Historical strategy

[Serious_Business]

What are the best historical strategy games out there?

A lot of appeal of strategy games to me is their historical aspects. If the game is about a specific era I have a particular interest in, I'll definitively be interested. I played a lot of Rome : Total War with the Europa Barbarorum mod, even if the game is basically tedious masturbation and you can't possibly loose at it. Since the era really interests me and it is quite well depicted I almost don't mind the gameplay at all.

Almost, because of course I'm not playing that game anymore, it's a waste of time. There's Europa Universalis : Rome which will come out and that will be awesome.

Speaking of, the Paradox games are the most deep historical games I know of, but the eras they depict don't really get to me for now. The Civ games do what they're good at but their very concept goes against historical coherency so they obviously can't fit the bill (not to say I don't enjoy them).

Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone had any input on this.

 

[Gold]

Europa Universalis 2 with the AGCEEP mod is probably the most historically accurate strategy game you will find.

 

[Amasius]

I remember fondly playing Historyline. It plays *SHOCK* *GASP* in World War I (yes ONE!!!111) and has nice little history lessons between the battles. The game is based on the Battle Isle (again: I) engine and you can play either France or Germany and they even have some different units. It's informative, quite hard and turnbased - it doesn't get better than this, right?

 

[mondblut]

Great Invasions is your game. It's essentially a more abstract/tabletop-ish Europa Universalis set in late RE and Dark Ages.

 

[spacemoose]

if you liked HOI2, you'll probably like AACW, I'll just quote myself here:

then there's aegod's american civil war. I was impressed by the napoleon's campaigns demo, since I was looking for something similar to HOI2, and it delivered, but because it lacks a grand campaign scenario, I was a bit turned off from it - I like my logistic planning and recruitment etc. so I got its predecessor - AACW.

this game, THIS GAME. every time I asked for something similar to HOI2, people would suggest other paradox titles, well guess what, if I've played HOI into the ground it stands to reason that I've checked out the developers other offerings , no?

so I tell you now - if you're a grizzled HOI vet looking for something similar, or even a bit more serious, aegod's american civil war is fucking IT.

the game is quite detailed, your generals are the generals from the period - with portraits and stats/traits that reflect their abilities and accomplishments in real life. the action is driven by special events, which fire either automatically with time, or dependent on your actions (very similar to HOI).

the geographic scale, as well as the combat scale is a bit smaller, with the smallest fighting unit being the brigade (as opposed to a division). each brigade is made up of "elements" which you can change - ie, you could have an all line infantry brigade, or line infantry and a few artillery units, or a balance between artillery, infantry and cavalry.

the army structure is quite a bit more important than it is in HOI. grouping your forces into divisions, corps and armies is downright necessary, to avoid command limit penalties. you also get bonuses from army commanders that apply to the corps under their command.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Europa Universalis 2 with the AGCEEP mod is probably the most historically accurate strategy game you will find.

Everyone tells me how great Magna Mundi is, but I really don't see how it can be better than AGCEEP. Destroying the Austrian empire by getting into wars with everyone has never been more fun.

There are some Civ IV mods that are historically accurate. Search for "Rhye".

 

[Tagaziel]

An oldie but goodie is Colonization, about the discovery and taking of the New World.

 

[dagorkan]

The Paradox games are great in concept, detail and ambition, unfortunately the implementation of the gameplay always seems lacking. Once you figure out the engine they become boring fast

 

[Araanor]

The charm with Paradox games is that you can try so many different things. Sure, France in EU or Germany in HOI are cakewalks as soon as you understand the mechanics, but you can pick any country and use any strategy you want. When I play Paradox games, I actively pick small states and try to bring them to glory. There are a myriad of different challenges out there.

Some mods add considerable depth too.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

Victoria+Revolutions is the best of Paradox's games by far, lots and lots of depth and great music. I can't think of a better historical strategy game from any company, in fact. Just try it, and you'll see.

Everyone tells me how great Magna Mundi is, but I really don't see how it can be better than AGCEEP. Destroying the Austrian empire by getting into wars with everyone has never been more fun.

Isn't MM the EU3 mod? It was awful if you ask me. It just seemed to add a lot of random events with choices like "have a revolt with either 20, 50, or 100 regiments, because peasants grow tired of having to wear turbans.", which would happen every other month. While surely it made things more lively, it also made the game slow down to a crawl (and the fucker wasn't exactly well-made anyway, I just couldn't believe how such a shitty looking game could be so insufferably slow while any other game works just fine).

 

[someone else]

An oldie but goodie is Colonization, about the discovery and taking of the New World.

If you haven't played this game, you should, of all the games I played, this is the only one where I ran out of brain power thinking of the best way to maximise production; there are just so many variables and decisions to make.

It was easier when I was kid when I first played it but now, trying to make a perfect game gives me a headache.

*kiss pinky ring*

Oh yes, I guess I should give a plug for Pacific Storm Allies, once they fix the CTDs and if you able to handle micromanagement. I keep 2 main fleets to make the management easier.

 

[Burning Bridges]

At the moment the best game around is American Civil War. Wargamers love it, noobs hate it, what more do I have to say. You can' t beat this grand campaign.

If you don't mind somewhat older games, Shogun Total War. The series went downhill after that, but if you like athmosphere, Shogun is the best strategy game of all time. I just doubt that many people still play it now, because a lot of its appeal came from its graphics, and in that respect it has aged a bit unfavourably.

As to the Paradox games, I never really got into them. Hoi2 was fun for a while, until I realized it runs on a crappy engine, and the graphics sucks, and I don't like second best in my games.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Oh yes, I guess I should give a plug for Pacific Storm Allies, once they fix the CTDs and if you able to handle micromanagement. I keep 2 main fleets to make the management easier.

You prolly will regret any more time you spend with that game. I actually bought PA (their first effort) and the micromanagement killed me. Which is a pity I thought this might be fun like Microprose PAW1942. This franchise is hopeless beyond repair.

 

[someone else]

Maybe I'll give American Civil War a try, despite not being American and knowing little about the battles. Unfortunately I have about 20 games sitting on the shelf I have yet to play.

I actually like PS so much that I went and bought PSA but haven't have the time to play it.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Well lucky you then.

Understanding the setup in AACW it takes a while. It's a damn hard game to start. But when you discover that you have full control over the whole war, it's pure bliss. Probably the best grand campaign ever released in a strategy game.

 

[JarlFrank]

Despite being even less challenging than Rome, buy Medieval Total War 2. Just for the mods. Believe me, there are so many great historical mods in development out there, and one has already been released and it's pure joy. Broken Crescent, which plays in the Middle East during the time of the Crusades. You can play lots of different Eastern factions, the Byzantine Empire, even the Indian Rajput states. A wonderful mod, especially if you enjoy the era.

And the EB team are making Europa Barbarorum 2 for M2TW, which is one of the most detailed historical mods ever. Lovely.

Also, try the Civ4 mod "Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations". It's getting fucking laggy at the later stages of the game, though. Turns take ages then.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Actually the number of mods for RTW/MTW is turning me off. I guess the current generation of TW players must be going insane trying to keep track.

After MTW2 collected dust for more than a year, I have finally dowloaded Broken Crescent. The scenario really interesting, but I haven't played so far. Maybe I am really fed up with the TW system. But like JarlFrank says, they put in a lot of detail in these mods.

Another one I am still waiting for is Ran No Jidai (which is a Sengoku Jidai mod for RTW), though I doubt I will be playing it a lot.

Anyway, any interest I had for the TW franchise seems to have died. It was unbelievable wen it was new (around 2000 when STW came out I was in heaven), and I was still enjoying RTW, but now I can't stand it any more.

An amusing twist is that while CA kept making "AI improvmements" version after version, patch after patch, in the end the AI in MTW2 is less competent than the one in STW. Strange.

 

[Serious_Business]

I know about MTW2; with expansion and mods, it is actually half-playable. I'm not sure if modders are able to modify the AI now, in RTW it was hard-coded, but there are mods that actually do make the AI better, not sure how they do it. At any rate, it still doesn't come near the first one yet, so forget about it. There's something about the new engine map that kind of disgusts me. As far as the old games having better AI, it seems to be that it could handle the old map better more than anything. MTW is still a very solid game, we're probably not going to see anything better from these guys. I never tried Shogun though, I have to say.

I'm probably going to give it a shot again when EB2 comes out, but last time I checked they weren't that far in.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, the AI seems to be moddable now as every second mod has its own AI to it. And it does make a difference, although it's still easy as fuck. I still hold some interest in the Total War series, and am probably going to get the next installment, Empire, too. They're going to make a new engine and change the campaign map again, and this time they let both AIs be programmed by the same programmer, so it's hopefully going to be a lot better.

Somewhere I read that since Shogun they actually programmed the diplomatic AI and war AI seperately, so even though the diplomatic AI wants to make an alliance with you, the war AI decides to attack you with two full stacks of soldiers.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Well I shouldn't talk down the efforts of those people modding the AI - but what else are they doing but endlessly tweaking the scripted parts? The AI since Rome is flawed in that it makes a frontal charge every time and does not defend. So I am kind of bored when I hear Ultimate AI here and AI tweak there.

When the Shogun AI was defending a province, it would take the strongest position and let you attack. The challenge was to overcome the disadvantage of the attacker, and to do so with minimal losses - because every man was precious.

In all TW games since Rome all you have to do is position your spearmen in front, put them on guard mode, position archers behind, and keep cavalry and swordsmen ready to strike at the critical moment. Which is when the enemy cavalry is engaged with your spearman (they charge every time) and exhausts itself - just attacke them in the rear one after another and you will eventually win every battle.

Shogun it was in many way a simulation, the units were precious and had an identity. Unfortunately CA have long ago abandoned that path. If you're new to the series and not so much interested in a battle simulator, however, these games are still extremely enjoyable and the best you can get.

P.S. Just finished my first session with Broken Crescent. It's very nice, but the game crashed when loading the first battle. So I guess I will wait for another year until the mods are mature

 

[JarlFrank]

Hmm, have any other recommendations for similar games, with more realistic AI and a rather simulationist attitude, like Shogun had it? I like large-scale tactical battles in that style, and I'd love to play some other games along that line. I've already played Knights of Honor, which plays a bit like a real-time Total War [or a Paradox game with a bit less detailed politics but real-time tactical battles], and Against Rome which had battles similar to Knights of Honor.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Well I definitely recommend you have a look at Ageods American Civil War (also see my posts above).

http://www.a-acw.com/english/main.html

It doesnt get much more sim like than this one .. and you can play a single grand campaign game for 1-3 weeks .. plus it has extremely good visuals, which were done by a real artist (Sandra Duval). Examples:

 

[JarlFrank]

Looks nice, definitely going to giveit a go, thanks.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Some more suggestions if you're looking for historic strategy:

Distant Guns / Jutland (Naval Strategy during Dreadnaught Era)

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/html/se_distantguns.html

http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/html/se_jutland.html

In development:

Histwar Les Grognards (Napoleonic Strategy with tactical battles similar to TW)

http://www.battlefront.com/products/les_grog/index.html
Gameplay video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_lN3TTdg94

The Lordz Gaming Studios (Makers of NTW who are working on a brand new engine)

http://thelordzgamesstudio.com

 

[JarlFrank]

I shall recommend Knights of Honor, which I shortly mentioned in a post above. It plays a bit like a Paradox game, not as complex, but still pretty cool. It has real-time tactical battles like the TW games, and the graphics are beautiful. 2D, of course. It's pretty easy, though, but there's a pretty nice mod which makes the game more difficult and fixes most of the bugs.