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Hearts of Iron 3 Tips (SF, FtM, TfH)

Panzeroo

Literate
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Oct 24, 2014
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If I follow you correctly about the minister of information tech, as in the general secretary events ? These have been removed completely. Mainly due to the disadvantage to AI nations !
General Secretary controls X (good riddance, personally I don't particularly like completely random variables), and the more predictable triggered modifier where a nation gets a -3% dissent penalty (four of them that stack) after X battles (100, 250, 500, 1000 battles IIRC), which is also influenced by the same tech (rather, you need X value in the tech to prevent the penalty modifier). End result was that most AI nations were spending 80% of their IC on consumer goods just to avoid dissent spiraling out of control, since only Germany, UK (not sure about UK, actually), USA and USSR AIs actually researched the tech.

EDIT: Actually, other questions:

Does Finland have a special national focus decision yet?

Have the Leader and Minister pools for smaller nations been expanded?

Do Reichskoms have larger minister pools?

Have you included or thought of including a list of used ID ranges for events, leaders, ministers, et al to give a little help for personalizing one's own copy of the mod?


I'm not even going to ask if you've managed to make democracy HoS HoG selections make more sense, or elections in general making more sense, since that's just impossible given how HoI3 is innately geared towards being one-party dictatorships and one-party democracies game .

Yeah I agree that General secretary concept didn't work out.

Finland doesn't have a specific national focus decision as yet. It relies on the generic national focus. We could make one specifically for Finland easy enough however is it really needed ? It would add more immersion for playing Finland though maybe not much else ? Unless there are some very Finnish specific national focus ideas to use ?

Do you mean military leader pools ? These along with the minister pools are only really expanded upon player requests. Most of them use the same set ups from Diday's ICE. I am willing and happy to expand the lists if someone does the research as to which leaders/ ministers should be added.

Unfrotunately BICE is such a monster mod with so many different contributers over such a time period ( counting Diday's ICE is goes back to when HOI3 was first released) that it would be a monumental task to list all the event IDs, leaders/ ministers etc. saying that there is a spreadsheet of event IDs which has been attempted. Its about 6 months out of date though :(
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
No worries, I tend to mod for my own amusement and what I personally need or find fun for a particular playthrough. Just wondered if any baseline changes had been done beyond the usual.

Personally I've only added a couple of additional historical generals (mostly old farts who weren't particularly famous or important, still managed to hunt down photographs to use) and unit commanders of lower rank for Finland (a bit more liberal and fanciful here, since Törni and Juutilainen become available in 1945). I would have added Estonian leaders and ministers in the advent of axis victory, though the fact there's no wake_leader command like in HoI2 it just can't be done in a feasible manner.

It's a damn shame Pdox never got around to adding letter support for IDs into HoI3 (no hope of that now, and probably never due to HoI4), since it'd make organizing things a lot easier when you don't need to rely on a disorientingly vast list of numbers alone but can have bollocks.1 and bullshit.1 as IDs instead.
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
haha yes, bollocks.1 and bullshit.1 as event ID ! That's gold :D In fact I am inspired to add an easter egg into BICE thanks to this thread and its butt hurting predilections. Maybe a Haitian Super Carrier named HCS Butthurt Codex
:australia:
 
Joined
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Messages
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oxTBlza.jpg
The sad thing is that this isn't even the AI cheating specifically (It's Germany cheating, no doubt). Indeed if you build specific OP combinations of units you'll easily get 100% or more combined arms and the total attack/defense modifier will be at least 1000% if not 1200-1500%, so the Germany AI is actually held back by how unable they are to properly abuse the combat system in BICE. Thanks to BICE there is absolutely no reason not to max combined arms (due to the multiplicative stacking), and this means that every division is some ridiculously silly combination of Light armor attachment/Cavalry/Infantry/Marines/Recon Cavalry/AT (going off memory, I'd have to check to see if this is optimal). Germany's cheat in this instance is their starting leaders/units having ridiculous experience and their Territorial Pride being both OP and used when they are attacking into Polish territory.

If you play France you can get a hilarious scenario where you are able to easily stonewall Germany and literally bleed their whole manpower pool dry without taking a scratch. Did I mention terrain modifiers were massively overpowered as well, leading to defense often nearly doubling your final attack/defense modifier? If you defend the Ardennes you can easily reach 1500% attack/defense modifiers as France to which Germany's 100-200% modifier (not having territorial pride and having a terrain penalty) are a laughingstock. Sadly there's virtually no reason to actually attack or conduct a mobile form of warfare in BICE, just defend with your absurdly OP modifiers and watch as you get 10:1, 20:1, 30:1 K : D ratios.

Then there are the ridiculous balance decisions with regards to the armor/piercing mechanic, which leads to Germany and the Soviets both having armor that is literally unpiercable by any tech obtainable at the time (and the armor effect is strong enough that it is the one thing that can potentially beat the ridiculous bonuses you can conjure). The only solace you have is that the AI is too stupid to build many of their unpiercable armor with which it could easily beat the odds and steamroll you.

Aside from these fundamental balance issues that make the mod a joke there are huge amount of other issues that plague the mod. Most of them have slipped my mind by now, but I'm sure they are still hanging around in a thread here somewhere if anyone cares to fuck with the search enough.
 

GarfunkeL

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Nov 7, 2008
Messages
15,463
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Insert clever insult here
Just necro's this thread to ask if there is now any point in playing vanilla, or just go straight for Black ICE or some other mod? Never played HoI games before.
Then it's absolutely necessary to play TFH vanilla first. It's not really that complex a game and the AI isn't very good, so just dive and try out different things. Germany is always fun and you should be able to take out Poland and France in your first try if you play on normal. Hard and Very Hard give you penalties and AI bonuses but nothing else changes.

I don't know about BICE because it's so big that my poor laptop with only 2 gbs of RAM cannot run it. However, other mods I've tried out:

-TRP is absolutely the best AI-mod but unfortunately Lothos added a bunch of other stuff as well, which I don't agree with and not all of which works reliably.
-HPP is well maintained, adds the widescreen version (save yourself the loading time and go to the .ini file for the mod to manually set your resolution before you play) which doesn't work if your resolution is 1024x768 or lower, adds a ton of new events and strategic effects and reworks much of the tech tree.
-RPM2 uses also widescreen version, utilizes decisions instead of events for new models - all of which are historical - adds unique units (through a sub-mod) and has a bunch of events as well but is less intrusive than HPP. Has an Kaiserreich-style sub-mod Blue Steel that's nifty if you loved Kaiserreich
-WW1 is naturally the WW1 version of the game. Aside from UK AI never sending their army to France, it works really well and I very much like it.
-DWI is my current favourite as it allows the construction of historically accurate divisions as the sub-unit count has been increased to 8 (or was it 9?) meaning that German infantry division has the proper 3x regiments, 1x artillery regiment, 1x heavy artillery battalion, 1x recon battalion, 1x at battalion and 1x engineer battalion. It also has a ton of unique units, mostly for Germany, some of which are for flavour-only. Bunch of new events, mostly to deal with the unique units and only very few changes to the tech tree. The AI can and will build larger divisions as well and the OOBs of the majors are all properly done, though minors are still shafted. It also makes air units cheaper so that you can have historical-sized air forces (or much bigger) meaning that you cannot ignore the air side of things or you will bleed to death. There's also an Viva Italia submod that fixes some stuff in German events and introduces a bunch of new stuff for Italy.

There are also other mods but I haven't tried them out. Still, play vanilla first and ask away if you have any questions.

Oh and welcome Panzeroo! :D
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
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MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
In fact I am inspired to add an easter egg into BICE thanks to this thread and its butt hurting predilections. Maybe a Haitian Super Carrier named HCS Butthurt Codex
For accuracy's sake, these Carriers should actually be assigned to be granted by event to Pakistan and Georgia.
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
The sad thing is that this isn't even the AI cheating specifically (It's Germany cheating, no doubt). Indeed if you build specific OP combinations of units you'll easily get 100% or more combined arms and the total attack/defense modifier will be at least 1000% if not 1200-1500%, so the Germany AI is actually held back by how unable they are to properly abuse the combat system in BICE. Thanks to BICE there is absolutely no reason not to max combined arms (due to the multiplicative stacking), and this means that every division is some ridiculously silly combination of Light armor attachment/Cavalry/Infantry/Marines/Recon Cavalry/AT (going off memory, I'd have to check to see if this is optimal). Germany's cheat in this instance is their starting leaders/units having ridiculous experience and their Territorial Pride being both OP and used when they are attacking into Polish territory.

If you play France you can get a hilarious scenario where you are able to easily stonewall Germany and literally bleed their whole manpower pool dry without taking a scratch. Did I mention terrain modifiers were massively overpowered as well, leading to defense often nearly doubling your final attack/defense modifier? If you defend the Ardennes you can easily reach 1500% attack/defense modifiers as France to which Germany's 100-200% modifier (not having territorial pride and having a terrain penalty) are a laughingstock. Sadly there's virtually no reason to actually attack or conduct a mobile form of warfare in BICE, just defend with your absurdly OP modifiers and watch as you get 10:1, 20:1, 30:1 K : D ratios.

Then there are the ridiculous balance decisions with regards to the armor/piercing mechanic, which leads to Germany and the Soviets both having armor that is literally unpiercable by any tech obtainable at the time (and the armor effect is strong enough that it is the one thing that can potentially beat the ridiculous bonuses you can conjure). The only solace you have is that the AI is too stupid to build many of their unpiercable armor with which it could easily beat the odds and steamroll you.

Aside from these fundamental balance issues that make the mod a joke there are huge amount of other issues that plague the mod. Most of them have slipped my mind by now, but I'm sure they are still hanging around in a thread here somewhere if anyone cares to fuck with the search enough.

There will always be people who abuse/ game the system. That's their choice of course. fact is the player has much more cheats over the AI . Some are because the AI isnyt very good at using the game mechanics - such as paratroops and basic things such as holding back a strategic reserve or allocating its best generals to the best units. Other things it just can't do at all such as reshuffle its build queue or research queue. It can't upgrade units to another unit type ( like light armor to armor ). It won't promote its generals, or concentrate its forces - you wo't ever see the AI organise a corps of pure armor divisions or mountain troops. It doesn't understand terrain or the best units to use in terrain. It isn't as good at trade or resource management as a player. Basically it cannot make long term strategic plans. All these things make any claims of AI cheating a little mute compared to what a player can do. In fact the very first version of BICE when it was a sub mod of didays ICE for Semper FI was to remove as many player only game functions as possible. The idea being if the AI couldn't do it, neither should the player. However that did remove a lot of the fun factor. It made the AI / player balance closer but the game a lot drier.

CA bonus is useful though it takes some time to reach high values - you need to do a lot of tech research across a broad spectrum of the techs. Further the CA combinations are not always going to be optimal. For example adding infantry into a light armor unit with marines will cost a lot more IC and build time for a unit with stats which make the CA combination worthless. In fact the biggest exploit in BICE at least until the next version is in units with high soft attack or low softness.
Territorial pride isn't only a German modifier, and in the case of Poland it applies specifically to provinces with german cores. It makes perfect sense here.
yes defend the ardnennes by all means. That region should be easily defendable. The fact that is wasn't guarded correctly was an major error of judgement in 1940 and later in 1944. However depending on the difficulty settings the German AI will find a way through. The defense modifiers are high but so too are the leader experience and tech level increases. Higher difficulty levels allow for more MP for the AI. So its a lot harder to bleed the AI dry by gamey tactics.
That means that merely sitting behind the wall of the maginot or the forest in the ardnennes won't be enough to win. You can try to wear the German AI down but time is against you. Eventually the AI will out tech you and out build you. What you might achieve though is enough damage to blunt the german's success in Barbarossa. That would be a strategic success even if you have to watch from the sidelines.

The armor preicing / armor value mechanic is contentious. Its very black and white. If your tank armor value is higher then the enemy armor piercing value you get a large bonus against that division. It can result in some nasty shocks for the Germans when they run into divisions with better soviet armor. T 34 or KV 1 vs the Pz III or 37mm AT guns ? Its not going to go so well for a lot of german units. however there are ways and means around this. the mod has the 88mm guns in it and airpower which can help blunt the better soviet armor. In fact the germans have the bonus of the dual AA/ AT gun tech which allows them to use the 88mm unit and pierce any tank in the game. In the next version though the effect of the armor value is being lowered by half so that the need to have a gun vs tank armor tech race isn't so crucial. The soviet AI will actually build a lot of heavy armor and T 34 armor units. So much so that we have had to scale it back abit. It will still out prodcue the germans though. By late Barbarossa the soviet defense will typically consist of the conscript unit ( which is like a low morale cannon fodder unit enmass) and armor units as a backbone. It is very difficult to win against the soviet AI in 1941. Not impossible but you basically have to plan for it from the start and not make any errors. More likely the war will drag on into 1942/ 43 and most players seem to eventually record a win by 1944. But its a tough slog.

We are also changing the reliance on terrirorial pride as the main mechanism to blunt the players drive over the AI. To do this we are introducing new weather effect "buildings" These are event driven and placed in provinces at a regional scale. each level of the fort makesgives a defensive bonus. So driving into Russia and the winter begins will suddenly find a player fighting against soviet units with a higher defensive bonus. Conversly the player will be able to dig in and use the weather to defend against the soviet counter attack. It then presents a nice scenario where the German player has to weigh up pushing into the weather and getting progressively weaker or digging in an waiting the winter out ( and thus allowing the soviets to recover from the losses of Barbarossa).
We also have mud and monsoon effects to complicate things.
The modifers are intenitally high in BICE and hence very unforgiving. Its a mod with a tough learning curve. Make a mistake and you will lose, but for every high defence modifier there is a way to counter it. There is a huge variety of units to choose from and none are optimal for all situaions. There is no one size fiots all units combination. You really need to design your units with the task intended for them. Sending the worng unit into the wrong sort of battle will cost you badly. It can take a few playthroughs and learning the mod to get this downpacked. Added to this you still have to content with the occasional curve ball by the HOI 3 AI. It not as clever as you and the player gets way more cheats then the AI by default, but at its core its a decent opportunist. Give it an opening and it will take it.
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
good thing is at least over on the paradox forum iam compiling a sticky thread of all the threads various players have posted which give tips and suggestions for playing the mod. The idea being that this might work as an info bank for new players. There is no doubt that BICE changes so many things in HOI3 that many people including people who play other mods are thrown out by BICE. It plays totally unlike any other mod of HOI3.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,287
There will always be people who abuse/ game the system. That's their choice of course. fact is the player has much more cheats over the AI . Some are because the AI isnyt very good at using the game mechanics - such as paratroops and basic things such as holding back a strategic reserve or allocating its best generals to the best units. Other things it just can't do at all such as reshuffle its build queue or research queue. It can't upgrade units to another unit type ( like light armor to armor ). It won't promote its generals, or concentrate its forces - you wo't ever see the AI organise a corps of pure armor divisions or mountain troops. It doesn't understand terrain or the best units to use in terrain. It isn't as good at trade or resource management as a player. Basically it cannot make long term strategic plans. All these things make any claims of AI cheating a little mute compared to what a player can do. In fact the very first version of BICE when it was a sub mod of didays ICE for Semper FI was to remove as many player only game functions as possible. The idea being if the AI couldn't do it, neither should the player. However that did remove a lot of the fun factor. It made the AI / player balance closer but the game a lot drier.

If you consider building divisions well abuse, why don't you fix the problem with certain divisions being blatantly overpowered? It's not rocket science here. Don't try to stigmatize me for "gaming" the damned game by playing the game and paying attention to stats. If I cast an ice spell on a fire elemental am I an abuser/gamer of the system?

CA bonus is useful though it takes some time to reach high values - you need to do a lot of tech research across a broad spectrum of the techs. Further the CA combinations are not always going to be optimal. For example adding infantry into a light armor unit with marines will cost a lot more IC and build time for a unit with stats which make the CA combination worthless. In fact the biggest exploit in BICE at least until the next version is in units with high soft attack or low softness.

If by "time" you mean about 3 years, the point at which WW2 actually starts, then yeah, it takes time. But by then its more than just a little OP.

IC and build time? What? I'm literally talking about the cheapest units of almost every unit group. The CA bonus ends up off the charts and it wipes the floor with everyone else (pretty average-high stats, then you double everything for 100% CA). The cost is miniscule compared to the insane amount of IC you give players in BICE (another problem I might add.

Also lol at calling high soft attack or low softness an exploit. Did I mention that the units I told you also essentially destroy every unit regardless of softness since their SA/HA are both quite high?

Territorial pride isn't only a German modifier, and in the case of Poland it applies specifically to provinces with german cores. It makes perfect sense here.
I know what territorial pride is, thank you very much. YOU are the one who made it a gigantic laughingstock of a cheat. 50%+ territorial pride makes no sense at all. Territorial pride is inherently a defensive bonus (stupidity with cores in poland aside), while virtually all of the best fighting done by Germany was done specifically in other countries' cores. So just get out. It makes absolutely zero sense either historically or in gameplay and only serves to help you railroad Germany to early victory along your own mangled combat system and save them from the poor "exploiters" by giving every German division another 50 soft attack each.

yes defend the ardnennes by all means. That region should be easily defendable. The fact that is wasn't guarded correctly was an major error of judgement in 1940 and later in 1944. However depending on the difficulty settings the German AI will find a way through. The defense modifiers are high but so too are the leader experience and tech level increases. Higher difficulty levels allow for more MP for the AI. So its a lot harder to bleed the AI dry by gamey tactics.
That means that merely sitting behind the wall of the maginot or the forest in the ardnennes won't be enough to win. You can try to wear the German AI down but time is against you. Eventually the AI will out tech you and out build you. What you might achieve though is enough damage to blunt the german's success in Barbarossa. That would be a strategic success even if you have to watch from the sidelines.

No, it literally is enough to win. Leader experience? Experience? Germany is losing unit experience at war due to attrition while France is gaining. Germany and French leaders are both gaining experience at the same rate. France pulls ahead in a stalemate. Don't tell me it doesn't work, I've done it myself and when I tagswitched over to Germany to check it out they were at 0 manpower and thousands behind on reinforcements.

Also lol at saying just give the AI more cheats to help them win. No shit, I'm sure it's easier for Germany if you ratchet up the bonuses and penalties so that Germany has something ridiculous like 50 fucking percent IC efficiency while France has a grand total of around 5 IC to spend on production due to all the penalties. Maybe you should work on fixing the core system rather than breaking it and trying to hold it together with bandaid difficulty modifiers? The number of different ways you try to give the AI an advantage over players feels downright subversive.

The armor preicing / armor value mechanic is contentious. Its very black and white. If your tank armor value is higher then the enemy armor piercing value you get a large bonus against that division. It can result in some nasty shocks for the Germans when they run into divisions with better soviet armor. T 34 or KV 1 vs the Pz III or 37mm AT guns ? Its not going to go so well for a lot of german units. however there are ways and means around this. the mod has the 88mm guns in it and airpower which can help blunt the better soviet armor. In fact the germans have the bonus of the dual AA/ AT gun tech which allows them to use the 88mm unit and pierce any tank in the game. In the next version though the effect of the armor value is being lowered by half so that the need to have a gun vs tank armor tech race isn't so crucial. The soviet AI will actually build a lot of heavy armor and T 34 armor units. So much so that we have had to scale it back abit. It will still out prodcue the germans though. By late Barbarossa the soviet defense will typically consist of the conscript unit ( which is like a low morale cannon fodder unit enmass) and armor units as a backbone. It is very difficult to win against the soviet AI in 1941. Not impossible but you basically have to plan for it from the start and not make any errors. More likely the war will drag on into 1942/ 43 and most players seem to eventually record a win by 1944. But its a tough slog.

If you are lowering the armor penalties then that's an improvement.

Do look at the ridiculous bonuses the Soviets get though. As a player you can build their special Red Heavy Armor units in around 2 weeks once enough cities are taken if you amass enough practicals and IC efficiency bonuses. For the AI with their extra bonuses I am 95% sure that they get units for free.

The modifers are intenitally high in BICE and hence very unforgiving. Its a mod with a tough learning curve. Make a mistake and you will lose, but for every high defence modifier there is a way to counter it. There is a huge variety of units to choose from and none are optimal for all situaions. There is no one size fiots all units combination. You really need to design your units with the task intended for them. Sending the worng unit into the wrong sort of battle will cost you badly. It can take a few playthroughs and learning the mod to get this downpacked. Added to this you still have to content with the occasional curve ball by the HOI 3 AI. It not as clever as you and the player gets way more cheats then the AI by default, but at its core its a decent opportunist. Give it an opening and it will take it.

Tough learning curve? The only learning curve is spending half an hour reading through the ridiculously over-complex tech. Once you know that it's simple as long as you understand basic HoI3 mechanics. Then you go and tell me that because I've learned what's up that I'm I "abuse/game the system".

There is certainly a one size fits all combination. I gave it to you. Defending or attacking in Mountains? CA-focused division wins. Plains? Same division wins. Naval landing? I suspect it's still a good contender (losing the LAA over something else with less amphibious penalties might, might be a good idea. I'd have to actually check the numbers).
 
Last edited:

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
There will always be people who abuse/ game the system. That's their choice of course. fact is the player has much more cheats over the AI . Some are because the AI isnyt very good at using the game mechanics - such as paratroops and basic things such as holding back a strategic reserve or allocating its best generals to the best units. Other things it just can't do at all such as reshuffle its build queue or research queue. It can't upgrade units to another unit type ( like light armor to armor ). It won't promote its generals, or concentrate its forces - you wo't ever see the AI organise a corps of pure armor divisions or mountain troops. It doesn't understand terrain or the best units to use in terrain. It isn't as good at trade or resource management as a player. Basically it cannot make long term strategic plans. All these things make any claims of AI cheating a little mute compared to what a player can do. In fact the very first version of BICE when it was a sub mod of didays ICE for Semper FI was to remove as many player only game functions as possible. The idea being if the AI couldn't do it, neither should the player. However that did remove a lot of the fun factor. It made the AI / player balance closer but the game a lot drier.

If you consider building divisions well abuse, why don't you fix the problem with certain divisions being blatantly overpowered? It's not rocket science here. Don't try to stigmatize me for "gaming" the damned game by playing the game and paying attention to stats. If I cast an ice spell on a fire elemental am I an abuser/gamer of the system?

CA bonus is useful though it takes some time to reach high values - you need to do a lot of tech research across a broad spectrum of the techs. Further the CA combinations are not always going to be optimal. For example adding infantry into a light armor unit with marines will cost a lot more IC and build time for a unit with stats which make the CA combination worthless. In fact the biggest exploit in BICE at least until the next version is in units with high soft attack or low softness.

If by "time" you mean about 3 years, the point at which WW2 actually starts, then yeah, it takes time. But by then its more than just a little OP.

IC and build time? What? I'm literally talking about the cheapest units of almost every unit group. The CA bonus ends up off the charts and it wipes the floor with everyone else (pretty average-high stats, then you double everything for 100% CA). The cost is miniscule compared to the insane amount of IC you give players in BICE (another problem I might add.

Also lol at calling high soft attack or low softness an exploit. Did I mention that the units I told you also essentially destroy every unit regardless of softness since their SA/HA are both quite high?

Territorial pride isn't only a German modifier, and in the case of Poland it applies specifically to provinces with german cores. It makes perfect sense here.
I know what territorial pride is, thank you very much. YOU are the one who made it a gigantic laughingstock of a cheat. 50%+ territorial pride makes no sense at all. Territorial pride is inherently a defensive bonus (stupidity with cores in poland aside), while virtually all of the best fighting done by Germany was done specifically in other countries' cores. So just get out. It makes absolutely zero sense either historically or in gameplay and only serves to help you railroad Germany to early victory along your own mangled combat system and save them from the poor "exploiters" by giving every German division another 50 soft attack each.

yes defend the ardnennes by all means. That region should be easily defendable. The fact that is wasn't guarded correctly was an major error of judgement in 1940 and later in 1944. However depending on the difficulty settings the German AI will find a way through. The defense modifiers are high but so too are the leader experience and tech level increases. Higher difficulty levels allow for more MP for the AI. So its a lot harder to bleed the AI dry by gamey tactics.
That means that merely sitting behind the wall of the maginot or the forest in the ardnennes won't be enough to win. You can try to wear the German AI down but time is against you. Eventually the AI will out tech you and out build you. What you might achieve though is enough damage to blunt the german's success in Barbarossa. That would be a strategic success even if you have to watch from the sidelines.

No, it literally is enough to win. Leader experience? Experience? Germany is losing unit experience at war due to attrition while France is gaining. Germany and French leaders are both gaining experience at the same rate. France pulls ahead in a stalemate. Don't tell me it doesn't work, I've done it myself and when I tagswitched over to Germany to check it out they were at 0 manpower and thousands behind on reinforcements.

Also lol at saying just give the AI more cheats to help them win. No shit, I'm sure it's easier for Germany if you ratchet up the bonuses and penalties so that Germany has something ridiculous like 50 fucking percent IC efficiency while France has a grand total of around 5 IC to spend on production due to all the penalties. Maybe you should work on fixing the core system rather than breaking it and trying to hold it together with bandaid difficulty modifiers? The number of different ways you try to give the AI an advantage over players feels downright subversive.

The armor preicing / armor value mechanic is contentious. Its very black and white. If your tank armor value is higher then the enemy armor piercing value you get a large bonus against that division. It can result in some nasty shocks for the Germans when they run into divisions with better soviet armor. T 34 or KV 1 vs the Pz III or 37mm AT guns ? Its not going to go so well for a lot of german units. however there are ways and means around this. the mod has the 88mm guns in it and airpower which can help blunt the better soviet armor. In fact the germans have the bonus of the dual AA/ AT gun tech which allows them to use the 88mm unit and pierce any tank in the game. In the next version though the effect of the armor value is being lowered by half so that the need to have a gun vs tank armor tech race isn't so crucial. The soviet AI will actually build a lot of heavy armor and T 34 armor units. So much so that we have had to scale it back abit. It will still out prodcue the germans though. By late Barbarossa the soviet defense will typically consist of the conscript unit ( which is like a low morale cannon fodder unit enmass) and armor units as a backbone. It is very difficult to win against the soviet AI in 1941. Not impossible but you basically have to plan for it from the start and not make any errors. More likely the war will drag on into 1942/ 43 and most players seem to eventually record a win by 1944. But its a tough slog.

If you are lowering the armor penalties then that's an improvement.

Do look at the ridiculous bonuses the Soviet AI gets though. As a player you can build their special Red Heavy Armor units in around 2 weeks once enough cities are taken if you amass enough practicals and IC efficiency bonuses. For the AI with their extra bonuses I am 95% sure that they get units for free.

The modifers are intenitally high in BICE and hence very unforgiving. Its a mod with a tough learning curve. Make a mistake and you will lose, but for every high defence modifier there is a way to counter it. There is a huge variety of units to choose from and none are optimal for all situaions. There is no one size fiots all units combination. You really need to design your units with the task intended for them. Sending the worng unit into the wrong sort of battle will cost you badly. It can take a few playthroughs and learning the mod to get this downpacked. Added to this you still have to content with the occasional curve ball by the HOI 3 AI. It not as clever as you and the player gets way more cheats then the AI by default, but at its core its a decent opportunist. Give it an opening and it will take it.

Tough learning curve? The only learning curve is spending half an hour reading through the ridiculously over-complex tech. Once you know that it's simple as long as you understand basic HoI3 mechanics. Then you go and tell me that because I've learned what's up that I'm I "abuse/game the system".

There is certainly a one size fits all combination. I gave it to you. Defending or attacking in Mountains? CA-focused division wins. Plains? Same division wins. Naval landing? I suspect it's still a good contender (losing the LAA over something else with less amphibious penalties might, might be a good idea. I'd have to actually check the numbers).

The CA bonus techs are scaled out over the entire multi level of the techs. In theory you could tech rush these and build divisions using only those unit types. That's a good example of gaming the system. Its not really that much fun though. Your choice here of course. the thing is CA bonus is useful but its not the out right winner you make it out to be. Sorry to pop your bubble of BICE expertise here ( butthurt much :D) but tech rushing one aspect of the game and focusing on units specifically to take advantage of that is gaming the system. No you didn't mention anything about your super powered unit combination. neither has anyone else mentioned this before. I would know ;) A number of people have crunched the numbers on unit stats here and your little combo isn't in the mix. I just don't see what you are mentioning as being reality here.

I assume you know what leader experience is and how it works ? Leaders gain experience from battles and length of time of the battles. In BICE there is a stack of different traits they gain as well. Long battles will produce more potent leaders. The terrain the battle is in will give that leader better experience in fighting in that terrain. In BICE this is a multi level trait system. So essentially the more a leader fights in a terrain the better he will get at fighting in it. Hence the German leaders who are already experienced become even better.

IC amounts have been very high and realitvely easy to boost due to BICE additions such as heavy Industry and National Focus Event Options. This large IC applies to both player and AI. So essentially you have larger forces and larger battles. Remember BICE amps up things across the board. It doesn't pussyfoot around. However the next version does make some cuts to IC building. Heavy Industry tech is only available once war begins. That makes a pre war build up harder. Also the IC effiecency tech has the effect of lowering IC total and vice versa. Tech rush your IC production and your factories will get less efficient.

The AI bonuses are mainly economic and hence strategic. there is no way to mod the combat AI. If it cheats its part of the game engine design. However there are no examples of Germany recieveing 50 % IC effiecney. This is a very potent modifier and 50% would actually be a problem for that nation due to it not being able to sustain its own production ! What BICE does do is use Territorial Pride in a somewhat contentious way - as you have picked up on. You could think of it as a game play circuit breaker. On one hand we have the player outplaying the AI often within historical boundaries. The trick is then to kickstart the AI and give it a chance to recover. essentially break the loop where the player pummels it over and over. TP is a very strong modifier. More so then the CA bonus. Its contentious I guess since people look at the name and not what its doing for the game flow purpose. So its not ideal from an pure gameplay immersion pov. That is why we are working into the mod the new weather building effects. These will replace a lot of the need to use TP.

BICE is subversive ! It doesn't pussyfoot around. if we can use a game mechanic to make things painful we will. The thing is though its balanced out with other apsects to the mod. This is why its so popular and so emotive for people. They play the mod and lose , so they game the system and think they have won and that the mod is broken or unbalanced. It takes some time to relearn HOI3 via BICE. Bottom line is its the most downloaded and talked about mod for BICE. People love it, people lose to it, people hate it.

It seem to me you lost your honest attempt at playing BICE and so scratched around to find exploits. I think this because there are a truck load of gameplay reports on BICE and they don't tend to read like yours unless the mod is being gamed due to not undertstanding the changes .

I suggest you try the mod again and report back.

Interestingly enough the values for the armor value/ armor piercing are the same as the vanilla settings. What is different is the way this multiplies the tech advantage having better armor has on a weaker unit. You will felt the pain if you meet a unit with better armor.
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
thanks mate ! and to think I was trying to be high brow about butt hurting via a contemporary artist's painting. Bloody sicko weirdo artist types.
 

Humppaleka

Cipher
Joined
May 21, 2011
Messages
863
For once a modder who actually explains his stuff and takes time to argue instead of going all primadonna. Hope you'll stay around longer. :D

E: even if it is easily countered :lol:
 
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Messages
14,287
The CA bonus techs are scaled out over the entire multi level of the techs. In theory you could tech rush these and build divisions using only those unit types. That's a good example of gaming the system. Its not really that much fun though. Your choice here of course. the thing is CA bonus is useful but its not the out right winner you make it out to be. Sorry to pop your bubble of BICE expertise here ( butthurt much :D) but tech rushing one aspect of the game and focusing on units specifically to take advantage of that is gaming the system. No you didn't mention anything about your super powered unit combination. neither has anyone else mentioned this before. I would know ;) A number of people have crunched the numbers on unit stats here and your little combo isn't in the mix. I just don't see what you are mentioning as being reality here.

I've not tech rushed at all and they are OP.

Your knowledge of your own mod is pure shit. Let me throw a few screens up:

Exhibit 1: 53 SA/29 HA, 82% CA = Effective 96.5 SA/52 HA. Cost: 3045 IC days. Bear in mind that this probably isn't even the best I could do, this was just a casual picking of units that gave high CA for low IC.
x6KGgdt.jpg

Exhibit 2: 50 SA/24 HA, 47% CA = Effective 73.5 SA/35 HA. Cost: 1939 IC days. The only thing competitive in SA/HA per IC-days, but only because its ridiculously cheap and woefully inadequate to fight.
JMQeBHr.jpg

Exhibit 3: 48 SA/24 HA, 66% CA = Effective 80 SA/39 HA. Cost: 8000 IC days. Flat out weaker for vastly more IC days.
GEXSvav.jpg

Exhibit 4: 60 SA/37 HA, 45% CA =Effective 87 SA/53.65. Cost: 14204 IC days. Ditto. I'd say that this unit has the advantage of piercing better, but my AT upgrades to mot-AT for the cost of... 180 IC-days.
L9vWT0Z.jpg

On top of this my division wins in virtually every other stat including terrain bonuses.

inb4 you accuse me of gaming the system. I idled as Cuba until 1940. German AI is far behind on doctrine techs. German AI has worse practicals. German AI researched the mind-bogglingly stupid strength increase (this is the worst research in the game btw). Furthermore this isn't even taking into account the superior strength tech that increases divisions to size 6. Had I played myself and even simply kept on time I would have vastly better units (By 1940 tech you can have an effective 128 SA once you add a recon cav, for a cost increase of only 72 extra IC days). Tell your idiots who "crunch the numbers" to go back and learn how math and/or HoI3 works.

I assume you know what leader experience is and how it works ? Leaders gain experience from battles and length of time of the battles. In BICE there is a stack of different traits they gain as well. Long battles will produce more potent leaders. The terrain the battle is in will give that leader better experience in fighting in that terrain. In BICE this is a multi level trait system. So essentially the more a leader fights in a terrain the better he will get at fighting in it. Hence the German leaders who are already experienced become even better.

I assume you aren't a complete idiot and can read what I wrote? France has leaders too you fucking moron. Both leaders gain skill and traits at the same rate. So it's at best a null effect, both sides benefiting the same. All of this I stated in my post, maybe you should read it next time before quoting it. Furthermore if we look closer in reality it's actually France that benefits comparatively, in two ways: 1. Mathematically speaking going from 10%->20% is a larger gain than 40%->50%, so low skill gains effectiveness quicker, and 2. My units, being far hardier and on defense are able to stay in battle far longer and therefore gain more quicker. But this is splitting hairs.

You also completely ignored the unit experience part, where high starting German experience is diluted over by weaker recruits while French experience skyrockets to 100% due to taking almost no comparative casualties.

The AI bonuses are mainly economic and hence strategic. there is no way to mod the combat AI. If it cheats its part of the game engine design. However there are no examples of Germany recieveing 50 % IC effiecney. This is a very potent modifier and 50% would actually be a problem for that nation due to it not being able to sustain its own production !

Just quickly starting up I can count ~27.5% IC efficiency through tech and strategic effects obtainable for germany at the 1940 level. Their laws normally give them -15% which could be rectified if the AI wasn't retarded, but it isn't (this is the dumbest shit by the way, now you are gimping the AI by making laws that they stay in shit). They can get a further 12.5% from ministers. They get +25% from very hard difficulty. So there you go, 50%. Scarily enough, I can get 40% IC efficiency as a human Germany, just by playing well exploiting and changing laws.

What BICE does do is use Territorial Pride in a somewhat contentious way - as you have picked up on. You could think of it as a game play circuit breaker. On one hand we have the player outplaying the AI often within historical boundaries. The trick is then to kickstart the AI and give it a chance to recover. essentially break the loop where the player pummels it over and over. TP is a very strong modifier. More so then the CA bonus. Its contentious I guess since people look at the name and not what its doing for the game flow purpose. So its not ideal from an pure gameplay immersion pov. That is why we are working into the mod the new weather building effects. These will replace a lot of the need to use TP.
Maybe don't give out absurdly powerful defensive and CA modifiers and you won't need a TP modifier in order to help the Germans break it? Just a thought. In fact that's kind of the overriding thought.

It seem to me you lost your honest attempt at playing BICE and so scratched around to find exploits. I think this because there are a truck load of gameplay reports on BICE and they don't tend to read like yours unless the mod is being gamed due to not undertstanding the changes .

Stop using that "exploit" word. It makes you look like a moron. Playing the game is not an exploit.

On one hand you try to defend your mod by saying it is balanced and that my CA-focused divisions aren't OP. In the same post you say that the only way I win is by exploiting the game. My exploit is building CA-focused divisions and sitting around laughing at Germany at she flails around ineffectually and dies a manpower death almost immediately. So WHICH IS IT? Are my divisions not OP or are they OP and I'm a horrible player for building divisions that are powerful?
 
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Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
Your a weird little man aren't you ! I made the mod and you think you know it better then I do :D I see there is no point bothering to have a discussion with you are all you will do is cherry pick ways you gamed the system to support your crusade against BICE. Have fun with that. maybe you need to get out more. or at least calm the rabid hysteria. Gotten laid recently ? To put it mildly, I dispute everything you wrote for one reason or another, and don't actually really care that much either.
the AI doesn't research the division strength increase techs. Its prevented from doing so simply by not having the country flag. Unless you tag switch between nations and let the AI gain the country flag event. In which case its not the design of the mod. The division increase/ decrease tech is handled by decisions for the AI triggered by things such as manpower amounts.

So chances are you stuffed up your game without even knowing it. tag switching if that's what you did ( and in order to have the AI research the division increase techs that is the only way it occurs) the AI research and production will get messed up. Sorry about that.

Yes you will your units will gain more experience the longer they fight. that's basic game mechanics. So if you hole your units up in the maginot and the AI attacks you can expect to take less casualties and gain experience form the battle. In fact with BICE there is a greater variety of traits you can gain and you might even gain a battle commander out of the combat.

The territorial pride is used not just to halt the Germans, but more so to block the player vs the AI. However we are altering this in the next version of the mod thanks to the new weather effects being implemented. TP will still have an impact but won't be the main game mechanic used to help the soviet AI at the end of Barbarossa.

playing the game is not an exploit, and there are quite a few players who have written guides on winning in BICE without gamey exploits or weird division builds to max out certain stats. You can do that of course, as its your game to play. But its an exploit and counter to the mod design. Like I said its impossible to prevent people finding ways to exploit the game/ mod mechanics. However you don't need to do this to have a fun game. Each to their own of course.

To put it simply. You don't have to play the mod if you don't like it. A hell of a lot of people do. You don't.. and life goes on around you ranting and gibbering. I suggest you calm down abit and stick to playing a mod you do enjoy.
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
I will be around here more. There is a new version of the mod almost ready for release so I will be spruiking that and answering questions about the mod, even from ol' bug a lugs captain exploiter with the massive chip on his shoulder.
:australia:
 

Panzeroo

Literate
Joined
Oct 24, 2014
Messages
17
Location
Australia
Yes bad design does allow exploits. However any design is going to allow a player to game the system if they want. Its part and parcel of HOI3. The game play is full of exploits and many of them are built into the vanilla game. BICE at least compensates the AI for the worst of the exploits, much to captain exploits chagrin.
 

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