Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

HoI3, help me bros

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
So I'm playing HoI3 as US and the war with japs seems inevitable.

Basically the main question is what are the best ways to create a naval invasion force?

I've already put some effort into creating carriers+screens (destroyers, light cruisers) strike force (also will navies consisting of carrier + 2 battleships + 3 screens do and not get raped? I also plan on keeping 10 ship carrier force in the immediate neighbourhood)

But the main question is how should I go with infantry/tanks? I understand that marines will be the main infantry force but beyond that... help me bros with my divisions!

Don't want to inevitably fuck up and restart doing all the shit from '36 come '41.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
The important thing with divisions is to know that you have two kinds of brigades: Combat brigades and support brigades. These are easy to tell apart, as all combat brigades have 3,000 soldiers and all support brigades have 1,000. Why it's important to know this is because support brigades do not take any width in combat, which can give you a considerable advantage in firepower. The composition I use the most is three combat brigades and two support brigades (needs Superior Firepower tech, easily gained in mid-1939).

Now, the first consideration when building a division is terrain and mission. This is most important with tanks, marines and mountaineers. You see, support brigades also influence the division's terrain penalties and mission efficiencies. This means that adding anything except engineers to Marine or Mountain divisions is counter-productive. However, I've found that two engineer brigades are a good supplement for three Marine/Mountain brigades because of the additional terrain bonuses, river-crossing bonus, movement bonus, defense bonus, but most of all the attack bonus against Fortifications. Even a level 1 Fort can be a pain in the ass.

With tanks, the consideration is that tanks suck anywhere except easy terrain, and river-crossing is immensily hard. To counteract this, two measures are needed: Combined Arms bonus and Engineer bonuses. Engineers make tanks considerably more useful in the tougher Asian and Russian terrain types, able to cross rivers with respectable ability, and give Fort attack bonus. Motorized brigade in addition to the three Armour brigades (Armour is the best tank type) eats up front, but there are advantages (in my opinion, decisive advantages) to using them instead of the more powerful Mechanized brigades: 1) Mechanized brigades are expensive as fuck, 2) Motorized consumes less supplies and oil, 3) You can begin constructing Motorized brigades considerably earlier, and 4) Mechanized can stab you in the back late game and get too low Softness which negates Combined Arms bonus.

Because you'll be fighting mostly in low infrastructure jungles, your best bet is to focus on Marine divisions of 3 Marine Brigades and 2 Engineer brigades. You don't even need to really bother with tanks or infantry, because Overlord is completely unnecessary in HoI3, since the Soviets will utterly crush Germany before they're even in Kiev (you won't believe the amount of modding tricks I've been trying to do to fix this).

Otherwise, you won't need Infantry divisions until you reach the Home Islands and Chinese mainland. Armour isn't very useful in Japan, as Japan is very mountainous and has lots of urban provinces. Southern China has a lot of Plains though, so a Corps or two of tanks can be very useful. The most important thing you need for an invasion after the fairly light land fighting in Pacific is a massive transport fleet, no need for escorts, because that's what your actual fleets do. Just stick some Old Fart Guard admiral with low skill at the helm of the 40 or so transport flotillas.



For naval warfare (I'm gonna post in this regard anyway), in my experience the strongest navy possible relies on Light Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Super-Heavy Battleships and Carriers organized into fleets where the Positioning penalty is less than 20%. Having two carriers each fleet is a good idea.

Destroyers are worthless, IMO, because they sink like rocks. The Light Cruiser provides better protection at only marginally higher cost and longer build time, while having immensily larger staying power. This is important, because the less you need to waste time building replacements for your screens, the more time you can spend sinking enemy fleets. Naval warfare in HoI3 is more than anything about attrition, as replacing ships takes much, much more time than repairing them.

Super-Heavy Battleships are better at everything than Battleships (may not be the case in vanilla, but it is in ICE and later updates where they upgrade from techs), for relatively slightly longer construction time. They're also goddamn indestructible and shoot at prepostrous ranges, making them ideal for protecting carriers.

Battlecruisers have smaller hullsize than Battleships, noticiably cheaper and quicker to build and greatly faster but aren't critically weaker compared to Battleships. This makes two Battlecruisers supporting the Super-Heavy Battleship an ideal solution for the Carrier fleet.

Having a large number of Interceptors is a good idea, because Naval Bombers and Tactical Bombers can be dangerous to your fleets, and the enemy might have Interceptors of their own which could neutralize your CAGs.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
:salute:

OK will hold the training of marines until I'll get to 5 brigades per division.

Right now I'm planning to use 2 carriers plus a mix of battlecruisers and light cruisers per fleet.

Can you expand hangars on already existing carriers? Or is it two squadrons per carrier for them forever?
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
No need for that, you can add brigades into divisions aftewards.

As to the Navy, don't croup anything heavier than a CL with carriers, as then the naval-combat algorithm often places the task-force too close to the enemy. So just group 3-4 CV's with 6-8 CL's and go rape the japs. For shore bombardment, group your BBs and BCs and CAs with DDs (or CLs if you can spare the industry). DDs are better for ASW but as Vaarna said, in fleet combat they go down like two-bit hookers - though they are quite quick to replace. SHBB's are useless in vanilla as they don't gain tech-advantages so SHBB'38 is made obsolete by BB'41. Battleships already can take some serious punishment. Watch the hull score - I wouldn't go above 10% if possible but most of my naval experience comes from Atlantic/Mediterranean and I know that Pacific is bit different.

If you ignore CAs and BCs you can save with research (BCs especially are pretty useless). Watch out for land-based naval bombers, Japan usually has at least a dozen of them and they can rape a CV-TF if you don't pay attention.

As to land units, 3 line + 2 supporting is a safe choice as Vaarna said, though other viable versions exists. If Japan has conquered most of China, investing into tank corps will be useful so in that case 2 arm, 1 mec + 2 sp.art would be the winning choice. Replace mec with mot if you want to save a little with supply - which is always the bottleneck for US. Especially for China, though it's also important for Japan (and Europe naturally), do capture all the ports as quickly as possible to help with the supply.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
GarfunkeL, your tank divisions don't have engineers. That's a major issue anywhere, since without them tanks are fucked by bad terrain. Which is what most of China is. Tanks without Engineers aren't useful, imo, outside of fighting in France, Britain or Germany where Plains are everywhere and front is limited.

I'm not sure if this is different due to ICE, but in my experience it's better to be prepared for enemy in your face than rely on carriers being far away. In my previous Germany campaign (ICE), the Super-Heavy Battleship Grossdeutchland actually destroyed almost as many ships as the most succesful Carrier, and kept the Carriers themselves unharmed.


Also, I guess it's good to point out that doctrine is even more important in HoI3 than it was in HoI2, and it's made further important by the model upgrades being mostly linear instead of the insane upward curve HoI2 would have late game. As a Great Power, if you are able you'll want to research all Land Doctrines (except the Militia stuff), because of the decisive effect they can have. Similarly, Supply Organization, Supply Transit, Civil Defense and Basing are paramount in their importance, because they allow you to keep your armies moving and reorganizing faster than the enemy while leaving more IC to be used elsewhere. Also, keep in mind that ONLY provinces with naval bases can receive supply convoys, so don't land on islands without them.


Also, it's better to have a technologically superior navy than a numerically superior one. For one, it saves you time building it, but due to how positioning works in HoI3 two or three task forces of the latest 1945+ technology and doctrine can utterly defeat the entire Royal Navy, as numbers can't be brought to bear in a single battle (each hull point in a fleet or on your side in a battle above a certain limit gives hefty penalties to your positioning.

Also, with your navy and air force it's a good idea to specialize (as it is with the army as well, but to a lesser extent there). The only mandatory air force is the single-engine techs and doctrines for Interceptors. But if you have a navy, you'll want to make sure your CAGs are top of the line as well. A lot of that tech coincides with Tactical Bombers, which are the best combat support planes.

GarfunkeL, I do stand by my statement that BCs are worth more than they seem. Their fighting power and hull point ratio is very excellent for carrier task force building. But I agree, Heavy Cruisers are useless.

It's also good to point out that ASW is almost entirely about protecting your convoys in HoI3. Convoys are a lot more important this time around, but submarines are also much weaker in direct combat. Well, at least they're cheap.


When using IC, it's good to build large batches, and as many of the same type as you can, so you maximize your Practical skill gains for the unit. This is especially important for ships, since the second batch will be immensily faster after you've built those first two carriers.

EDIT: If the invincible Nippon has conquered China, you will need a large land force in order to cover the front. At least two Corps of tanks and an Army Group of infantry divisions. Taking the Japanese mainland is a priority, as their industry and leadership is mostly based there. I would suggest invading simultaniously from Korea, Shanghai and Hong Kong with large forces dedicated to each to force the Japanese to split their most likely smaller forces between multiple fronts. Korean invasion would push for the mountain range between Korea and Manchuria and establish a defensive line there. Shanghai invasion force makes a limited advance aimed at taking ports and then to force that Japanese to deploy over a larger front. Hong Kong landing would be the primary offensive, with several Army Groups of infantry supported by the entirety of US Tanks available. The likely coastal Japanese forces between Hong Kong and Shanghai are to be cut off by a blitz by the Tank Corps, which is to be guarded and aided by a simultanious uniform advance by infantry, and infantry must guard the wake of the tanks in order to prevent Japs breaking out.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
I'm still not entirely clear on how land combat works - by my understanding you line up the 'combat' brigades up to the maximum width of the battle (between 10 and 20 I believe) with all remainders going in reserve. The combat brigades on each side then take turns dealing damage to one another, sometimes one will retreat and then a reserve brigade can move forward.

But what do support brigades do? Do they add their figures onto units in the front? How does their defensiveness and toughness come into play? How are they damaged?
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
A division fights as a whole, so support brigades add to all the values of the division including defensiveness and toughness. Support divisions proportionally smaller damage, and their own Softness influences this.

The standard front width is 10, which allows divisions to participate until the total unit width value they have causes the front to be full. Different brigades have different unit width, for example prior to Spearhead doctrine being researched all tank brigades have a width of 2, and after Large Formations is researched Militia have a width of 0,5. The common width is 1 though.

An important element to consider is that the more brigades you have in a single province, the higher the penalty. Full chain of command and the Human Wave technology can almost eliminate this penalty. Reserves also influence this penalty, meaning that you can't just outlast your enemy with 100% success.

When you attack from three or more directions, the Front Width increases to 15. Each additional direction afterwards increases the Front Width by additional 5. The enemy will also receive an increasing penalty (10% increases) from envelopment.

Now, this means it's obvious you want to attack from multiple directions at once when facing tough resistance. Not only does this allow you to bring massive firepower to bear and inflict great casualties, but it also minimizes stacking penalty on your part. Personally, I don't use reserves in combat, but rather just bring in new divisions to the attack if need be.

A major advantage in using multiple directions of attack is also the fact that it's the key to making breakthroughs. The common cautious full front advance is to make a "rolling" advance. You just make supported attacks on each of the enemy positions in turn until all your divisions have advanced, then start it again. With luck the enemy will rarely have time to recover and vast distances are easily taken. This is not going to create any pockets, but being capable of that is important when driving the Red Army before you in the plains of Russia. Eventually your superior speeds can lead to the enemy falling behind as well, thus eradicating units.
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
Fired the game up for the first time today, It's rather intimidating, even coming from just playing around with HoI2 mods a few days ago. Even the tech tree alone is more challenging to comprehend.

Trying to decide which faction to play atm, I'm thinking Finland will be pretty interesting, get to fight with all sorts and I've played Japan/UK/Germany quite a bit in HoI2.
 

GarfunkeL

Racism Expert
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
Location
Insert clever insult here
Not sure how shafted the minors are in the latest SF-patch. Playing Germany is the easy choice because you don't have an empire to worry about and you got plenty of IC and leadership. You can ignore most of the naval stuff, especially in your first game, and some of the air stuff like strategic bombers.

Vaarna, I wouldn't group anything heavier than a CL with carriers because the capital ships want to get close to the enemy so they can engage them while the carriers want to remain far away and allow the CAG to pummel the enemy - this leads into a tug'o'war between the two which can, at worst case, sink your carriers or damage them. North Sea especially often has bad enough weather (plus land-based air cover) so carriers aren't the supreme leaders that they are on Pacific.

As to engineers and tanks, IIRC the engineer brigades slow the tanks down (unless ICE changed that) and as long as you are fighting on mostly open terrain the extra punch from SP-ART is a better choice. I wouldn't give them engineers unless I know before hand that I'll have to fight in shitty terrain - usually you have enough infantry to dedicate for forests and swamps and river-crossings, allowing you to focus your tanks solely on good terrain.

In any case, Skyway, the Nippon holdings in China don't matter much - the Home Islands are the priority. Get them and you will gut both their IC and leadership. But as Vaarna said, always have ships in the pipeline to maximize the output. Even if you don't need any ships at this moment, it'll take years to build them so it's better to "waste" IC and have a BB and a CV or two there always.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Destroid said:
Fired the game up for the first time today, It's rather intimidating, even coming from just playing around with HoI2 mods a few days ago. Even the tech tree alone is more challenging to comprehend.

That's my feeling exactly. Even more - I didn't know what to do in the game.
No I mean I need to build forces and beat the crap out of my random neighbour the question is in which sequence or something like that.

Still the game gives you so much to play with and yet I can't help but feel that while HoI3 is probably the most complex game of Paradox to date - it's also the most limiting. At best you can just gear up for a single war with a single country by lowering your neutrality and upping their threat and then you are just lost in the worldwide meatgrinder.

I wish there was some mod that didn't make countries already pre-aligned to three factions so much up to a point that it still goes a historical way. Not speaking about the preset historical events.

Trying to decide which faction to play atm, I'm thinking Finland will be pretty interesting, get to fight with all sorts and I've played Japan/UK/Germany quite a bit in HoI2.

Finland will have their ass handed to them by the Glorious Motherland 100% of the time here, except in my game even after capturing the whole Finland Soviet Union didn't go as far as annexing it. In fact it's quite passive. Japs have beaten the crap out of commie China and Sovok did nothing. It didn't even invade Poland or Baltic.

GarfunkeL said:
In any case, Skyway, the Nippon holdings in China don't matter much - the Home Islands are the priority. Get them and you will gut both their IC and leadership. But as Vaarna said, always have ships in the pipeline to maximize the output. Even if you don't need any ships at this moment, it'll take years to build them so it's better to "waste" IC and have a BB and a CV or two there always.

I already have quite a number of battleships I can't put in any carrier fleet so I'm planning on using them as a backup. The pipelines are of course set to churn out more ships (light cruisers right now).

I fucked up my tech-tree progression a bit and I'm building marines with engineers only now (1940). Still they will be ready before the historical date.

What I don't get is why is it so hard to start a war as USA now? When I read HoI3 (as in vanilla) reviews/hints/etc they were saying that you just send 10 spies to increase enemy threat and use 10 to lower your neutrality and you can have a war with japs right in '40. Well I did just that and their threat level is about 35 now. Did Paradox do something to it in SF?

I even made republicans come to power and they should like them some war :M
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
I think the threat increasing spy mission was toned down in patches.

Also, in the current version Finland is not a good choice to play as. All minors had their Leadership values reduced so low that they can't do anything (Finland has 3 leadership, most have worse), and IC/Manpower is so low you can't even have the historical army size.

However, ICE has put some effort into Finland as well, so you can use them there. The lot of minors was further improved when I gave them a +25% leadership modifier triggered by not being Germany/USA/Soviets/Japan/UK/France/Italy. Helps Hungary and Romania a lot. I also had a bit of fun and gave Finland a Greater Finland decision which can be used if they're allied with Germany or part of the axis while controlling Tallinn, Murmansk and Leningrad, with the decision giving cores in Ingria, Estonia, Finnmark and Thornedalia while forcing Finland to join the Axis.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
I think the threat increasing spy mission was toned down in patches.

Why did they do it? It's stupid.
With such an enormous amount of tactical possibilities you can have in this game and yet Paradox still forces you to do it the historical way and limits what you can do hard.

This is actually quite gamebreaking for me now because I also wanted to have land wars with Mexico and Canada but the game doesn't let me do it, pushing to an inevitable conflict in the Pacific.

ICE is a mod right? Does it remove or at least softens the historical limitations enough to have some freedom? At least on a par with Vicky 2
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
By my understanding, ICE mods the game to be more historical, while the Historical Plausibility Project (HPP) develops more of the 'what if' scenarios. Although I think I read somewhere that HPP actually makes it harder for neutral countries to get into the war, especially USA so you might want to skip that one.
 

jonnypolen

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Messages
271
Hey, great thread so far! I have just finished my third try as Norway, and as usual things are going straight to hell. At least now I am able to give the Germans some resistance, but I am still getting raped.

Is there some way for Norway to join the Axis? I have tried to allign the country to the Axis, but I'm having a hard time lowering the neutrality.

Also, if anybody has any strategy tips for a beginner; feel free to share them!
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
What can you tell me about HPP?

Apart from what Destroid already said of course

I'm planning to finish the game as kwas and then go for a second round with some mod that makes it less limited in terms of being a-historical
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,721
Yes.
Imagine quadrupling number of provinces and significantly more units, also the research results look more reasonable. (No longer you are researching one aircraft twice.)

HOI2 had a style, and you can play some smaller countries well. HOI3 would probably need one more expansion to feel more right. (Playing as Brazil, or Argentine means you would lower your neutrality... ... ... ... ... ... and then declare ware against an another country, and in few months defend against giant stack of doom from US. Basically you are doing only research and some procurement, and then shits hits the fan and you are forced to do a lot of stuff quickly.)
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
HoI3 SF also feels very limiting. So far - zero a-historical events (apart from Soviets not invading Poland in 39 provided there was such event in the game). It's 41 and the only difference was that Hitler attacked USSR 2 weeks later. And the war with Japs is definitely coming.

You also can't just go and declare war. In fact if you are a democratic country you can't declare war at all before WW2 starts.

Would be nice to know how many marines are enough to stick it to the jap though
 

Destroid

Arcane
Joined
May 9, 2007
Messages
16,628
Location
Australia
I've been reading thisHPP LP, in which the player is Germany and so far things have been quite ahistoric, mostly stemming from the players decision not to invade Poland in 39 but continue a build up until 41 or so.
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Yes but that's player's choice. It is possible to do the same in vanilla.


I'm afraid to invade that shit. Looks like a fortress. I sense the airplane rape of epic proportions.

41fa5d722f0fd2bdf9195149180df446.jpg


Best I can do right now is deliver two marine corps there, 5 divisions each, 5 brigades each.

More transports are in the pipeline and the 3rd marine corps is soon to be at full strength.

But I'm not sure if that's enough


I didn't even see any jap carriers yet. Best I had is some battles with their fleets here and there where I sunk a lot of something small and a single something big. And then their fleet ran off somewhere. Also lost 1 light cruiser.

Currently have 8 carriers plus escorts in a form of light cruisers, battleships and battlecruisers operating in the area. Brits also patrol with a small fleet in the middle of Pacific.
 

dbx

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
3,897
MetalCraze said:
HoI3 SF also feels very limiting. So far - zero a-historical events (apart from Soviets not invading Poland in 39 provided there was such event in the game). It's 41 and the only difference was that Hitler attacked USSR 2 weeks later. And the war with Japs is definitely coming.

Sometimes is better that way.
Or would you prefer something like this :smug: ?
n8tn2da1uwtg.jpg
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
MetalCraze said:
Yes but that's player's choice. It is possible to do the same in vanilla.


I'm afraid to invade that shit. Looks like a fortress. I sense the airplane rape of epic proportions.

41fa5d722f0fd2bdf9195149180df446.jpg
Have you encountered naval bombers yet? If you haven't it's likely they don't have them.

Now, what I'd say you have one obvious path of attack to the Home Islands: Nagasaki. The terrain appears to be Plains, and there are no coastal fortifications there. The naval base in Shikoku is also a good target. Both of them enable you to station Interceptors there, and in case there's a surprise mass of Nips waiting for you in the main island, you can prevent their counter-attack with your navy.

Still, I reckon you can spare a year making preparations for the land force if necessary.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom