

 

[Spazmo]

I think they might have rolled that into Knowledge.

 

[Gromnir]

which we didn't get in toee.

toee was a mish mash of 3,0 and 3,5 either way, the alchemy analogue weren't there, was it?

"So what did you earn from pointing out LlamaGod's spelling error? Or does this have something to do with the "h word" you were mentioning before?"

please re-read thread... this was explained and Gromnir never criticized spelling.

I am confused. We were discussing rules implementation. You had mentioned, with some vehemence, that much was broken with ToEE. When I asked if this meant you felt that ToEE showcased a lackluster implementation of the ruleset compared to other titles, you responded that it played no more like actual pnp than any other DnD title. Again, our conversation was pertaining to rules implementation not dialog, voice acting or story. Is this the "busted stuff" you referred to? If so, I would ask that you limit the scope of the conversation to what is being discussed rather than stray and then claim others are reading things into your posts.

easily distracted ain't you?

maybe you should reread thread.

a person reviews toee and, of all the examples to choose of stuff toee did right, they choose charm... now, this is ironic to say the least, 'cause charm were one of the worst implemented aspects of toee, and the worst implementation of charm we had seen in any d&d game... and most of the defenses were screwed. was very telling that folks who was trying to point out the good things in toee would not be able to find one.

this confused you.

"don't be ridiculous. the reason why we bring up charm is 'cause that was spaz's example of how well troika implemented stuff in toee. he coulda' chosen anything, but ironically he chose one of the most busted aspects in the game. if we wanted to go through all the busted stuff in toee, it would take all day."

are these statements untrue? we has noted that a toee engine has much potential, but as implemented, it was very broken. with bugs, and data entry errors and just poor design elements adding up to make toee one of the most busted games we ever played. now, considering that one of the major selling points of toee was its accurate implementation of 3e rules, we find this discouraging.

you was discouraged that Gromnir was suggesting that it were a fact that toee's implementation were worse than other d&d games. no doubt you realize now that Gromnir never made such a statement. only factual statement was that charm was wrong.

you need anymore help here?

HA! Good Fun!

 

[DarkUnderlord]

(I mean, heck--it hasn't even got items).

Neither did Myst, for the most part. Though Myst I suppose is more of an adventure game.

 

[Shevek]

Well, it seems you decided to go off on a tangent in mid conversation and talk about other aspects that displeased you about ToEE since it seems you could not easily criticize its rules and combat implementations. This lead me to misread some comments since your particular grammatical style and word choice can often lead to comments that can be a bit vague. Yes, everything seems a bit clearer.

I can see you do not like the title but I could care less what you think about the story or the voice acting. Though you criticize others for a lack of objectivity or perhaps defending the title blindly, I think perhaps you may be a bit too quick to criticize and a bit too obtuse as well. My questions had to do with what exactly were your thoughts on the ruleset and combat implementations. It seems that you viewed these favorably. Perhaps others that enjoy the title enjoy it because of these things. In other words, they may overlook some of the negatives you mentioned and choose to focus on what they like from the title.

One piece of advice:
Simply answering the questions clearly rather than coaching each of your posts with requisite insults and baiting or going off on unneccessary tangents would go a long way to lending credibility to your assertions.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hey, at least TOEE has graphics, and 3d graphics, too! Baldur's Gate didn't have 3d graphics and nobody made a fuss about that. Bard's Tale didn't even have graphics!

Count yourself fortunate to have played TOEE with its 3d graphics. Graphics are a feature, dammit, not a requirement.

 

[Gromnir]

"seems that you viewed these favorably. Perhaps others that enjoy the title enjoy it because of these things. In other words, they may overlook some of the negatives you mentioned and choose to focus on what they like from the title. "

actually, you is wrong again. we liked the POTENTIAL of the engine. as implemented, with all the bugs, and with poor design choices (e.g. identify, reach weapons, etc.) and with the really bad ai, toee was simply too tedious to be worth our time.

the engine did have potential though... it just not come anywhere near its potential.

as to quality of story and voice acting... those things is too often relegated to a "its just opinion," category. final choice of whether you like story or not is opinion, but story development elements can be looked at objectively. heck, you can even take course at university that teach nothing but analytical approaches to criticizing literature. Am not gonna tell you that you should like or dislike toee story, but if you tell us that the characters was well developed or that the plot were anything more than most simplistic cliché, then we will have to disagree.

HA! Good Fun!

p.s. the interface was also very clumsy for Gromnir when dealing with a party of 8.