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How would you make the JRPG genre...

Joined
Jan 5, 2012
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It seems we agree that worst thing about jRPGs is that they're made by the japs.

Starving children should make the system and the combat in bamboo sweatshops and then someone remotely reasonable(poor eastern european countries seem to have a knack for this) should make the characters and the storyline using them, with Amerikkkans putting the two together with the power of Hollywood.

Starving kids will get a bowl of rice daily, poor eastern european country devs will get a sack of potatoes daily, amerikkkans will get insanely rich and we'll get nice games. Everybody wins.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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On to more serious business (COUGH Black Chimes COUGH). Would anyone like to see more experience systems like what was used in Fable: The Lost Chapters? I was just thinking earlier yesterday how good it worked and how I actually had a lot of fun working with it (though I was a bit dissatisfied when I found out that you could just max-out your character on everything).

For those not in the know, Fable TLC used 3 types of experience based on the three main categories of the available gameplay (I think it was Fighting, Stealth, and Magic plus generic experience that you don't get nearly as much of). Performing an action within a category (I believe some magics would also help you build up experience in the other two categories) would gain you some experience, but the more uninterupted strings of actions you could pull off the higher the experience multiplyer. Through building up the three experience bars the player could select more and more ways to improve their character and give them more gameplay options/ attacks.

I prefer this use-base point-buy system to the Elder Scrolls games' use-system because I can perform a variety of actions and not necessarily just improve the action being performed. Also, the point-buy aspect gives you managable goals to get/improve an action in a list; the growth of which can be sped up through careful play. I believe something like this could be done in a classic Wizardry-inspired JRPG combat system (you would have to use your party members to deflect and stop enemy attacks from interrupting the member you want to build up experience, which might also yield other tactical advantages to the "shielded" party member).

What say you Codexers?
 

Damned Registrations

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Been done before.

Not exactly like that, but SO3 had a chain system for gaining xp faster (though the rest of the game is horrible) and plenty of jrpgs (including SO3 I think, but definitely SO2) have had point buy systems where you gain skillpoints on levelup to spend on various things. Adding separate pools for different categories of action/experience would be a nice improvement.
 

Raghar

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Whats with that? Village elders are always incredibly lame in jrpgs for some reason, even though they're usually badasses in any other medium when it's a japanese story.

Try it, you'd see the reason in first 5 minutes...

Village elder in Tales of Eternia was also somehow realistic. She only looks like a bich, later you discover she had a very strong reason. (Aka it's a bit surprise they were not executed for what they did few years ago... Even children were executed for lesser crimes. Especially in similar societies.)
 

Retinue

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I said I'll leave but I just happen to finish reading this and I'm still logged in and the topic interests me so for those who still care, this idea already exists in reality with StarTraders RPG Elite and Cyber Knights RPG Elite for the Android.

As with most things though, the genre is not the catalyst alone. Japs having a more anti-Gaijin mindset would require convincing through something local or something that's totally mainstream in the West in terms of recognition.

CRPG players are not necessarily 4x gamers either and 4x gamers may not necessarily love the Smuggler style theme of StarTraders and Cyber Knights lack of complexity in relation to a non-Android game may or may not satisfy people who love Shadowrun for the Snes for example.

Even story whores may be turned off by the general theme though I would argue if storyfags stick with it enough, it's a thing of beauty.

Nonetheless, from a generic criteria, it's somewhat easy to envision - more questionable to program as the circumstances are not software alone:

1st criteria: Start off from Japan or market to the Asians in order to create the idea that it was tailor made for them.

2nd criteria: Release it as a PC port as PC games often come off as CRPGs which can turn off JRPG gamers

3rd criteria: Use the PC version as the mediator between the two crowds. JRPG would love it if it contains some The Sims aspect especially if it's not DLC but more like CYOA options akin to the Witcher. CRPG would love it if initially you can switch out the graphics for something less kiddy. It can be as generic as JRPG have large eyes and most npcs are unarmored and CRPG graphics are mostly armored with the more mature anime eyes.

Gameplay mechanics:

-Take Phantom Brave's real time circle system, combine it with Vandal Heart 2's dual simultaneous combat and wrap it in a mini-RPG Maker style of spell effect packs with the initial pack being a set of PnP spells especially the more post-DnD ones which can apply to both genres. It doesn't even have to be extremely detailed. I highly doubt CRPG lovers would hate a game for turning a magic missile into an actual magic missile looking effect for example. When you consider the latter spell types being even more psychological, it's more about treating it as legitimate spells rather than colored attacks that would be the difficulty.

Plot mechanics:

-Combine the interaction found in 7th Saga and Depths of Peril when it comes to NPC recruitment.

Of course there are more that can be done to appeal to both sides but that would be tl;dr but as a generic quick template, it was never that hard. Few game developers just does not find the concept appealing enough as a theory worth exploring enough and where interest has surfaced, games have surfaced. It's that simple. If you zoom out, there's not really that much conflicts with JRPG from CRPG.

JRPG simply don't spell it out more (compared to quality animes) that the plots are not centered around preteens but child prodigies. Even the ones where this doesn't apply find inspiration in such concepts. Also age is such a second thought to them that they switch the age around anyway in any controversial Western release.

Similarly CRPGs don't spell it but most plots are not centered around generic characters but special combat detectives/marines. This actually helps in JRPG as it's the adults that always helps the young ones. Take a simple story like Lunar or Suikoden. It's the adults that create the filter for the younger characters to grow.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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Simple steps on how to make JRPGs better:

- No swords
- No teenagers as protagonists.
- No angels as final bosses.
- No black-and-white morality.
- No main characters are metro-sexual.
- No romance scenes.
- No themes of "love defeats all evils".
- No palette swaps for enemies.

- Make the antagonist relatable.
- Make (if used) guns highly lethal and more lethal than medieval weaponary.
- Make status attacks (ex: poison magic) good.
- Reduce grinding filler.
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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DragoFireheart, check out Anachronox.

Fucking awful blocky graphics, but other than that it looks pretty good. Watched a little youtube video on the intro. Main character is a loser with debt: Perfect! ^^
 

Retinue

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Sounds like you're talking about the Wild Arms series. Not exactly totally bereft of all these but certainly fit many of these qualities. Didn't exactly make the series a well beloved one by many CRPG lovers.

I'd be curious too what CRPG you're talking about that somehow does not have these equivalents. Just because CRPG age the protagonists' faces for example does not mean the game world does not demand them to be Elmindor-age before they become that powerful a

Mythology-wise, angels make some of the most sense for final bosses as it denotes that it's such a rare event that one cannot simply mimic the event nor does one have much of a motive to do so. Makes final sequences more exclusive and mysterious to the protagonist. Something CRPG lovers tend to stray towards to except they tend to forgive that anyone in history can easily fictionalize a Dragon fight or a Lich fight to come off as heroic.

The list goes on and on. It's like you interpreted this thread to be your preference rather than the key phrase: Just like classic CRPG convention. Then again, maybe you are among the 100% of half-trolls the poster from the other thread mentioned. Oh well. I just couldn't resist this thread as long as I'm still logged in. There are just many things that are beyond stupid, I don't know if it's blindness to the genre or JRPGs make certain CRPG act like the Bethesda/Bioware lovers they denounce.
 
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Simple steps on how to make JRPGs better:

- No swords
- No teenagers as protagonists.
- No angels as final bosses.
- No black-and-white morality.
- No main characters are metro-sexual.
- No romance scenes.
- No themes of "love defeats all evils".
- No palette swaps for enemies.

- Make the antagonist relatable.
- Make (if used) guns highly lethal and more lethal than medieval weaponary.
- Make status attacks (ex: poison magic) good.
- Reduce grinding filler.

Save the points regarding mechanics, this is more like a list of things you personally dislike rather than a list of things that would really improve these games.

Would a party of scruffy balding men wielding assault rifles be more believable than one composed of sword-wielding teens with fabulous hairstyles be more believable and mature when they are still making a living out of roaming the countryside to beat legions of monsters for wenches and gold? If characters can have relationships that go beyond "yo, we need a mage. You in?", is the game already ruined or is it just the romances' vapid, swallow execution that makes them seem more like an afterthought made to cater to horny gurl gamers? Is a grimdark world where love will invariably get you shot in the back of the head automatically better than a more simple black and white setting? do you really need to relate to the villain / antagonist? Is a bullet always more lethal than a battleaxe to the mouth? etc etc
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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Game companies can't do proper romances. Period. It's like trying to get a game company to do a proper movie video game.
 

Retinue

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Escape From Butcher Bay had a positive reception from critics.[57][58][55][56] Certain reviewers preferred the game over its film counterpart, and considered it an exception to the general mediocrity of film tie-in games.

I'd try to pick a romance game but I don't even know what you mean by proper romance and the more I think of it the more idiotic "proper" romance is as if love is not spontaneous or that proper romance won't fly over anyone's head. Hell, the sex as trading factor in the Witcher flew over most people's head when it a good litmus test for the morality of the player. For example, in Phantasy Star III you started with a wedding of all things and the prince not only went through all that trouble but you were even given a chance of truly wedding the person. More of a horrible game but in what aspect does that not imply proper romance?

If you meant mechanics, many games have gift systems but of course most players don't really love the digital character so how exactly is it the game developers fault?

Could game companies do better. Obviously. You can see that in games like Thousand Arms and Harvest Moon and in the banter potential presented by games like BG but this is one aspect where the gamers' lack of idea is just as much at fault.
 

Raghar

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Simple steps on how to make JRPGs better:

- No swords
- No teenagers as protagonists.
- No angels as final bosses.
- No black-and-white morality.
- No main characters are metro-sexual.
- No romance scenes.
- No themes of "love defeats all evils".
- No palette swaps for enemies.
That would make it boring.

- Make the antagonist relatable.
Greek theatric plays had that stuff. I consider better a game where all parts of story are completely neutral. Aka all have some goals they try to fulfill to theirs best effort. No throwing dirt at someone, every main character has a place.

- Make (if used) guns highly lethal and more lethal than medieval weaponary.
Last time I checked a hit from a sword was more lethal than a shot from 12.7 mm HMG. Perhaps you'd like to play a game where they are hiding behind a terrain irregularity and try to shot an unaware opponent. Then they would decide to use thermobarics. Fireballs are better, the same as termobarics, and you can use them every day even when you are few months out of supply, no unnecessary ammo load.

- Make status attacks (ex: poison magic) good.
FF X. Perhaps you played it.
- Reduce grinding filler.
That's often self imposed.

Why do you want a mass attack of mooks with sword of petrifying? Or our favorite goblin bombers?

Retinue
That was a shooter. I should know that, I shot aliens with a shotgun, before they captured me yet again (or was it a complete inability to make a jump...).
 

Raghar

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That explains it. There was even Choice and Consequence regarding use of Bio.

Bio - 4 turns and creature is kissing dirt.
Big Malboro - Sleep, Paralysis, Bio against the whole party.
 

Retinue

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Jan 6, 2012
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Retinue
That was a shooter. I should know that, I shot aliens with a shotgun, before they captured me yet again (or was it a complete inability to make a jump...).

Drago didn't specify it had to be an rpg. Most movie based videogames are mainstream movies and most of those are not going to try and apply a niche genre like rpgs when action or even GTA type games are now present.
 

Damned Registrations

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Only 25 year old protagonists are mature enough to do things like advanced C&C with killing innocent people for lulz and then recovering your reputation by doing some trivially easy task. Much easier to relate to than teenagers. I mean, how many of you guys have ever been teenagers? None, I bet.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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DragoFireheart: Don't touch my swords, man. I can still remember up to when I was about 5 years old holding a plastic sword over my head and shouting, "I HAVE THE POWER!" If RPGs can't be used to recreate the childhood He-Man experience they should be wiped from history LOL!

But seriously, one of the main things that JRPGs have is younger characters. I think there are a whole lot of wrong ways to use younger characters like over-sexing them or making them like ten (where you wonder why anyone would let such a young person go out into the wild to get horribly marred to death by monsters). The right way (at least from my observance) is to show that the young characters can take care of themselves (usually showing that they have become badass while everyone else has kinda been a slouch in their combat training compared to the character), have worth in society (they've made large and small changes for the better in the world), and/or are trying to see the world through a new lense (I really tend to like this not go with the flow and be jaded like everyone else attitude). Another reason I think young characters are good for a JRPG is that some of my favorite stories ever have young protagonists (Peter Pan, Avatar: The Last Airbender, The Chronicles of Narnia, Pay it Forward, Harry Potter, Animorphs, etc.).

Between the "No angels..." and "No pallette swaps...," it's really a toss-up if any of those things apply. The angel thing really made sense for Kefka and Sephiroth (Final Fantasy 6 and 7, respectively) because Kefka wanted to be looked on as a god (whose entire theme is based off "The Divine Comedy," and so decends like a fallen Seraphim in his final form) and Sephiroth litterally wants to be God (in this case the planet, Gaia, by merging with it), but Sephiroth's final form, Safer Sephiroth, is angelicly related through his name in relation to the Bible (the name of his final form roughly translates to "Book of Numbers," and the themes surrounding him throughout FF7 have a lot to do with numbers like those tatooed on his genetic slaves or how Shinra Corporation hoped he would lead them to "The Promised Land" just like Moses in that book of the Bible he's named after).

As for relatable antagonists, eh, it depends how much you read into them (and it helps if you think they are cool/exciting to start with). Take two of many peoples' favorite RPG antagonists, Jon Irenicus and Kefka. I, personally, don't get Irenicus with the whole love of the elf queen yet somehow lusting for power, which makes him do something unspeakable and changes him for the worse forever (even though the elf queen says he's not the man she once knew it just feels so out of left field like Bioware just tacked her on to "humanize" him when they really just needed a character seeking godhood, IMHO). I just don't get any sense that Irenicus was anything but creepy as there is just not enough about him to resolve the questions that nag me about how his love affair with the elf queen contributed in any way to his motivation to become a god. Though, David Warner did do a hell of a job with Irenicus' lines, especially during the scene where he is getting arrested.

Kefka, in contrast has much less lines and information about him but the same goal. However, he does have a consistant character that constantly makes the suffering he puts upon others sound like a laugh to him. He is completely arrogant and uncaring of others while at the same time making it entertaining (it's like Mark Hamill's The Joker). Kefka also has a foil in General Leo throughout much of the game. Despite being on the same side even soldiers of the empire they serve lament how opposite the two are. Then there is some intrigue created by a piece of dialog slightly hidden in the game world that Kefka lost his mind because of being the prototype for the empire's magitek knights before the process of magic infusion was perfected. So we may not know who he was before the events of the game, but by the end we know Kefka's entire god-complex was partly obsession with his own growing magical power and partly because he is an extreme nihilist wanting to make everyone believe in the meaninglessness of everything and worship him so that he might bring finality to a worthless existence. Again, how much you read into a character matters a lot when trying to understand them.

The only other point I wanted to look at is the guns being more lethal than medieval weapons. I'm pretty sure that a guy with a gun is more likely to kill someone than a guy with a sword. Modern guns have high rates of fire, large clips, and range on their side. However, one can't make you more dead than the other and both can induce countless different injuries in varying degrees of lethality. In a JRPG this shouldn't count for crap, though, as gun or sword is just a skin over some hopefully fun to play around with game mechanics (I think Phantasy Star 1 handled melee weapons and guns pretty good). Guns and Swords in video games may be a tired trope, but it still feels interesting to have that dichotomy of old vs. new but on equal terms that real life lacks.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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The whole gun vs sword thing becomes especially silly when you consider what the characters are fighting. A shotgun might be really deadly to a normal human. But to a fucking elephant? Good luck with that shit. If Hero McGee can cleave an elephant in twain with a single sword slash, I'm thinking guns aren't going to automatically be better. Never mind when it's an armored plated zombie elephant.

I'd survive a shot from a deringer more easily than a hit from a lance on horseback, I'm pretty sure the same can be said of an assault rifle vs the incredible hulk wielding a battle axe.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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DR: I'm still fairly certain in real life you would be dead either way if a still somewhat unscarred war veteran/ person who practiced using the weapon came at you.

But reality wasn't the point. Guns and Swords are just game mechanics with the option of whichever style of weapon you prefer. Everything seems to come down to attacking stuff and HP depletion anyway (and I am just about certain any other way of playing besides overcoming an enemy through choice of battle tactics/ a cool puzzle would be too contrived a system to be considered a game).

My feelings toward Guns and Swords' relevance aside, it is certainly not required to break up logical flow and make the setting a little more different, uncanny, or interesting (and as we know it's a very common theme in schizotech fantasy- check it out on tvtropes.org and lose an undisclosed vast amount of time). The important thing is that distinct and interesting mechanics that could be under those skins are preserved to keep battles interesting as far as how the player thinks they can win said battles and puts some intriguing imagery around those mechanics.
 

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Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Not if I were wearing some ungodly body armor. Then an assault rifle wouldn't do jack, while the hulk still chops me in half.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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Can a knife go through Kevlar much less Dragon Skin TM? Also, unless the creature you are attacking is made of some materials on a whole different level (you know like going against an Abrams with a pistol or a Claymore two-handed sword) damage all comes down to location and the severity of the injury. This pretty much destroys conventional equipment progression in RPGs unless you can be satisfied with most melee weapons being more durable and having different purposes in battle like historical weapons.

This brings me to another question (though more general to RPGs than just J-style ones). Why are there so many items and spells that just become obsolete as a game progresses? It has always felt like such a waste of mechanics just to be replaced by better and better all-purpose numbers and effects. There's nothing to work on or master as you will just move on to "the next big thing," anyway. I posit that more weapons should only be effective against certain enemies and in only certain situations. Also, PC skills and stats should have more weight than the stats of the weapon when determining effectiveness (my statement before this should still take priority). This may not be a solution to this feeling I have of disjointed and forced-to-be-obsolete mechanics, but in concept the design seems attractive.

Any other thoughts Codex?
 
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Because making unique stuff is harder than making the next sword give + 10 damage. Also, people just like finding new shiny stuffies. I still remember the butthurt over FF8's system - you didn't buy or find new weaponry, characters improved their weapons by reading magazines, acquiring raw material and paying a smith. Coupled with the fact that you couldn't kill spiders for gold pieces (enemies didn't drop money, you received a salary now and then), the grindan fanatics resorted to DRAWDRAWDRAWDRAW to satisfy their lust for mind-numbing repetitiveness.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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Wow, that is sad Clockwork Knight. However, I didn't mean that the character should stick with the same weapon the whole game just that a bunch of items and actions could be still be necessary (depending on how you play) untill the end of the game. Final Fantasy 6 had a few items (hawkeye for taking down Flying-qualifier enemies, elemental swords for massive elemental damage with the Throw command, maybe some others) and actions (Fire is the main one I can think of right now because it is the best way to cure the Frozen status) that you get a good bit earlier than the end of the game and all the other content that can still be used to decent-good effect by the time you are absolutely done with the game. And then there is all the items in Zelda games. Finally, though I did not like the game itself, Fire Emblem for Gameboy Advance had a neat circular weapon hierarchy of Swords>Axes>Spears>Swords (in my immagination swords are like short spears with a lot more sharp edges than an axe that can deliver a heavier blow than a spear that can do damage from a greater range than a sword).

All of these things make me think that there is still unexplored territory in revamping the RPG process of out with the old- in with the new more-effective replacement stuff.
 

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