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(history) WTF ITALY.

Dayyālu

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I must say, this makes me feel sorry for the Germans.
Just imagine trying to wage a war, coordinating some efforts with your allies and THIS is what you have to deal with...
What do you even tell to your superiors? "Yeah, about our Italian friends..."

Funny enough, modern day Germany kinda feels the same way about modern day Italy - just replace war with economics :(
Hilarious times ahead!

:lol:

Ok, that's a very funny piece, and I posted it because it's funny. But there's a caveat! Zanussi fled Rome with the King and abandoned his own in 1943. It was in his utmost interest to paint the Italian military in shambles and utterly ineffective, in order to justify the surrender. It's widely recognized that during the African campaign Rommel dumped all his failures on the Italians, who, thanks to a frankly chaotic command, could not properly manage the situation. And of course the memoirs of the Italian men in Africa are far less publicized than the very romantic (and Britain-built) image of Rommel that Montgomery pushed, in an effort to have his Annibal.

Sources, and memoirs, are always written for a reason, hidden or not, and skepticism is useful.

Interestingly enough, there's much material about what the Italians thought of the Germans, both civilians and soldiers: sadly I don't have at home the books so I have to go through memory. OVRA (the Fascist secret services) mantained quite a good record on what the "common people" thought of the alliance and of the German people in general: surprisingly enough, I could copy paste your message "Funny enough, modern day Italy kinda feels the same way about modern day Germany - just replace war with economics". In their defense, Germans were admittedly atrocious allies, but for other peculiarities.

Civilians admired the (relatively) superior German standard of living, their (relatively) superior industrial power, and their military skills: as allies the Germans were considered soulless, arrogant and merciless drones devoid of creativity and human feelings, and that an eventual German victory would have been little better than a British one. A joke for the troops in the Soviet Union was that the men who fought in Russia left Italy liking the Germans and hating the Russians, and came back home hating the Germans and liking the Russians (bar those who "enjoyed" Soviet hospitality in a prison camp. And even they liked it better than German prison camps :lol:!)

Stereotypes! They never change. 80 years and we're still at step one.
 

thesheeep

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surprisingly enough, I could copy paste your message "Funny enough, modern day Italy kinda feels the same way about modern day Germany - just replace war with economics"
Really? How curious!

The usual German media is painting Italy as just one step away from financial collapse. I thought: "Well, that might just be the German side". But since I moved to Finland, and follow more international news, I have to say that is pretty much how everyone paints Italian economics.
EU-wide (I try to focus on EU-centric news outlets). It always has that tone of "Please don't collapse, please don't collapse, please don't collapse.".

I haven't heard anyone claiming German economy being in shambles, just the usual "too much export".
I would have understood feeling that way about politics, education, military (as Germany is pretty lacking in all of these). But not economics.
 

rezaf

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There's a fair amount of historians in the 'Dex (some professionals like JarlFrank or Garfunkel, or well-informed people like Lone Wolf), interestingly enough. I was an historian by education, but you know, I don't live in some kind of North European Welfare Paradise and I prefer to eat sometimes and so I got a Real Job instead

Yeah, but I wasn't implying you should quit your day job. A podcast isn't usually a main profession.
I'd imagine there ought to be some folks who successfully do that stuff as a profession, but it's certainly not a business model.
The guys who do the WW1 series on youtube come to mind. Or Dan Carlin. Recommendations, anyone?

Lemme find some interesting\outright weird threads. I remember some.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

I remember how glad I was to be given T-26 and Char 1 bis in Italian campaign of Panzer Corps; both were miles above the M11/39, M13/40 and M14/41 I was forced to fight with. Still I renember Italian fighter planes, Alpini and Bersalieri units were surprisingly effective, so its not like Italy could not fare better when lead by competent officers.

Heh, I was going to point out Panzer General / Panzer Corps as a response to thesheep 's remark about "allies such as these". Even as a player of a computer game, I always cringed when part of the map was being held by italian allies. First step, of course, was to divert some of my own troops there in order to prevent a breakthrough of the enemy...

surprisingly enough, I could copy paste your message "Funny enough, modern day Italy kinda feels the same way about modern day Germany - just replace war with economics"
Really? How curious! (...)

The thing with modern day economy is that some german politicians are still under the delusion that it makes any sense to try and stabilize debt when in reality, we're far, FAR beyond the point of no return. Southern europeans shrug and continue to live their lives in peace as long as possible, but the germans ... it's just a matter of personality.
There is a funny story about how it went when with a big german car producer (I think it was Opel) they introduced flexible hours (this was back in the day when foreign workers where still many italians that came as "gastarbeiter"). After a month, all the germans had 20 hours saved up on their time accounts. The italians? They were all 20 hours in the minus. :P
 

nobre

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When people dismiss and laugh about Italy's WW2 performance they make two major mistakes.

1) They think of Italy as a Great Power, in the same league as USSR, Germany, USA and Britain. Italy wasn't in that league, not by a long shot. I would rate Italy as a regional power, above the likes of Hungary and Romania but definitely below France and Japan.

2) They keep comparing Italy to Germany as if the latter is the norm. It isn't. Germany's performance in WW2 truly is exceptional, especially in the early years, while remaining more than solid in the later years. The only other nation who matches Germany is USSR. Those two really brought their 'A game' so to speak.

That being said, a lot of funny stuff happened in Italy before and during WW2, but that's also the case in Britain, France, Germany and USSR.
 

Dayyālu

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I would have understood feeling that way about politics, education, military (as Germany is pretty lacking in all of these). But not economics.

Pardon. I expressed myself badly. The "switch war with economics" was apt for the Italians also: the germans are superior nowadays in economical management, but for some fuzzy stereotype they are inferior as a "people". Likewise, in early WW2 admired for war and for industry, but disdain for "national character".

Yeah, but I wasn't implying you should quit your day job. A podcast isn't usually a main profession.
I'd imagine there ought to be some folks who successfully do that stuff as a profession, but it's certainly not a business model.
The guys who do the WW1 series on youtube come to mind. Or Dan Carlin. Recommendations, anyone?

Sadly, none. I don't follow podcast or history youtubers ;_;

The only Youtube resource I follow that gives me extra data on Italians is Forgotten Weapons, that did some fairly interesting videos on Italian WW2 small arms development.







Heh, I was going to point out Panzer General / Panzer Corps as a response to thesheep 's remark about "allies such as these". Even as a player of a computer game, I always cringed when part of the map was being held by italian allies. First step, of course, was to divert some of my own troops there in order to prevent a breakthrough of the enemy...

Don't tell me. I raged for a good ten minutes when the fucks at Graviteam did Tank Warfare: Tunisia 1943 and THERE ARE ONLY GERMANS. *RAAARGH*

Interestingly enough, Italy on the tabletop, for the historical-conscious gamer, isn't as terrible as it may appear at first. Many of the problems of the Italians are at a substantially higher level than the tactical one, and even with subpar equipment you can get far, as the quality of the men wasn't as meme-worthy as the Britons like to paint them (well, maybe not the Coastal Divisions). Italy had (and has) quite a few "traditional" units that fought well, and Italians fought in many theatres against a wide variety of foes (from the Union to the Western Allies to the Germans themselves after 1943). Of course, everything goes to crap after 1942 as the tech gap becomes insane, but that's the same jazz that every non-German Axis nation had to face, Japan included.

1) They think of Italy as a Great Power, in the same league as USSR, Germany, USA and Britain. Italy wasn't in that league, not by a long shot. I would rate Italy as a regional power, above the likes of Hungary and Romania but definitely below France and Japan.

The last of the Great Powers or the First of the Regional Powers?

:lol::lol::lol:

I always felt Japan and Italy shared some weird common destiny. Only Japan had top-tier preparations and a frankly less messy organization, and thus made quite a dent initially. But geography is a bitch, and infantry-focused nations with little industrial capabilities share a common destiny.
 

Raghar

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well at least we have football.

ahahahahahahah sigh.
Don't forget PASTA.

BTW one of think I wonder about is Italian cuisine. It looks like Italy, which should have nearly no problems to make a lot of cattle in pre-industrial era, somehow had expensive and scarce meat...
 

rezaf

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1) They think of Italy as a Great Power, in the same league as USSR, Germany, USA and Britain. Italy wasn't in that league, not by a long shot.

Unrefutable historical evidence classifies Italy as a great power, though. Which is to say, they're one of the default starting nations in Hearts of Iron.

2) They keep comparing Italy to Germany as if the latter is the norm. It isn't. Germany's performance in WW2 truly is exceptional, especially in the early years, while remaining more than solid in the later years.

Funny enough, Germany itself only truly embraced gearing it's economy towards war by the time the war was basically lost already - in 1942/43, headed by Albert Speer.
Another interesting tidbit is that germanys economic output was greater in April 45 than it was in 1939 (or maybe it was 1936). Despite all the bombing, which failed to properly damage the industry, thus the allies switched to terror bombing aimed at demoralizing civilians.
 

Raghar

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That's what I don't properly understand. Why didn't they industrialize?
Italy had two "minor" waves of industrialization before true development (post WW2, thanks fo foreign capital) and both focused on basic needs in the northern regions. You had a basic industry of textiles and heavy industry, but it was small and a weird blend of artisan models, paternalistic capitalism and pseudo-German systems.
They didn't need foreign investment. Nothing prevented rich in Italy to invest theirs own money into economy and proper automation. It's weird they didn't spend more effort. Well Hetalia is talking about two Italies. North more stringent brother, and South happy easygoing dummy who loves pasta. I guess they were not exactly united, but I remember it's at least 300 years when Moravians threw tantrum last time. Well, all that socialistic education about advanced western countries...

This has more to do with Italian aptitude for self-education. During Roman era people were proud to teach theirs children a lot more than a standard education. Seems this tradition completely disappeared from Italy.

Utter gibberish. Comparing Roman tradition and Italian education in the 20th century is like comparing Prussian military tradition with the Germanic warriors of the 2nd century A.D.. Makes no sense. Alien societies with nothing in common, not even genetics. In regard for recruits with little technical know-how, problem was similar for all the "lesser industralized" powers, like the Union, Japan, Romania and others. When a tractor is a rarity, and literacy is limited, you get what you get. Also, Italy was significantly crippled by a education model that ironically enough always focused on the humanities: venerating the ancient is all good and fine, but a man schooled in the classics makes a poor artillery officer if he can barely understand a range table.
A lot of societies are keeping tradition of quality home education and self-education, and these traditions are kept hundreds of years. Throwing money for school titles is a sign of corrupted society, or a society where rich made barriers to protect high ranking jobs for theirs children.

BTW how can a person who spend effort to read War and Peace be unable to learn simple stuff like artillery tables?

But it looks like that fascism remedied some problems caused by education system tailored for rich only.

Frankly both Chinas fared better. The number of warlords Chiang kai-shek was forced to negotiate with, popular support he needed, all that shit was what ultimately prevented easy win, even with Russian help. In addition, his government siphoned away nearly all money he got from US. Mao on the other hand managed to pull out from nearly impossible situation, and with help of capable people in Communist China government he managed to rebound from bottom.

I think if he had enough courage, he could force industry to make proper automation, and quality tanks. Less menial workers, more machines... Italian manufactured... That would help him a lot in his position.

I am ignorant in Chinese history, so I can't compare. I dimly know that Mao's industrialization was a shitstorm of epic proportions, but that's it. Again, Fascist italy wasn't the SU. Because a state is totalitarian doesn't means it's omnipotent. There's basic political support to obtain, and the laws of economy are always on for everyone. You need resources, know-how, foreign funding, machinery....
I talked about how Chinese handled multiple powerful groups that were hesitating to cooperate and was known for money embezzlement. Basically, they were able to enforce theirs demands to corporation owners and were able to prevent corporation owners in meddling in war. Both sides of China were still able to handle war better than Italy, even if Chiang Kai-Shek said his effort was doomed because it rot from within.


The problem is that even minor powers like Hungary or Czechland managed to leverage their knowledge and get up some interesting stuff: Italy crippled itself by keeping in production shitty models due to political corruption.
It's not surprise for czech republic, even when country was shiter, and rich basically ruled country, they still retained theirs large military industry, and were able to innovate. It's not about number of people, it's about smart people who's ancestors lived in the country for 1200 years and were willing to innovate to ensure better quality of living for theirs children. (And do more than they are paid for.)

I legit tried to watch Girls Und Panzer. It's incomprehensible. I firmly believe that Eng. Giuseppe Rosini (the man that developed ALL WW2 italian tanks and armoured cars) would find awesome that his works are now employed as background for scantily dressed anime ladies. At least they don't kill anyone that way.

Girsl und Panzer are about enjoying watching tanks and gunery fire. If you are not about tanks jumping around while doing sport with reduced power ammunition under psychotic commander, then that anime isn't for you. But, one of tank commanders is a history buff, with small problem of making small mistakes during her speeches. Which caused rest of the crew to become INCREDIBLY history educated, thus they are going crazy and correcting her misspoken stuff. It has also very nice parodies about real world stuff. For example they made THE BEST version of Yuki no Shingun song.

Hetalia on the other hand is web manga based on shock caused by reading about WWII Italia inability to do ANYTHING right.
 

tindrli

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So, the age-old question of why Italy sucked in WW2. The question must be approched properly, because the reasons where many and interlocked.

First of all, there is a huge tradition of mostly anglo-saxon propaganda that has to be reconsidered: the Italian fighting man was on the level of most soldiers in the conflict, and when in a proper situation with proper support managed to push his weight. Italians weren't worse at war than the Rumenians, the Greeks or even the British (early war), if we consider the individual soldiers. It's simply that the single soldier was put into the shittiest situation.

Let's start with the basics: Italy was a poor country, only barely industrialized. Even Germany wasn't well-industrialized compared to the US or even the Union: Italy was an agricultural country with no natural resources , ferociously dependant on foreign import for most of the needs of modern industrialization and with a population that was mostly illiterate. Recruits with technical aptitude were rare. This means that Italian weaponry was more expensive, slower to produce and often of inferior quality if compared to others. But we'll discuss the equipment later.

One thing that the backwardness of Italian society worsened was a clear social divide between the ranks. Italy has never been good in being "unified", and it has been even worse at being a coherent Nation State. There was, and there still is, a ferocious sense of local belonging amongst most Italians: and the Italian officers had in most cases nothing but contempt for the "country bumpkins" that were in the ranks. Italian officers developed into a system that richly rewarded "office warriors", meaning Italy had a shitton of administrative officers and lacked trained field officers and NCOs, and the reserve dumped people unfit for service. This meant that for the field officers you had people that lacked training, grit and sense of responsability: and the higher ranks were mostly promoted out of family connections or political support. Furthermore, they were a different social class: Italian officers enjoyed the perks of their rank, had different food and lodgings, and that caused negative morale consequences for the rank-and-file. R&R instead for the common ranks was atrocious (some men in North Africa or in the Balkans fought for three years straight with no relief or pauses). In short, Italian officers were badly trained bourgeoisie that often lacked the loyalty of their own men if not for military discipline, a thing harshly enforced. Furthermore, Italian society, despite twenty years of Fascism, utterly lacked the motivation for "total war" and openly despised the Germans: OVRA reports are an amusing read as the common view of the German Ally was terrible. Admired for their technical prowess, considered brutal barbarians in all other regards. With such allies...

Wait, you can ask, how the heck Mussolini in TWENTY YEARS failed to build enough support for a good war and for his regime? The thing is two-fold: first, the Fascist Regime had the support of the population in a very.... Italian way, so as long as the population got enough gibsmedat everything was good. When that failed to keep up only the True Believers stuck with the Duce, a stunning minority. Second, the Fascist Regime was outwardly powerful: in reality, Mussolini had a stunning amount of problems caused by opposing powers inside Italy: the King himself, the Church, the industrial powers, his own party organization.... the propaganda painted the Duce as an all-powerful figure, but in reality you had this schizophrenic situation where everyone technically followed Mussolini but at the same time the real power of the Fascist State was limited. Lemme explain with an example: tank production. Italian tanks were shit. FIAT-ANSALDO , the main industrial conglomerate that built Italian tanks, managed for more than 15 years to keep an iron grip on Italian tank production sinking all opposition, be it Czechs, other italian designers or even German models: the Italian leadership knew that the product was shit, but "nothing could be done" as you could not directly oppose FIAT-ANSALDO because if you bought other tanks then FIAT would have closed their factories and you would have gotten strikes and a loss of popularity that Mussolini could ill-afford. Yes, i'm literally telling you that the fascist State bought shitty weapons because it was hostage of corporate interests. Same applies with the Navy and the Air Force, with a bunch of hilarious examples of subpar prototypes or corruption scandals.

It's weird, but ... Mussolini was the main power everyone referred to (the biggest strategical mistakes he did single-handedly) but at the same time his power to really influence the Italian society was incredibly limited, propaganda boasts aside. Furthermore, the fascist party had never managed to do a proper "revolution" despite claims: until 1943 and the RSI, Fascism pretty much protected the old elites, worsening the traditional italian problems of backwardness, corruption and nepotism. Scientific research and weapon development were secondary to political and family considerations: for example, Italy threw out a shitton of bomber prototypes, most of them clearly unviable, just to give chances for embezzlement. You can say that all countries had such things (the "feudal" industrial system of Nazi Germany or even the initial crony corruption inside the SU) but the problem in Italy was so common that it actively fucked up weapon design and production.

Furthermore, Italy lacked resources or stockpiles for a modern war. Italy in 1940 had already burned considerable resources into colonial expeditions (Ethiopia) or in the Spanish Civil War, with thousands of trucks and hundreds of artillery pieces sent to fight campaigns that had little impact for Italy itself. The commercial blockade that the Allied powers forced on Italy started strangling the war economy almost immediately, and the Fascist State was ill-organized: they failed to plan for such a blockade, and if someone planned he wasn't heard because no one wanted to tell Mussolini the bad news. This takes us to another peculiar thing: Mussolini had a lot of limits, but in the end everyone deferred to him for the ultimate decisions, and Mussolini utterly lacked a trained cabinet, being surrounded by self-serving sycophants that inevitably failed to tell him the truth of the situation.

So, for the basics, you had a poor country with no resources , shitty allies, and a schizophrenic political system. That can't go wrong, no?

If we want to 'sperg on equipment, the Italian Army had hilarious problems with their equipment. Their logistics were a mess, meaning the troops were often underfed, under-equipped and under-supplied: not particularly their fault though, as the ammunition needs of italian weapons were a mess, with five to nine different calibers employed by a stunning array of borderline-functional weapons (the infamous Breda 30 LMG or the Brixia mortars). Grain loads for the guns could not be trusted (as the ammo factories had shitty checks), meaning that the already underpowered Carcano rifles had unrealiable performance. Sure, Italy had some great guns, like the MAB SMG, but this takes us to another of the basic problems of the Italian industry: it was underdeveloped. Let's take the MAB. It's a great SMG, sure, if we compare it to a PPs-43 or something. I am going from memory here, so the true data is probably different: a single MAB required more than forty hours of work done by a skilled artisan, while you could equip a squad with the same man-hours for PPs SMGs: Italian production was badly organized and tragically slow, meaning that even good designs could not be produced in numbers or replaced fast enough (case in point, the Royal Air Force). And often you had shitty designs that were kept into production for political or "Whatever we don't have anything else" reasons.

Tanks were developed by a single guy. I am not joking. All the Italian tanks were developed by a single man in a single office at the FIAT-ANSALDO, and whatever he made got okayed because reasons, fuck performance. Sum that with subpar tech and you had those beautiful riveted tankettes with the worst engines you can think of. Sure, Italian doctrine didn't focus on tanks much (it was commonly believed that the war would have been fought like in WW1, mountain front) but they were still crap.

Navy was borderline adequate (good training, some good units) but the command (SUPERMARINA) was scared of everything and lived under a costant psychological inferiority against the British. Think of..... I dunnow, Navy depression: "We can't win we can't even try if we try we're gonna lose" and thus they lost or did atrocious mistakes or suffered hilarious reversals like Taranto. The only bright spot for the Italian Navy were the frogmen, but that's a desperation weapon.

The Air force would require several paragraphs, so whatever. Let us say that it wasn't terrible, but it lacked staying power, Italian training wasn't adequate, and the Italian machines were often horribly under-armed. Go play War Thunder or something, and check how many machineguns the Italians get. Two at best, and with shitty fire rates and ammo loads. And the Italian air industry could not replace combat losses.

Do you know that Italy had an equivalent of the SS? The MVSN "Milizie Volontarie per la Sicurezza Nazionale", or commonly known as the "Camice Nere". Most of them had horrible equipment, terrible logistics, and were composed of old men that performed horribly under fire. There was a reason Hitler purged the SA as "unreliable", but Mussolini could not afford such things, so he got the shit-tier of political military units. Some of 'em weren't bad (youth units in particular) but pearls before swine.

And at last, the strategical problems. See, now we have a poor country with bad industry. What we are going to do, focus on a few theatres were we can leverage our limited strength?

No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.

Now I'm fucking tired and I've sperged enough on the subject. If you have specific questions, go wild, if I can I'll reply. All typos and mistakes are mine.



now that you explained all this i think they did GREAT in WW2!! MASTER LEVEL considering the shit you put on them
 

Stavrophore

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Idk about HoI 2 since ive played it years ago, so my memories are blurred, but HoI 4 is piss poor easy even on elite difficulty. Italy? No problem at all conquering Africa and France. Then you just invent shit as it go, since that's all in the fantasy land compared to real history.
 

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I am ignorant in Chinese history, so I can't compare. I dimly know that Mao's industrialization was a shitstorm of epic proportions, but that's it. Again, Fascist italy wasn't the SU. Because a state is totalitarian doesn't means it's omnipotent. There's basic political support to obtain, and the laws of economy are always on for everyone. You need resources, know-how, foreign funding, machinery.....

Mao's industrialization is a classic case of how NOT to do it. especially in the top down method instead or bottom up.

Badly mismanagement of lands and reallocation. The middle class landowners got a re-education campaign and strip of their lands. The top direct impossible and far-from-reality directives and demands. A typical example: Mao point at a swallow, the type that eat grains and worms and said: if there's less of them there's more harvest. So there's continent-wide hunting of swallows. Result: explosion of worm types that eat on rice stalk. less harvest. oops. The whole thing's no way near the level of Zimbabwe land crisis but nearly as famous.

Badly thought industrialization step. Step one is more iron right? We dont have enough iron smelting factory right? WHy not have EVERYONE building home-smelter and melt ores into iron for the fatherland? Because we would have a surplus of subpar, unusable irons that's very expensive to remelt, that's why.

The whole thing is not publicisized as much as it deserve mostly because. Well. I think it would illustrate how bad top-down policy fare against reality. So it's in the interests of governments to quietly whistle things away. They have their own top-down policies to think of, as well.
 

NJClaw

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No, we're Fascist Italy, we're going to send troops randomly around in Africa, in the Balkans and in Russia in a desperate attempt to ape the Germans to mantain internal support and international legitimacy. And thus you get from waging a parallel war (Greece and Africa) to be a subordinate of the Germans (Africa and the Balkans) to be a slave of the Germans (Russia, Italy, RSI). Because you sent your troops into situations they could only lose, and thus you start a negative spiral of self-crippling choices and political disasters. Italy in WW2 is the direct opposite of the concept of "concentration of forces": it was literally "dispersion of forces" at its best.
Posting here just to say that it's impossible to overstate the role that Italian incompetence played in the defeat of Germany in WW2.

In the Hitler and Mannerheim recording, if the available translation can be trusted, Hitler blames his failures on three factors:
- an underestimation of USSR armaments: he says that if someone had told him how many tanks the USSR actually had, he would have deemed him crazy;
- bad weather conditions that delayed the invasion of France;
- the Italian incompetence, that forced Germany to waste chunks of its forces in North Africa, Albania, and Greece.

"[...] at the same time we faced - I can frankly say it today, a grave misfortune, namely the weakness of Italy. Because of - first, the situation in North Africa, then second, because of the situation in Albania and Greece - a very big misfortune. We had to help. This meant for us, with one small stroke, first - the splitting of Luftwaffe, splitting our tank force while at the same time we were preparing in the east"

(this is the only available translation I found, I would love for a good-willed German-speaking codexer to translate the part at 5:31)



I mean, we basically won WW2. No need to thanks.
 

fizzelopeguss

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"So we had a match up of the German Pz-IIIs, at the time the mainstay of the German Armoured Forces, and our first M-13, a result of years of relentless work and study, the best of what our industry could make.

Speed test: at the same time, the German and the Italian tanks, from a starting line in the desert, should have ran towards the sea at full speed. But when the starting signal is given the four swastika-painted tanks immediately start at full speed: of our tanks, two fail to start wholesale, one manages to desperately advance for some meters before stopping, and the last one heroically manages to truck on at such a limited speed that it can barely ran half as fast as the German tanks.

Sharpshooting test: the four German tanks and the four Italian tanks open fire at the same time against the burned out hulk of a British Tank near the seaside. Well, I write "at the same time" but that can be applied only to the Panzers, that managed to mantain a more than adequate ratio of fire, while our M13 instead of the 6 shots allocated, thanks to unexpected jamming, barely 2-3 manage to hit the target. Well, 2-3 shots out of 24 isn't such a great result, isn't it?

I can't even describe the utter rage of General Roatta (another Chief of Defense Staff, this time in 1942) that without even stopping to talk with our tank officers (that had no guilt bar to have used such terrible weapons given by the High Command, managed by Roatta himself). Roatta fled the place blubbering to his entourage and swearing that he would never visited Rommel again and would have never stopped until he managed to give to the Italian Army an adequate tank. The first oath he kept, as he never saw Rommel again: the second one, he didn't kept, because despite all the effort our tanks were the same, or barely upgraded models, for all the remainder of the war."
I must say, this makes me feel sorry for the Germans.
Just imagine trying to wage a war, coordinating some efforts with your allies and THIS is what you have to deal with...
What do you even tell to your superiors? "Yeah, about our Italian friends..."

Funny enough, modern day Germany kinda feels the same way about modern day Italy - just replace war with economics :(
Hilarious times ahead!


This is the problem with krauts, and why they got their arses kicked. The overriding need to control their neighbours and shit on their allies, to such an extent they plundered the continent to fight a war they had no chance of winning.

Contrast with the British who sent death trap convoy to the soviets whilst their own were being sent to the bottom of the atlantic. Sharing the most advanced technology of the time with the yanks etc.

Thw interoperability between the western allies compared to the fuck fest that was the axis is staggering to say the least.
 

wwsd

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jun 16, 2011
Messages
7,688
Heh, I still play HoI2 with Armageddon and the SMEP mod sometimes. This tends to lead to a pretty historical path although the AI sometimes takes different event decisions and is otherwise basically your typical Paradox AI (Americans putting 20 divisions on Rhodes while landing 1 tank division in Southern France which gets destroyed, that kind of stuff).

Been a few years since I played Italy, but I did manage to assist the Germans well enough. I think I built IC early on to get an extra tech slot. Then in the Med it's important to protect those naval bombers, obviously. Not sure what I did with the navy as the (Free) French and British fleets are superior unless you invest massively. I can't remember what I did about Gibraltar to lock up the Med. In SMEP there is an event to get Spain to join the Axis, but I think that only fires when the USSR has surrendered. I did sort out North Africa pretty quickly, can't remember if I did a landing behind the lines to prevent the Brits from putting a large stack on El Alamein or Alexandria. Eventually it went all the way into Syria, Iraq, etc. and from there I was able to send mountaineers into the Caucasus and eventually helped the Germans get the Bitter Peace from the USSR, and helped the Japanese with India.

Note that in Armageddon the Japanese usually manage to crush the Chinese by 1940-41 and there are some gaps into India from there that the British don't defend, so they usually lose India only to have the Americans retake it later. I don't remember the SMEP event chain exactly, but I think Britain surrenders if the USSR has done so, the US is not in the war yet, and most of the Empire is lost as well as Gibraltar and Suez. But I'm a bit rusty on that. In any case, to me beating Britain and the USSR is the main victory condition when playing Italy. I don't think the German AI has it within itself to conquer America, nor can the US liberate Europe on its own. So I never played that game to the end, in fact I don't think I've ever played a game from 1936 to 1964 (!).

You actually have an advantage in HoI2 compared to the real world, seeing as there is no difference in unit types between countries, e.g. a 1941 Italian infantry division is as good as a German one, except for doctrine. Switching doctrines could be a good strategy if you have the tech teams to get a better branch. Or you can stick it out and eventually go for the Japanese Infiltration Assault branch, which gives you very strong infantry. Unlike in real life, it's probably possible for the Italian player in WW2 to conquer Yugoslavia and Greece relatively easily.

A gamey thing to do is join the Axis early on, profit from German tech blueprints, but then leave them before they invade Poland and only rejoin when the "On the Seine" event fires when Germany is getting close to defeating France.

Note you can save on infantry divisions by only having one or two on the beach provinces of the Italian mainland, and then some more in the central provinces that border multiple beach areas, set to "Reserve". What happens is when the Allies try to land in one of your beach provinces, those reserves will quickly move to the province to join the defence. That way you don't have to put 3 divisions on every beach.

Regarding the actual Italy, I saw this video a while ago, you might find it interesting:



I agree with the person who said that it's pointless to judge Italy as a great power like the US, UK, Germany, USSR. Or even France before they were caught out. Italy lacked in social preparedness for total war, industrial capacity, equipment, leadership, etc. On a man-to-man basis, I'm sure the ordinary combat soldier was no worse or more cowardly than that of most other countries in the war.
 

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