I really suck at Starcraft

[Edward_R_Murrow]

So myself and a group of compatriots have recently started playing some Starcraft now, probably in anticipation of Starcraft 2 or whatnot. We've mostly been playing 3v3 or 4v4 LAN games, and maybe a comp-stomp every once in a while. Problem is, I find that I'm sucking it down. See, at first I was doing really well, but then I opened up a bit of a Pandora's box so to say.

What happened was, we were playing 3v3 on an island map. I picked Protoss before I found out and was planing a dragoon/zealot/reaver type of shebang. After finding out it was an island map though, I figured that wasn't such a great idea. So I decided to say "Fuck it" and I slapped down 5 stargates, a Fleet Beacon, and two Cybernetics Cores as quickly as I could while snapping up two nice mineral/gas islands. I figured mass carriers can't be that good.....turns out I was pretty wrong. They mopped the floor with all three opponents in no time. And like any reasonable people, they learned from this. Now carriers dominate the games. At first I was able to get the drop on people with other stuff, but they've learned fast. Wraiths worked at first, then they brought observers. Devourers worked nicely, they they brought arbiters or had a terran/protoss teamate go just anti-air/defense for the two carrier builders. I tried hydralisks plus defiler's dark swarm, but that only seemed to work as a last ditch effort in base defense against carriers, and typically not a great offense. Scourges have a hard time hitting them because of the interceptors, and big maps plus the aforementioned one teammate being solely defense really screws my zerg rush because a random supply depot/bunker defense or mass photon cannons nails me hard.

Now I know I can do something, I'm just not sure what to do. Any micromanagement tricks are out because I suck at it like no tomorrow. And because of that, I'm awful with the terran as well. Anything I'm missing out on? Any suggestions from the people here who are probably good? Or should I just give up and try to out-carrier them?

 

[Kraszu]

Ok first of all carriers are late into the game, if they rush for carriers then you can kill them whit anything fast or if they photo cannon up then just don't let them take expansions, and it will be 1 base carriers vs whatever 3base whit anty air attack.

On non island map it would be even more ridiculous to go fast carriers, all of them would have to mass photo cannon and will survive if there were no terran whit sige tanks, team that don't go fast carrier take expansions.

You have to think in terms of getting economically ahead of map control not only on what unit is more cost effective. Carriers are good unit but there are reasons that force you to not go straight into them that I had mention.

VS carriers Prottos:
Dark Archons whit mind control just take they carriers.
Templars can deal some dmg
Goons to support.

Terran has no really good anty carrier units:
Goliats just rember to make fast upgrades for them goliat has 20 dmg air and each upgr makes him do 4 more so 20>32 armor is important also.
You can try ghost whit lock down but they are hard to use becouse they have low hp.
wraiths suck becouse P can make corsairs.
You can use science vessel emp shockwawe if you have lots of gas but most likely you would be better just getting more goliats.

Zerg:
Plague defiler spell that cuts hp of units to 1 so they would have shield making carriers 3 times weaker or something like that I am not sure. Then finish them off.
Devaluers are good dunno what are you talking about it is better to use some other unit whit them.
Scrouges but you have to be decent at selecting targets.
You can just finish whit muta also.

 

[MaskedMartyr]

This is why I play high resource maps.

 

[RK47]

here's a tip. If they are predictably going for carriers, you can easily counter them with mass scouts. Upgrade them and they will serve as mobile strike force, Dragoons are not as effective counter since they can't fly, but Scouts simply dominate the air.

If you're on Brood war, you can even make a balanced air fleet consisting of lots of scouts & some corsairs for anti cannon jobs. It wouldn't hurt to have a 2 shuttle with Reaver + Zealot to punch their mineral line (2 scarabs = dead drones) hitting the mineral line makes the opponent spend more on his economy than building his army, sometimes ppl even forget to rebuild their drones and by the time they realized it, it'd be too late.

Another tip would be to utilize 3-4 templars to create hallucination. This would serve as a distraction should your enemy insist on 'Making a blob of carriers'. Send the distraction force to their expansion with 2-3 scouts to deal some dmg, when they respond with their carrier fleet, send the real force to hit another hotspot.

 

[TrustNo1]

As I understand it, common agreement is that Scouts suck, because they are too expensive. They pack a good punch though. Those missiles make fast work of overlords and I`m sure carriers too. If you have enough that is. I think it costs nearly as much as the carrier (Without the interceptors).

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Ice, ice baby! Whenever someone masses at you with the big ships (Terran Battlecruisers or Protoss Carriers), I used to have great fun with the Arbiter "Ice" ability. It'll take out 4 or 5 of their Carriers in one hit and with enough Arbiters (2 - 4), you usually take out 90% of their fleet, while the rest get hammered by your Dragoons, your own fleet of Carriers or Templar Electrical Storms. Always be sure to hang around until they un-freeze though, so that you can then destroy them. Divide and conquer all the way.

Alternatively, when they attack you, you should be attacking them. There's nothing quite like the "sure I'm losing, but have you guys seen your base lately?" effect they get in mid-attack when someone messages "WTF!?" as they realise half their base is gone and you've taken out their entire resource gathering capability.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're playing against people who are well co-ordinated and your own teammate's suck. I used to have that a lot online.

 

[RK47]

Yeah, I forgot about the Arbiter. Just hold on to the principle of Protoss 'Less is more' and you'll be fine. Protoss v Protoss is all about outmuscling.

But like DU said, if it's 2 v 1. Just tell your friend to play protoss and mass cannons like a homo.

Scouts have no place in a 1 v 1 game...but since the thread starter said Carriers are being the dominant game unit, I'd say nothing tear through them better than scouts.

Scouts build faster too. A carrier fresh off the factory is useless till he gets 8 interceptors out. Scouts on the other hand can protect your expansion while taking down theirs too. Take the initiative early on to block expansions and i'm sure they'll turtle up n die.

 

[Kraszu]

Arbiters are good to but seriously if you think that carriers are valid in 3v3 against anything then you just suck. The problem is simply that you can attack in 3 one of them fast and others will not be able to help. If they will mass canon then you can take map.

 

[Atrokkus]

What Kraszu said, and one another rule I just can't stress enough: stop thinking in terms of "ultimate army" and "universal soldiers" -- there's no such thing in starcraft. you can never knwo for sure what you're going to use througout a single game, even though there certainly are preset patterns/templates for each race.
Also, don't forget about map control, unless you play on resource maps (which is retarded). Just build nexus/hatchery/CC on new spots whenever you have spare cash, and dont even worry about fortifying it -- odds are if you keep your enemy occupied, he wont have a chance to disrupt early resource production, and by the time he does, the expansion will have warranted all the expenses involved in contructing it, along with tons of extra income.

 

[Jeff Graw]

Templars + scouts + observers

 

[Aothan]

I have played Starcraft, at a casual level, since release. Finally walked away from it last year. Throughout most of my Starcraft experience I really focused on ffa games. These games can be really unpredictable in the early to mid phases and positively chaotic at late stages. Carriers have always been an issue.

The first game I played was a 1v1 on Green Valleys, if you have started playing in the last five or six years you might not have even seen this map Carriers came for me even from the beginning, although Im really glad to say I used Lockdown reasonably well on my first play.

Most of the problems with Carriers come back to player skill and game design balance. Starcraft is primarily if not exclusively designed for 1v1 games, beyond this setting game balance does tend to go awry. By balance I dont mean possible unit counters but simply how reliable player skill is in determining outcomes.

That said the biggest decisive difference in team or ffa games when it comes to effective Carrier counters is whether you are playing on a money map or not. If you are on Big Game Hunters or a map with similar excess resources, reliable Carrier counters are possible but much more difficult.

On a non-money map Carriers can be countered in a number of ways at different stages of the game. The main reason is that Carriers are very expensive units, without multiple expansions Protoss cannot go mass Cannons, perhaps Templar, and then transition smoothly into constant Carrier production.

Depending on your race the options are simple enough, you have to scout anyway so you will be reasonably informed if a player is really tech jumping in that direction.

As Terran, just determine how far ahead in their tech and production they are, mostly you can with reasonable build efficiency go and siege their cannon line, and if they are really behind go with Marines and Medics. Make sure you have not let them freely expand, but if they have and you are building reliably just attack their main, they will lose production and should not make it back in time.

I have some great replays of non-adapting Carrier players losing to 8+ Barracks sending in a constant stream of M&Ms. If they are ahead, it can be a good deal more difficult to respond but you just need to repel their first attack, after which all things being equal they wont have the free resources to attack you or venture on open ground against Goliaths, Marines, Science Vessels and Wraiths.

As a new player the problem is learning to scout, to monitor possible expansions, to keep track of their tech and unit numbers and from these points properly assess the situation and what your options are.

As a Zerg player, so long as are aware of their intentions in advance the advantage is mostly yours. Defillers really outclass Carriers, Plague and Darkstorm will counter the basic attack. Remember to focus fire with Hydras. Just make sure you can defend all of your base/s. Nydus Canals should be a lot more expensive.

If they take too long or their first attack is negated you will have free resource, build Scourge and hit the Plagued Carriers, I think it is 4 Scourge for each Carrier.

This is obviously a very basic outline but that is how it works in average player skill games, which is typical for public team games or free for alls.

Resource maps are completely different on these maps Carriers can be a real pain but the same maps can be exciting because there is a constant stream of different units and you can (with sufficient space) have a good and diverse number of unit production facilities. I used Terran a lot at the end, and it is very challenging but enjoyable way of playing.

Contrary to some opinions of who plays these maps while there are a lot of new or less experienced players there also a number of average to good players as well. They micro their units, they use special abilities and take full advantage of the implications of high resource intake.

So on these maps you will encounter difficult Protoss players who back up Carriers with Arbiters and Corsairs. This is where the advanced Protoss technology shines in battles. Arbiters keep Carriers stealthed, stasis multiple units and against Zerg recall in four+ Reavers ! Combined against Zerg these units do tremendous damage in a short period. Corsairs use Disruption Web against ground forces and if they doing all of this you will also likely see a Shuttle or two come in with Templars.

Hopefully Zerg has been building Hatcheries all game and has at least 20 in place to keep production continuous. Either way if Protoss can take the initative and has the skill to utilise the full capacities of this army it is really difficult for Zerg. But on the other hand Zerg can use the same production facilities to continuously swarm Protoss. Hundreds of Cracklings and many Hydras will be wasted within minutes, but if the stream can be maintained (DarkSwarm, something, Guardiands likely, to attack Reavers and Templar) and the Protoss defenses fall, Zerg will overwhelm the base.

Of course this is when Terran drops 15 Tanks, 20 Goliaths and mass Marines in Zerg's main

 

[Kraszu]

Actually marines and medics makes carriers almost useless interceptors die like fly, just don't attack carriers but hold position and steam to kill interceptors . They aren't used much in TvP becouse they suck against templars and reavers.

 

[Luhh]

Uhm, instead of discussing it here, you could head over to the western mecca that is..

www.teamliquid.net

WARNING! Don't create an account and spam the forum with "noob questions", but take the time to read through the strategy section. There you will have lots of tidbits.


Of course there aren't a lot of strategy discussion regarding 3vs3 or 4vs4, since those are very rarely played (due to few good maps for it, and mostly that the game isn't suited well for it.)

Hunters - a popular map for team melee games (one of extremely few suitable for 3vs3), protoss is king if you know how to dance your zealots and pump drones.

Otherwise usual combos are P&Z or T&Z for 2vs2. Double zerg is somewhat looked down upon since you can gain twice the punch of mutaling, or 9pool etc. (not allowed in competitive play for that reason)