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Healing spells/items are lazy game design for RPGs.

Johannes

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It's not that you can just reroll minor inconveniences. But if you constantly have a save to fall back to, getting into that game over screen turns pretty meaningless. So you don't feel compelled at all to play safe when faced with possible but unlikely death, you have almost nothing invested into staying alive. And when you're not invested victory doesn't feel as sweet.
 

Drakron

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Johannes said:
But if you constantly have a save to fall back to

Well I am a Saveoholic but not everyone is and restricting save points is simply adding artificial dificulty.

getting into that game over screen turns pretty meaningless.

Because IT IS PRETTY MEANINGLESS unless you set yourself with the goal of KILLING THE PLAYER.
Being a Killer DM is not the goal of a game developer.

So you don't feel compelled at all to play safe when faced with possible but unlikely death, you have almost nothing invested into staying alive.

OK, here is the thing.
We are talking about PENALIZE THE PLAYER about something, if you die in the game your choices are:

A)Quit the Game.
B)Reload a Previous Saved Game.

If you remove the player ability to save when he damn well pleases then EVERYTHING THAT GOES WRONG IS BECAUSE YOUR ARBITRARY PLACED SAVED POINTS.

This is why people RAGE at unskipable cutscenes because not only you have to go replay the entire thing until when you lost and THEN see the damn fucking cutscene for the "x"th time.

I give a example ... in FarCry I ended up triggering a save point with almost no heath (one shoot and I was dead) at the EXACT SAME TIME TWO ENEMIES SPAWNED DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF ME.

Oh and I cheated the fuck out that game, FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING SCRIPTED TO ZOOM IN ON THE PLAYER MONEKYS AND I KNOW YOU SHITS DID THAT BECAUSE I TURNED THE AI OFF AND THEY STILL RUN RIGHT INTO MY POSITION BUT DID NOT ATTACK !!!


And when you're not invested victory doesn't feel as sweet.

And here comes the crux of the problem.

Just because YOU think that way does it mean EVERYONE thinks that way ... I seen FAR too many cheating bosses that does not make the victory "sweet" just makes me glad that is fucking over.

People have different ideas about what they like in games, I happen to enjoy bosses that fight fair or at least there is a means to defeating then.

This whole tread is a example of game design stupidity because not ONCE did anyone of you with your "great" design ideas apparently thought about the player ... you are simply designing a system for YOURSELVES to play without even consideration about what can go wrong and this is not a tabletop game session were your DM can make sure there is no TPK, a computer game is something you have to give a LOT of room because the system is unyielding.
 

J1M

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I was hoping this would go back to being about healing design instead of being about saving.

But it didn't. So now I have to shame some people by extolling the virtues of WoW.

Obviously WoW healing is designed to be something completely outside what you would want for a party-based RPG so before you submit your stupid reply be sure to remove the paragraph using it as a straw man. This is about saving and encounter design.

WoW is a persistent server so you can't exactly load to a previous point in time. You can, however, re-attempt the failed encounter after returning to your body as often as you want. Basically, in WoW getting out of combat is like saving.

WoW raid design encounters are broken down like this:
-Bosses with patterns and unique mechanics that drop significant loot. Not limited to encounters with a single opponent. They are boss fights primarily due to their difficulty and reward.
-Trash encounters that often have a lesser version of an ability the boss they are guarding has. If the boss is not destroyed these will respawn in 4 hours or so.

There are three types of trash:
-Somewhat challenging groups or large single enemies.
-Patrols that move around the zone a lot and will complicate things if they find you already fighting. (Wandering monster!) Generally one patrol can be handled but 2 at once will wipe the party.
-Gauntlets of lesser enemies or small groups that must be pushed through and completed without the ability to rest/save. But you can always rest prior to the boss and they are challenging because they stress resources, not because they are long. They rarely take more than 5-10 min.

Now, if any of these trash groups is only partially completed and the party wipes, they respawn back to full health. Similar to a save game load. If you can't get past certain trash or boss, well too bad. Get a better strategy or come back later when you are stronger.

Generally RPGs only contain the first of those three types of trash encounters. (Kobolds hanging out behind locked doors.) RPGs could benefit a lot by implementing the other 2 types of trash encounters, especially the gauntlet concept. Adjusting the mixture of these encounters can also adjust the feeling of the dungeon.

For example, a mountain giant stronghold could primarily contain strong single trash fights and a higher percentage of boss encounters. The worg kennels would be full of patrols and trash groups would have 5-6 dogs instead of a single giant. The insect hive encounters could be mainly gauntlets where an endless stream of creatures are hatched and sent at you until you fight your way to the hatcher and slay it.
 

Drakron

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Well I not going to argue about healing because this is very basic design.

If you have no healing THEN the encounter MUST always be winnable, now with RPG mechanics there is always a random element to how damage is dealt/suffered and this even before going into a class system were thing get even more random.

So what happens after battle? if there is no healing mechanic ... as said, the only thing the designer must do is implement a system that restores the character health to full since ALL encounters must be winnable and no, forcing the player to "rest" is about the same except it breaks momentum and is just not going to work if there is a respawning system.

Also it infuriates me how needless complicated system have to be created that is just reinventing the wheel at best and making a wheel a triangle at worst.

Means to limit healing is easy ... YOU FUCKING HAVE FULL CONTROL OVER HOW MANY FUCKING ITEMS ARE IN THE GAME GAME WORLD!

It seems something some people MISSING ... you are all talking about the system as when release it have a mind of its won, even tabletop games that naturally have open system will STILL require the DM to say what items are there, if the DM really wants to limit healing item ... he can, no need to make overall complicated system that WILL also bit you on the ass when SOMEONE will actually have to run the damn thing.

Theory not always survive testing, its easy to put the top hat and monocle and go on about how your ideas would work when you dont actually have people RUNNING a system were they are in use.
 

felicity

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What kind of people really spam reload instead of using strategy? I mean most people aren't auspies if one wants it easy one could just look at a walkthrough, lower the difficulty slider or use cheat code/trainer whatever - anything is better than praying to the God of Random which practically is no different from spamming reload. I'd like to think most RPG gamers want to play game not dice. And even if they do prefer playing dice, there is no use trying to push them through. They won't play the way the game designer wants the game to be played if they don't want to. They will always find a way to circumvent your design.

If the issue is that players aren't sufficiently recognized for playing well then the better solution is to implement a good rating or achievement system that tracks players actions and give them gold and items as bonus.
 

Giauz Ragnacock

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As I've heard it stated, PCs usually deal more damage and and have less HP than bosses and some enemies that are not trash mobs. Except, barring a very few games and the little technicality in all the others of dying due to not being able to chug a potion in time, the PCs also effectively have more HP than is possible for any enemy to have in all of these games. So, in 99% of RPGs you like 99% freak'n IMMORTAL!!!


:smug:
 
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"Drakron said:
If you remove the player ability to save when he damn well pleases then EVERYTHING THAT GOES WRONG IS BECAUSE YOUR ARBITRARY PLACED SAVED POINTS.

But as the developer, every choice you make is arbitrary. Non-random loot for example. Why did you only hide resurrection scrolls in certain places instead of having them drop from monsters? What do you have against players having as many resurrection scrolls as they like?
 

Zomg

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felicity said:
What kind of people really spam reload instead of using strategy?

Realistic save scumming scenario:

When I am playing a grinder RPG I just rush through trash mobs atactically until I accidentally hit a set piece/boss. If the game is balanced enough that even bosses aren't totally mindless, in that fight I die or half the party is wiped, whatever, and I reload. I then cast buffs or use consumables/spells and then atactically plow through the set piece/boss fight.
 

GarfunkeL

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DamnedRegistrations said:
Oh excuse me. They're totally different and all games should be balanced around saving exactly as much as Garfunkel does, which is the correct amount.
Of course it isn't but you took your initial argument to illogical extent unless I misunderstood you - only few insane people will save/load every 30 seconds to ensure best possible outcome in every situation. Not only is it silly, it makes playing extremely slow and frustrating - you'd have to be some sort of OCD-Aspie to enjoy that. You however, were equating such behaviour with the much more common save/load-behaviour where the player loads after a major misfortune - near-total party kill/death of an important character, in essence cases where the hassle of loading and going through content again is less than the hassle of salvaging the situation. While in your warped logic these two behaviours are identical in some weird principle, they definitely aren't in the real world. Arbitrarily increasing player frustration without increasing player rewards does not a better game make.
 

Johannes

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GarfunkeL said:
common save/load-behaviour where the player loads after a major misfortune - near-total party kill/death of an important character, in essence cases where the hassle of loading and going through content again is less than the hassle of salvaging the situation.
Pretty much, players will choose the most convenient method between reloading and trying to keep on going. But obviously from that follows, that the farther your last save is, the more it will favor carefulness and trying to overcome bad situations.
It's not just a matter of convenience but it really does change the way one looks at the game. And of course it feels more rewarding to make some kind of comeback, instead of reloading.
 

RK47

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Try playing Hitman Blood Money at Pro level and you'll understand why enforced non saving can frustrate you.

I get the challenge, but man, the AI can be unpredictable at times. And having a 15 minutes flawless run being ruined by some random civilian walking in while you're dumping a corpse into a bit can get very depressing. I literally screamed rage as I unloaded my pistol at the bitch.

Lower options give limited saves, and that's a good trade off. 7 on normal, and 3 at slightly harder setting. It's a compromise.
 

Damned Registrations

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The point is you can't allow people to save anywhere without opening both extremes. The game needs to be 'difficult' even for OCD fuckers so it has crap that makes it tedious and stupid for people who aren't. And anyone who saves more than you will be OCD and anyone who saves less will by a larper fag making his own difficulty. Those are the arguments both sides will use, and they'll both be valid no matter how you make the combat work if unlimited saving is allowed. It's impossible to make combat where reloading won't make things exponentially easier. So making the player control how much reloading they do means completely abandoning any attempt at setting a difficulty for the game. And yet people want their unlimited saves and they want combat to be more difficult and less tedious. It's like asking for the combat to be more complex but also more accessible and faster. Does not compute. Mechanics like healing or turn based or anything else aren't to blame, yet here we are in yet another 'Mechanic X sucks and makes games terrible, everything would be fixed without it" thread, when clearly that isn't the case.

Dwarf fortress adventure mode doesn't let you use bullshit healing items, does it have teh best gameplay evar!!!one? Of course not. And I'd be hard pressed to find another turn+ stat based game with combat not involving healing items.
 

J1M

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DamnedRegistrations said:
The point is you can't allow people to save anywhere without opening both extremes. The game needs to be 'difficult' even for OCD fuckers so it has crap that makes it tedious and stupid for people who aren't. And anyone who saves more than you will be OCD and anyone who saves less will by a larper fag making his own difficulty. Those are the arguments both sides will use, and they'll both be valid no matter how you make the combat work if unlimited saving is allowed. It's impossible to make combat where reloading won't make things exponentially easier. So making the player control how much reloading they do means completely abandoning any attempt at setting a difficulty for the game. And yet people want their unlimited saves and they want combat to be more difficult and less tedious. It's like asking for the combat to be more complex but also more accessible and faster. Does not compute. Mechanics like healing or turn based or anything else aren't to blame, yet here we are in yet another 'Mechanic X sucks and makes games terrible, everything would be fixed without it" thread, when clearly that isn't the case.

Dwarf fortress adventure mode doesn't let you use bullshit healing items, does it have teh best gameplay evar!!!one? Of course not. And I'd be hard pressed to find another turn+ stat based game with combat not involving healing items.
Not true, the gauntlet style of encounter I detailed earlier gets around that.

Normally you can save and load anywhere, but not in a gauntlet since you are in combat for a protracted period of time. The developer has explicit control over when the player can save, but not where.
 

Damned Registrations

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The gauntlet fights aren't fundamentally different from any of the other fights though. The only difference between them and a single enemy with a ton of hp is if your dps isn't high enough they pile up and kill you. It's tantamount to making saving less powerful by making battles last longer. The developer can indeed control difficulty within the space between saves; but overall this has little impact. Using WoW as an example, compare the skill level required to go through a raid without a single wipe, to the skill level required to go through with as many wipes as you want. I recall they had at least one raid that rewarded extra loot on that basis.

Now take away that extra loot from the equation, because it would 'unbalance' the game (Further dungeons would either be easier than the one they got loot from but drop equal or better gear, or too difficult for players who couldn't manage the hardcore version) and offend players who can't get it. That's the scenario in pretty much any game with saving ever. The most skilled players who can run the raid without a wipe whine about not having a challenge from the popamole combat dumbed down for the wimps. But if they accede to those demands, the weaker players whine about not being able to see all the content or the game requiring too much work. How fucking bored do you think a guild that can run a raid on heroic mode with no wipes will be on normal mode wiping as much as they want?

In short:
DragoFireheart said:
WHERE THE FUCK IS MY ITEM MANAGEMENT CHALLENGE?
Play the game without ever reloading, there's your challenge you pussy. Will you die to an instagib unavoidable crit? They did that so people who could have played through without reloads but would play sloppy and reload anyways don't feel bored and unchallenged.
 

Johannes

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Long, timetaking fights where you cannot save midway do discourage reloading, just like long, timetaking whole dungeons where you cannot save midway.
 

DraQ

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Johannes said:
Excidium said:
Abusing a mechanic to the point of exploiting and complaining that it makes the game too easy. :roll:

Some people just need artificial restrictions on saving because otherwise they'll ruin their own fun.

step on a trap - reload

check what's in the other room - reload to prepare the perfect spells

critically hit - reload

ambushed - reload

miscast - reload

It must be really hard resisting the temptation of hex editing your party's characteristics.
And at what point does it become abusive exploiting?
When the tension is lost, because you subconsciously know that failure doesn't matter because reloads are infinite and come without cost.

Saving shouldn't be limited, bacause it's up to the player when he wants to leave the computer or have a backup for whatever reason, be it a technical failure or a lengthy linear sequence. Reloading (not just loading) is what should be penalized, because if player is allowed to screw with probability to his heart's content, the game should have something to counteract this.

The other alternative is ironman, which is effective, but rather harsh if the game isn't some roguelike.

DamnedRegistrations said:
Any combat with random elements will give you an enormous advantage with reload spamming and trial and error. Combat without random elements is much less interesting, and gives you the same advantage through different means: abuse of knowing exactly what the AI will do, since it's actions aren't random.
This.

It's impossible to make a battle balanced for everything between hardcore mode and constant saving
What if reloading changed the state of the game?

Also, reloading could be additionally disincentivized if a lot of failures didn't force reload.

As for healing, it is cheap and immersion breaking. Healing items, magical of technological can and should be present if they fit the setting, as they are excellent moderators of otherwise hardcore realism, but rapid healing in mid combat or even in mid of a dungeon crawl creates more problems than it solves and the items should be more of a costly way to avoid permanent crippling or delayed death due to wounds and infection, than a refill. Instead player should be given more options to avoid damage altogether, through avoidance, reconaissance, tactical planning, armour, protective spells, yielding, escape and such.
 

SCO

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RK47 said:
Try playing Hitman Blood Money at Pro level and you'll understand why enforced non saving can frustrate you.

I get the challenge, but man, the AI can be unpredictable at times. And having a 15 minutes flawless run being ruined by some random civilian walking in while you're dumping a corpse into a bit can get very depressing. I literally screamed rage as I unloaded my pistol at the bitch.

Lower options give limited saves, and that's a good trade off. 7 on normal, and 3 at slightly harder setting. It's a compromise.

Noob. Learn the schedules.
 

Damned Registrations

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Changed the game how? If it reloaded you at some predetermined location instead of where you saved, or with fewer resources than when you saved, sure, but that's not really the usual definition of saving/reloading.

As far as healing in combat goes, I consider it to fulfill the role of a buffer against the RNG fucking you in the skull before you make any decisions. Take a system where you have 1000 HP and 5000HP worth of healing items in 500 HP chunks. Now, you can have attacks deal anywhere from 1 to 999 damage and be survivable, and they can do that kind of damage from the very first round, while still allowing for a very long and complicated fight.

Now remove the healing: You either have the same 1000HP and reduce duration of the battle to match (Fewer decisions per battle, bad compromise to make IMO) or you have 6000HP that the healing pool would have given you. However, now those attacks that deal 999 damage don't really matter. They won't kill you if you aren't prepared by being in peak condition for them anymore. If you ramp up the damage of those attacks to match the larger HP pool, you have the same situation as the first scenario, where the battle can potentially be over in 2 rounds. This is all on the basis of a single character. With a party, you get the additional problem of what if the enemy randomly (either by actions targetting more often or succeeding more often) causes a disproportionate amount of damage to a single character? With combat healing you can use some of your healing pool to prevent that character's incapacitation. Without it, your options are pretty much limited to hoping it doesn't happen, since you can't prepare for random occurrences.

Putting that aside, a protective spell/armor/ability that gives you +1000 HP shielding and can be recast is just healing by another name. Mortal wounds and infections aren't any more or less interesting than curses or broken equipment when done properly. But you never lament the fact that those are missing from combat.

Implementation of healing is generally broken in availability and power relative to other actions, not in principle. I've seen it implemented pretty well in a lot of games with very tense combat. The principle of combat healing is essentially to add a hp pool that the player can strategically use to defend characters with. And there's always the option of making it less/non effective for any situations you want to as a game designer. You can add curses that make healing impossible, instant death attacks, diseases that make healing less effective, parasites that become more powerful when you heal their host, etc.

Regarding:" avoidance, reconaissance, tactical planning, armour, protective spells, yielding, escape and such."

Avoidance, tactical planning, protective spells all require anticipating the necessity for such. It'd be boring if you knew when every fireball, rocket, or giant trap door spider was going to rape your skinniest character's ass, so those can't cover everything.

Yielding and escape both amount to losing the battle and the enemy not deigning to murder you (Or never having been capable of murdering you in the case of escape). Which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but it has little bearing on giving the player interesting ways to fight a battle.

Armor gets used with healing anyways. It's just a random chance to not take (as much) damage (Or simply a larger HP pool). Combat is going to balanced around it's use anyways, since you'd have to be pretty retarded to have your knight run around in lingerie when armor is an option.

Which leaves recon. Definitely doesn't get used enough. However, unless you can do enough recon to predict everything that will happen (which would be dull), you're still going to be subject to the whims of the RNG.

If the culmination of all those factors is that a good player can play through a game without ever healing (Which is possible in say, Nethack, with some luck) you're still left with the issue of balance. Going through nethack without ever eating, healing, reading, or whatever floats your boat, is only more interesting than a normal playthrough for the sake of extra challenge. If the game's difficulty were changed to be as easy to complete without healing potions, and said potions removed, would that really be more interesting? Fewer items, fewer options, for what gain? Isn't weighing the value of a wand of digging charge against a healing potion and the risk of what may be waiting on the floor you escape to appealing to you?
 

DraQ

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DamnedRegistrations said:
Changed the game how? If it reloaded you at some predetermined location instead of where you saved, or with fewer resources than when you saved, sure, but that's not really the usual definition of saving/reloading.
How about:
Game keeps count of reloads (not just loads, but times when the load occurs when there is already a game in progress). This number is stored in a save file when the game is saved. The number is then used to fuck stuff up. Each time the number fucks stuff up, it's decremented. Fucking stuff up would generally consist of automatically overruling successful rolls with failures, autofailing sidequests under the guise of independent factors, crossing out randomly occurring and desirable uniques from droplists, overriding single occurences of valuable items or desirable random events, and so on. Various types of autofail can have different priorities and consume different amount of "fail points". Randomized stuff can fail randomly with probability dependent on the amount of FP, set stuff failing can be determined on the acquisition of respective "FP" and stored in the save file.

The logic behind this system is that reloads are detectable from in-universe POV by having a character or a party with unexplainable lucky streak. They fail less often than their ability would dictate, they don't make mistakes and so on. The proposed system would simply balance the checks - by pairing the lucky streak with an endless train of failures if need be. Good meta-mechanics, like saves should produce no artefacts detectable form within the gameworld, usual save and reload fails in this regard - in the most epic fashion imaginable.

Note that the system can be easily overriden by completely restarting the game to reload with impunity, but this is going to become tedious really quick, also motivating the player to minimize number of reloads.

Benefits of ironman combined with free save and reload? Here I come.


As far as healing in combat goes, I consider it to fulfill the role of a buffer against the RNG fucking you in the skull before you make any decisions. Take a system where you have 1000 HP and 5000HP worth of healing items in 500 HP chunks. Now, you can have attacks deal anywhere from 1 to 999 damage and be survivable, and they can do that kind of damage from the very first round, while still allowing for a very long and complicated fight.

Now remove the healing: You either have the same 1000HP and reduce duration of the battle to match (Fewer decisions per battle, bad compromise to make IMO) or you have 6000HP that the healing pool would have given you. However, now those attacks that deal 999 damage don't really matter.
First, instead of fewer decisions, make the decision more elementary and the simulation deeper - why does no one ever complain about good chance of one hit kills in milsims and semirealistic shooters? Because player has better control of his actions and more options at his disposal. RPG doesn't really mean anything beyond "characters can have different stats and both different stats and decisions made during the gameplay have the influence on the ingame events", there is nothing in RPGs that should preclude higher degree of control as long as character performance can be made meaningfully different.

Games shouldn't be so random, that the player's role boils down to banging his head powerlessly against the RNG, nor as independent of player's skill that the default response to a lost battle would "need moar grindan". Randomness should be used to force player to factor in different possible outcomes of component actions and use strategy that is tolerant to some of them being failures.

From this point of view a pool of healing items, spells or large HP pool simply means padding the "natural" length of a battle resulting from its base complexity.

With a party, you get the additional problem of what if the enemy randomly (either by actions targetting more often or succeeding more often) causes a disproportionate amount of damage to a single character? With combat healing you can use some of your healing pool to prevent that character's incapacitation.
You can just as well shift your formation to protect the wounded or something like that.

Without it, your options are pretty much limited to hoping it doesn't happen, since you can't prepare for random occurrences.
Well, the point of right tactics in a partially random game is preparing for them and minimizing their impact.

Putting that aside, a protective spell/armor/ability that gives you +1000 HP shielding and can be recast is just healing by another name.
No, since it needs to be cast beforehand and may be non-cumulative. Also, the problems with all sorts of recastables isn't recastables themselves, but the fact that the time tends to not matter in games, which encourages constant resting.

Mortal wounds and infections aren't any more or less interesting than curses or broken equipment when done properly. But you never lament the fact that those are missing from combat.
*I* do.

Implementation of healing is generally broken in availability and power relative to other actions, not in principle. I've seen it implemented pretty well in a lot of games with very tense combat. The principle of combat healing is essentially to add a hp pool that the player can strategically use to defend characters with.
I ganerally loathe the concept of HP pool as well, so yeah.
:smug:


And there's always the option of making it less/non effective for any situations you want to as a game designer. You can add curses that make healing impossible, instant death attacks, diseases that make healing less effective, parasites that become more powerful when you heal their host, etc.
Good, but I prefer my games designed from simulationist perspective, with addition of necessary gamist breaks from reality, rather than from gamist perspective, with simulationist breaks from.. uhh... I don't know what.


Avoidance, tactical planning, protective spells all require anticipating the necessity for such. It'd be boring if you knew when every fireball, rocket, or giant trap door spider was going to rape your skinniest character's ass, so those can't cover everything.
Tactics should be always assumed necessary and player should be prepared for all kinds of encounters. The rest are helped by recon.

Yielding and escape both amount to losing the battle and the enemy not deigning to murder you (Or never having been capable of murdering you in the case of escape). Which isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but it has little bearing on giving the player interesting ways to fight a battle.
But it gives player interesting ways to lose the battle and keep playing. RPGs tend to be designed with wide range of success and only fatal failures. This is just plain fucking wrong - there should be many degrees and types of failure and most of them should allow continued playing.

Armor gets used with healing anyways. It's just a random chance to not take (as much) damage (Or simply a larger HP pool).
Armour can be far more complex than that. Even it's single variable.

Combat is going to balanced around it's use anyways, since you'd have to be pretty retarded to have your knight run around in lingerie when armor is an option.
How about your mages and monks?

Isn't weighing the value of a wand of digging charge against a healing potion and the risk of what may be waiting on the floor you escape to appealing to you?
I'd prefer some other tradeoff instead, besides, healing items that are actually rare and valuable are less of an issue.

Healing potions simply aren't terribly interesting, break immersion, pose risk of hoarding and are a design risk in themselves - of making battles only difficult thanks to HP attrition.
 

Linkamus

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What do you guys think about how healing potions were done in Baldur's Gate? Can only drink once per round, and the healing potions didn't even heal you for that much. I'd like to know your opinions, as we are thinking about implementing a baldur's gate type potion system into our own game.

And as someone mentioned earlier, perhaps this discussion would be best had in the workshop? /shrug
 

Linkamus

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7hm said:
Again, healing systems are pointless without meaningful punishment for death. You can do whatever you want if you just have an anytime save / load system.

Not if the healing system is built to be a strategical and necessary part of combat. While I agree that potions should not be overpowered, priest heals and buffs I think are awesome, and should be powerful if used correctly.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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Regarding the reloading scheme: I think players would prefer the tedium of restarting the game to the loss of quests and loot etc. Essentially it boils down to this: Does it take longer to reload the game (With a restart) or to achieve the same desired result without reloading, by for example, returning to town to recover, stock up on supplies, and return with a different set of equipment/people/spells. Though I do love the karmic image of someone unwittingly reloading over and over and gimping themselves.

Regarding Hp Pool and randomness of combat, what kind of combat can be both interesting and non random? Using for example, the healer getting injured example, if the combat is so predictable you can insure he'll never get hurt merely by formation (No ranged attacks, no area effects, no sneak attacks, stealth, or movement magic. There goes your combat variety.) you'll use that formation every single time it is an option. That isn't interesting at all. It's akin to the 'tactical' element of a roguelike where a player fights in a hallway to mow down enemies one at a time. Realistic? Yes. (Aside from AI not waiting in groups along walls to murder you in rooms) Fighting a bunch of dumb animals/zombies/whatevers single file would improve your odds greatly and diminish the need for healing. But it doesn't add much depth to the combat when it's your only viable option, and an option that is present constantly during the entire game. Likewise with formation protecting your squishy vital characters. It makes combat similar to roguelike combat: You have a dozen wands, potions, scrolls, elbereth, a blindfold, a mirror, and a bag of tricks to use. Doesn't make fighting a master mind flayer (Something actually dangerous and non trivial) any more interesting. You simply make one decision and end the battle that way, predictably. If you make the wrong decision, the battle is over before you can correct the mistake anyways. Once you make the right decision, you never need to think about the situation again.

Making battles only difficult due to HP attrition has nothing to do with healing items and is purely a result of sloppy combat design. There are no healing potions in Master of Orion, but if you stripped out shields and weapon ranges, all the combat balance would have left is HP attrition. If you added healing potions, it wouldn't suddenly make shields or superior mobility/range/evasion irrelevant. Hoarding is again, trivially easy to fix. Prevent it. Make potions too heavy, or too dangerous to carry, or too rare to hoard. Healing potions in Nethack aren't THAT rare, especially with alchemy. The reason people don't walk around with 20 in inventory is they weigh a lot,can be shattered, and can be used to permanently raise stats instead. And enemies often kill you through means other than HP loss. No reason you can't apply all of that to Diablo, or any other game with healing potions/spells/medkits.

The key to interesting gameplay is a high degree of unpredictability coupled with a high degree of player skill influence. Final Fantasy combat is boring because of a lack of the later. Fallout combat for the same reason. Shoot for the eyes all you want, it won't prevent the enemies doing the same to you when you fail an outdoorsman roll and get one shotted through no fault of tactical planning, armor, or formation. Nethack lacks the former (For combat itself, the environment has plenty of randomness and makes the game a gem). Master of Orion lacks both in combat, but outside of it, both qualities are there: you have no idea what enemy designs you'll encounter and your skill in designing effective ships and balancing economy has a huge impact. As I see it, healing potions add a large degree of player skill influence, since using them properly can make or break a battle (or entire campaign, for that matter). There's no reason to remove them and replace them with other things that add player skill influence when you could simply add those things and have both.
 

Norfleet

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Master of Orion also permits a high degree of failure without ending the game, though: Getting your fleet shot down isn't exactly a game over, especially when you built it as a crappy, expendable one to begin with. In RPGs, if your hero is killed or permanently maimed, it's pretty much over. In Master of Orion, fleets can be reduced to debris, colonies can be bombed flat, and planets can be entirely destroyed, and yet it's not over...it could even be an improvement.
 

Damned Registrations

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True; but why can't you have that + healing? It has no intrinsic interaction with the ability to heal/repair things rapidly in combat.
 

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