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*head slam* Remake of Serpent Isle
- Thread starter Jaesun
- Start date
JasonNH said:
Mokah is on the SI project? Awesome! That will be a damn beautiful project then.
And always feel free to PM me any juicy links to your project if you have any. :D
Watcher Dragon
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
- Messages
- 5
Hi, this is Thepal, creator of the Serpent Isle remake.
Don't you think some of you are over-reacting a little? If you don't like the Oblivion engine, fine, but I find it hard to see how this is an affront to all things Ultima.
You've said that Exult is a perfectly good engine for running Serpent Isle. That's true, for us. We played Ultima back in the day, and we can deal with 15 year old gameplay. But what is so bad about wanting to see Serpent Isle in 3D, with an engine that is playable for people who didn't grow up with Ultima? And yes, I know that people new to Ultima can play Serpent Isle, and some enjoy it, but I've heard a lot more comments from people who just don't get why we are all on the "Ultima had so much more than almost any other game" bandwagon.
I'm not making a new Ultima for two main reasons:
- I've tried it before, and it was too much work to complete. Team members come and go, work progresses incredibly slowly... They just don't end up getting completed. Redemption is still going, which is awesome since it was practically dead at one stage until Corv revived it, but by the time it is released the engine will be over a decade old. Fortunately Morrowind is 3D, and uses controls similar to today's games, so it will still be playable by most people, if looking a little out-dated.
- I want to see Serpent Isle in 3D. I'm making it just like Serpent Isle, because as I said, it doesn't need to be changed. By that, I don't mean the engine. The engine is old. We can play it, because we're used to it. But even then, we are seeing a top-down, pixelated version. I've completed the Knight's test in 3D, with incredible graphical effects. I've walked the paths of Fawn, the buildings towering around me, and seen the walls turn pink and orange with the setting sun and their reflections in the water around them. Tell me that is a bad thing.
I find it hard to see where you are coming from, unless you really think the Oblivion engine is such a bad thing. Maybe that is just because the developers (of Oblivion, not SI) didn't put enough life into the world, something I am remedying. If you walk into the town hall at midday, you'll find the leaders of Monitor arguing over how to deal with the Goblin threat. As shown in the screenshot Ogg posted, you will see Andral actually carving the statue of Luther at the same time, if you go next door. Guards patrol the streets and light the lampposts at nighttime as they pass them, and NPCs turn off their candles on the way to bed. Lucilla even puts down food in front of people at the tavern when they sit there. If it was in Serpent Isle, it is in my game.
In order to get the remake finished in an acceptable amount of time, some things will be slightly altered (some houses for example are two-story instead of one, or shaped slightly differently). Retexturing Oblivion's models is something that needs to be done in order to make the remake not take years, though I am creating a huge amount of models from scratch as well. But apart from those minor changes (which actually make sense in many cases, and just couldn't be done in the Serpent Isle engine) it *is* Serpent Isle you are exploring.
Try the demo. Monitor was still fairly unfinished, but the Knight's Test is almost complete (the snake/rock room needs work still). It feels like the Knight's Test from the original game, to me at least. Plus you can go anywhere in the world, and the wilderness is mostly completed. Walk through Gorlab, or the Goblin forest. Imagine what it will be like once the characters and detail is added to it. I'm not remaking Serpent Isle because I think the original is bad. I love Serpent Isle and want to see it from a new perspective.
Don't you think some of you are over-reacting a little? If you don't like the Oblivion engine, fine, but I find it hard to see how this is an affront to all things Ultima.
You've said that Exult is a perfectly good engine for running Serpent Isle. That's true, for us. We played Ultima back in the day, and we can deal with 15 year old gameplay. But what is so bad about wanting to see Serpent Isle in 3D, with an engine that is playable for people who didn't grow up with Ultima? And yes, I know that people new to Ultima can play Serpent Isle, and some enjoy it, but I've heard a lot more comments from people who just don't get why we are all on the "Ultima had so much more than almost any other game" bandwagon.
I'm not making a new Ultima for two main reasons:
- I've tried it before, and it was too much work to complete. Team members come and go, work progresses incredibly slowly... They just don't end up getting completed. Redemption is still going, which is awesome since it was practically dead at one stage until Corv revived it, but by the time it is released the engine will be over a decade old. Fortunately Morrowind is 3D, and uses controls similar to today's games, so it will still be playable by most people, if looking a little out-dated.
- I want to see Serpent Isle in 3D. I'm making it just like Serpent Isle, because as I said, it doesn't need to be changed. By that, I don't mean the engine. The engine is old. We can play it, because we're used to it. But even then, we are seeing a top-down, pixelated version. I've completed the Knight's test in 3D, with incredible graphical effects. I've walked the paths of Fawn, the buildings towering around me, and seen the walls turn pink and orange with the setting sun and their reflections in the water around them. Tell me that is a bad thing.
I find it hard to see where you are coming from, unless you really think the Oblivion engine is such a bad thing. Maybe that is just because the developers (of Oblivion, not SI) didn't put enough life into the world, something I am remedying. If you walk into the town hall at midday, you'll find the leaders of Monitor arguing over how to deal with the Goblin threat. As shown in the screenshot Ogg posted, you will see Andral actually carving the statue of Luther at the same time, if you go next door. Guards patrol the streets and light the lampposts at nighttime as they pass them, and NPCs turn off their candles on the way to bed. Lucilla even puts down food in front of people at the tavern when they sit there. If it was in Serpent Isle, it is in my game.
In order to get the remake finished in an acceptable amount of time, some things will be slightly altered (some houses for example are two-story instead of one, or shaped slightly differently). Retexturing Oblivion's models is something that needs to be done in order to make the remake not take years, though I am creating a huge amount of models from scratch as well. But apart from those minor changes (which actually make sense in many cases, and just couldn't be done in the Serpent Isle engine) it *is* Serpent Isle you are exploring.
Try the demo. Monitor was still fairly unfinished, but the Knight's Test is almost complete (the snake/rock room needs work still). It feels like the Knight's Test from the original game, to me at least. Plus you can go anywhere in the world, and the wilderness is mostly completed. Walk through Gorlab, or the Goblin forest. Imagine what it will be like once the characters and detail is added to it. I'm not remaking Serpent Isle because I think the original is bad. I love Serpent Isle and want to see it from a new perspective.
Reject_666_6
Arcane
Dudebro, I have nothing against you remaking Serpent Isle in the Gamebryo engine, I just highly doubt you'll be able to pull it off. I've seen far less ambitious projects than this become vapourware (like porting Bloodlines to a current version of Source engine), so you've got a lot of work ahead of you.
Also, why not start with The Black Gate?
Also, why not start with The Black Gate?
Excommunicator
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,524
Good luck with what you're trying to do, but I just don't expect anything but a bare shell of the original SI experience. The engine is shit, and being reminded at every turn that you are actually just playing Oblivion is bound to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
Also, I would hope you are scaling the landscape up somewhat, as it will appear painfully small in first person 3D. You will see the entire world with the normal view distance.
Also, I would hope you are scaling the landscape up somewhat, as it will appear painfully small in first person 3D. You will see the entire world with the normal view distance.
Watcher Dragon
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
- Messages
- 5
Take a look at the demo, if you want to see the world scale. It is up-scaled a bit, to a point that seems about right for the game. Hmm... of the screenshots I have up at the moment this is probably the best one to show the scale of the world:
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... or-960.jpg
The town at the bottom is Monitor. So, from it you can just see the mountains in the distance. I was a substantial distance above the world in that screenshot however. In the actual game you can't see all over the map due to hills, mountains, city walls, trees, etc. The best place for a look around tends to be Sleeping Bull tower, as I have put that on top of a large hill, and you get a 360 view of the world (though you still can't see over the mountains to the snow and some other places)
I didn't start with the Black Gate because I only plan on making the one game. And I like Serpent Isle a tad more. That's pretty much the reasoning. Plus, Black Gate would be more time-consuming due to it having more NPCs, more towns, and a more open world.
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... or-960.jpg
The town at the bottom is Monitor. So, from it you can just see the mountains in the distance. I was a substantial distance above the world in that screenshot however. In the actual game you can't see all over the map due to hills, mountains, city walls, trees, etc. The best place for a look around tends to be Sleeping Bull tower, as I have put that on top of a large hill, and you get a 360 view of the world (though you still can't see over the mountains to the snow and some other places)
I didn't start with the Black Gate because I only plan on making the one game. And I like Serpent Isle a tad more. That's pretty much the reasoning. Plus, Black Gate would be more time-consuming due to it having more NPCs, more towns, and a more open world.
Watcher Dragon
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
- Messages
- 5
I've posted a couple more screenshots with a view of Fawn to give a bit of an idea of the scale.
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... ombull.jpg
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... aerial.jpg
Note: Some of the distance textures/models don't show up properly yet.
The forest in the background looks deceptively small in that screenshot. Those trees are actually kinda huge, and in the middle of that forest you can't see the water on one side or the mountains on the other through the trees. And the forest does look a little better than the pixelated trees that currently show up in the distance when you're up close:
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... st-960.jpg
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... ombull.jpg
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... aerial.jpg
Note: Some of the distance textures/models don't show up properly yet.
The forest in the background looks deceptively small in that screenshot. Those trees are actually kinda huge, and in the middle of that forest you can't see the water on one side or the mountains on the other through the trees. And the forest does look a little better than the pixelated trees that currently show up in the distance when you're up close:
http://etherealsoftware.com.au/ultima/w ... st-960.jpg
Excommunicator
Arcane
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- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,524
+ You need to scale your buildings up, at least along the X and Y axis to spread over more land. Monitor looks like a scattered fishing village. You need crowded streets if you are to communicate that sense of metropolis with only a small number of buildings. Since Oblivion uses interior cells, it isn't going to matter about exterior size.
+ Make sure you take some small liberties and populate that flat, empty land in between towns with terrain features. Give it some subtle elevation and trees, even if the original didn't have it. The empty spaces weren't a strength of the original, just make sure they are still recognisable as the original locations.
+ Fawn looks very good but it too could be scaled up superficially to give a better impression. If it was me, I'd probably add in many more inaccessible buildings just to get that feeling of a city.
+ Make sure you make proper effort on those faces. SI faces are perhaps the best portraits used in any game.
+ If you want to be authentic, maybe brighten those colours up (i.e. grass) to make them identifiably Ultima 7.
Just my thoughts
+ Make sure you take some small liberties and populate that flat, empty land in between towns with terrain features. Give it some subtle elevation and trees, even if the original didn't have it. The empty spaces weren't a strength of the original, just make sure they are still recognisable as the original locations.
+ Fawn looks very good but it too could be scaled up superficially to give a better impression. If it was me, I'd probably add in many more inaccessible buildings just to get that feeling of a city.
+ Make sure you make proper effort on those faces. SI faces are perhaps the best portraits used in any game.
+ If you want to be authentic, maybe brighten those colours up (i.e. grass) to make them identifiably Ultima 7.
Just my thoughts
Watcher Dragon
Novice
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2011
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- 5
It shouldn't be slow... my connection is always fine with it from various locations.
As for creative license with things, I'm trying my best to just make the world like it was in Serpent Isle. I'll definately populate that sparse wilderness near Fawn with things, at the moment I haven't focused on it yet (it just has randomly generated rocks and bushes). Monitor works pretty well at its current size, I think. It looks a bit bare and spread out from that far above, but on the ground things are about the same distance apart as in the original.
I really need to stay away from making my own judgements on what to "improve" from Serpent Isle, as it would make the remake take a lot longer, and could also get rid of the Serpent Isle feel if I do it wrong. The cities are about the right size I think... once you walk around in them I think you'll see that scaling them up would be a bad move. They are quite large.
As for creative license with things, I'm trying my best to just make the world like it was in Serpent Isle. I'll definately populate that sparse wilderness near Fawn with things, at the moment I haven't focused on it yet (it just has randomly generated rocks and bushes). Monitor works pretty well at its current size, I think. It looks a bit bare and spread out from that far above, but on the ground things are about the same distance apart as in the original.
I really need to stay away from making my own judgements on what to "improve" from Serpent Isle, as it would make the remake take a lot longer, and could also get rid of the Serpent Isle feel if I do it wrong. The cities are about the right size I think... once you walk around in them I think you'll see that scaling them up would be a bad move. They are quite large.
How exactly will you be handling the ancient Ophidian ruins? Do you have someone (or a large team) doing all the custom artwork needed just for this?
Excommunicator
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,524
Watcher Dragon said:
Putting it in a first person 3d engine is about as big a liberty as you can take. It logically follows that by committing to that decision, you will be open to other decisions that aid in translating the game to that new engine. Your decision though.
The most difficult parts will be the Ophidian architecture as Jaesun pointed out, and not having the means to get that right will be your biggest shortcoming. The above land is effortless by comparison
Oblivion engine? Seriously? Morrowind engine might've been okay for this, but Ultima on that piece of shit engine...
naah.
naah.
Zeus
Cipher
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
- Messages
- 1,523
Why would anyone use Exult instead of Dosbox?
Exult is literally a fan remake with official graphics pasted on top. As far as I know, they have no idea what went on under the engine and were guessing at best. I mean, I guess if I couldn't figure out how to set up Dosbox, or didn't care about stealing, party animations, and absolutely needed a "Multiracial Avatar," I'd pick Exult. But knowing that it's not a true engine port, just a close approximation, would make me pick Dosbox for the original experience.
Exult is literally a fan remake with official graphics pasted on top. As far as I know, they have no idea what went on under the engine and were guessing at best. I mean, I guess if I couldn't figure out how to set up Dosbox, or didn't care about stealing, party animations, and absolutely needed a "Multiracial Avatar," I'd pick Exult. But knowing that it's not a true engine port, just a close approximation, would make me pick Dosbox for the original experience.
Zeus said:
That's not really the topic here, but feel free to make a Exult or DOSBOX which is better and why? thread. Then's I'd answer you.
Watcher Dragon
Novice
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(I'll answer the Exult question quickly anyway... If I'm actually wanting to play Ultima 7 properly, I use DOSBox. A lot of things in Exult just aren't the same, most noticeably combat. When making my remake, Exult is open all the time, as it lets me look around and see what there is to see)
As for the Ophidian ruins question, I'll be making whatever models I need for it myself (as I've had to do a lot so far). They may not be perfect, but they should be around the same level of quality as the original Oblivion models in order for them to fit in with the rest of the game.
There are definately some decisions that I am making to convert it to 3D. Some houses are rotated different directions, as the doors being to the south and east on every house was a necessity in the U7 engine. It looks silly to have that in an actual 3D town. Sleeping Bull tower I put on a hill, since it creates an awesome "moment" when you first climb that hill and see the world laid out in front of you after first leaving Monitor. There's all sorts of things like that that I'm incorporating, usually with reasons behind them.
But I'm keeping as much the same as I can, as I said. If you walk into the provisioner in Fawn, you will find glass-top counters with a sextant, mirror, wineskin, backpack, bedroll, etc inside it, and a room with a loom, spinning wheel, etc (though the shop is now two-stories high and placed slightly differently).
As for the numerous comments on Oblivion being a bad engine, it really isn't. It can do everything Morrowind can do and more. The main reason Oblivion seemed to fall short of our Ultima-like dreams is that the developers made the choice not to make the most of the engine. People go about their lives by going to work, then to bed where they sleep, but when they are at those locations they just kinda stand there and have generic conversations occasionally. The engine allows for a lot more to take place.
I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to the Oblivion engine. What makes it so bad in your opinion? (it is especially strange when it is called worse than Morrowind's engine since there is nothing that Morrowind can do that Oblivion can't... Oblivion just has better graphics and some more features) Maybe if you let me know specifics that you find bad about the engine, I can help alleviate your fears (as I have messed with many of the features with Oblivion, such as dialogue, schedules and companions, in order to make it more Ultima-like)
As for the Ophidian ruins question, I'll be making whatever models I need for it myself (as I've had to do a lot so far). They may not be perfect, but they should be around the same level of quality as the original Oblivion models in order for them to fit in with the rest of the game.
There are definately some decisions that I am making to convert it to 3D. Some houses are rotated different directions, as the doors being to the south and east on every house was a necessity in the U7 engine. It looks silly to have that in an actual 3D town. Sleeping Bull tower I put on a hill, since it creates an awesome "moment" when you first climb that hill and see the world laid out in front of you after first leaving Monitor. There's all sorts of things like that that I'm incorporating, usually with reasons behind them.
But I'm keeping as much the same as I can, as I said. If you walk into the provisioner in Fawn, you will find glass-top counters with a sextant, mirror, wineskin, backpack, bedroll, etc inside it, and a room with a loom, spinning wheel, etc (though the shop is now two-stories high and placed slightly differently).
As for the numerous comments on Oblivion being a bad engine, it really isn't. It can do everything Morrowind can do and more. The main reason Oblivion seemed to fall short of our Ultima-like dreams is that the developers made the choice not to make the most of the engine. People go about their lives by going to work, then to bed where they sleep, but when they are at those locations they just kinda stand there and have generic conversations occasionally. The engine allows for a lot more to take place.
I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to the Oblivion engine. What makes it so bad in your opinion? (it is especially strange when it is called worse than Morrowind's engine since there is nothing that Morrowind can do that Oblivion can't... Oblivion just has better graphics and some more features) Maybe if you let me know specifics that you find bad about the engine, I can help alleviate your fears (as I have messed with many of the features with Oblivion, such as dialogue, schedules and companions, in order to make it more Ultima-like)
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