Guild Wars World Preview Event

[Shevek]

Even for warriors (who benefitted from the preponderance of iron drops), I felt the crafting requirements were too high. If this is supposed to be a fast paced, casual friendly game then the item system should reflect that. Instead the devs have decided to put in a very punitive timesink while saying that their game has no treadmill.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well the game does have to have a hook. I had the most basic armor even until the last day, with only my boots upgraded and I performed just fine in both PVP and the Missions. While I'd like to see requirements lessened, I don't think it's too big an issue. I like to think of the armor as an added bonus and not as something that actually requires your attention. In World of Warcraft, not having armor your level is akin to committing suicide.

 

[Shevek]

The "hook" copout could be used for any number of things from a level treadmill to a focus on raid "flagging" to other similar timesinks. I agree that without these hooks, as you call them, people would play less but one hook is no more legitimate than another. A timesink by any other name is still a timesink - its all the same. The fundamental issue with these titles is that no MMOG has yet been done that can get longtime players without attempting to ensare them with timesinks. In other words, fun and content alone dont do the job - you have addict players by giving them illusionary and time-entensive goals. I just think its the height of hypocrisy for these guys to claim their game is different and has no treadmill and so on when they are doing the same thing with a different spin on it.

 

[Sol Invictus]

The difference is that this hook isn't one that makes you suffer. In World of Warcraft or any other mmorpg, not having the best equipment for your level is, as I said before, tantamount to committing suicide. Games like those force you to advance. Guild Wars does not. The level cap is set pretty low, too - I believe around 30 or 40, so you can't become exponentially 'better' than other players just by playing a lot more than they do.

 

[Mendoza]

The difference is that this hook isn't one that makes you suffer. In World of Warcraft or any other mmorpg, not having the best equipment for your level is, as I said before, tantamount to committing suicide. Games like those force you to advance. Guild Wars does not. The level cap is set pretty low, too - I believe around 30 or 40, so you can't become exponentially 'better' than other players just by playing a lot more than they do.

I thought 20 was the level limit?

 

[Surlent]

It really doesn't matter whether Guild Wars has time sinks or not.
It's doesn't have monthly fee.
In that sense, every single player game could have time sinks and tread mills as well.

Expansions are the source of income to developer and you don't need to buy them, if you don't want to and still enjoy the game.

 

[Sol Invictus]

20 could be the level limit, I'm not sure. That was the limit in the Preview. You started at level 15 and capped at 20. I don't know if that stays in the retail but according to the developers on the VN boards, it hasn't been decided. It'll be a low number in that range, though.

Since the focus of the game is to have balance in both PVP and missions, rather than having a levelling race, having a low level cap really works out. The game becomes more about skill and fun rather than levelling up as you would in an MMORPG.

Surlent is right, too. It doesn't matter if the game has time sinks. Diablo 2 and Dungeon Siege both had time sinks in the form of equipment, upgrades (runes), and new skills. But guess what? Beyond buying the games an their expansions (which were entirely optional), they were both free to play. Just look at how vibrant the Diablo 2 non-expansion pack community is. Instead of trading in high level runes and elite items as Expansion players do, they spend most of their time trading really good Rares. Those are time sinks. Do they detract from the game?

Nope.

 

[Mendoza]

20 could be the level limit, I'm not sure. That was the limit in the Preview. You started at level 15 and capped at 20. I don't know if that stays in the retail but according to the developers on the VN boards, it hasn't been decided. It'll be a low number in that range, though.

Since the focus of the game is to have balance in both PVP and missions, rather than having a levelling race, having a low level cap really works out. The game becomes more about skill and fun rather than levelling up as you would in an MMORPG.

Surlent is right, too. It doesn't matter if the game has time sinks. Diablo 2 and Dungeon Siege both had time sinks in the form of equipment, upgrades (runes), and new skills. But guess what? Beyond buying the games an their expansions (which were entirely optional), they were both free to play. Just look at how vibrant the Diablo 2 non-expansion pack community is. Instead of trading in high level runes and elite items as Expansion players do, they spend most of their time trading really good Rares. Those are time sinks. Do they detract from the game?

Nope.

I don't really see the point in any levels past 20 anyway, though I can see why you'd want them early on so that players feel they're becoming more powerful and progressing on from killing weak monsters to tougher ones (and since they're the only mechanism for increasing attributes, except through items).

I know there are monsters who go past 20 though, there's a level 30 bone dragon around somewhere, and no doubt plenty that I haven't heard off yet, so I guess the levels are there if they want to use them (although the leveling seems a very simple progression anyway).

In terms of time sinks, I can see there being a definite 'gotta catch 'em all' mechanic in all the hard to get elite skills, which could get people playing for a while to get them. It certainly seems better to me than a level sink, which is just a monster killing grind, and an item sink, with it's random element and potential for tedious boss runs. Finding new skills is all about discovering new areas and using your abilities to best the monsters with the skills you're missing. The other two are just about repetition.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, Guild Wars is definitely a par above a lot of other games due to its skill catching mechanic which the developers refer to as a similar mechanic used in Magic the Gathering for custom decks. It's really nice to see a game that allows you to change around your skilldeck to adapt to missions, so the game is mainly skill based (or even strategic) rather than being a grindfest or levelling treadmill with little to no character customization.

The fact that you're allowed to pick two classes in addition to choosing your skills leaves room for a lot of variety.

 

[Radoteur]

Eh, what's so lame about Warrior/Monk or Necro/Mesmer?

I used Warrior/Monk, and although I usually outlasted most of my allies, I wasn't invincible.

 

[Shevek]

Bottom line, the GW devs are using a bunch of rhetoric to try to say how their MMO has no treadmill, no grinding and so on when it actually does. You have an item treadmill you have to farm drops to grind through. Whether or not this detracts from the game is, to me, irrelevant. Every "casual" gamer (and some not so casual ones) I spoke to during the event complained about item crafting. They were spending time bartering. They were spending time doing the same missions over and over (fairly mind numbing since the missions became less interesting and more 'routine' as you did them again and again). Sorry, but I just do not see the difference in grind for 4 hours to get some level that nets you some hp, ac, mana, etc or spending some similar time to get some armor that nets you similar things. Whether or not the grinding gives the players an appreciable increase in power or not is irrellevant since the ultimate goal is to hook players with the grind regardless. You cant come and try to say that your game is ideologically opposed to timesinks, grinds and so on when its success is ultimately determined by the ability of said game to, as Exitium put it, "hook" people with timesinks, grinds, etc. Sorry, no dice. That is just hypocrisy.


Also, most good single player games do NOT have time sinks. I did not need to grind in Fallout. I did not need to grind in Baldur's Gate. I did not grind in Grim Fandango. You go through, you see the story, maybe make some choices, maybe fight some battles and you are done. Most times, if some single player game forces the player to grind at any point it is viewed as a negative. MMOGs have the intrinsic issue that they must sustain a playerbase, and since they cant cant write the game as fast as players play it, they need timesinks to do it. Trying to evade that core contention for marketting purposes makes me giggle.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You're comparing an action RPG with a single player game like Fallout? Gods. Tell you what: you did have to grind in Diablo, Diablo 2, Dungeon Siege, and Nox.

So much for your argument.

 

[Mendoza]

I just realised the cover DVD for my pc magazine has a code on it to try one of the beta weekends (took a while to find it though), so I think I'll be giving it another go before release. Normally I wouldn't want to spoil the game, but I'd like to see some of the lower level content, and particularly the PvP (which I didn't get round to last weekend) since this seems to be the endgame, just to confirm I'm happy with it.

It's a pretty cool surprise to realise you get another peek for free, anyway.

 

[Shevek]

You're comparing an action RPG with a single player game like Fallout? Gods. Tell you what: you did have to grind in Diablo, Diablo 2, Dungeon Siege, and Nox.

So much for your argument.

Actually, Im responding to Surlent there. If you just _read_ a few posts up, Im sure you will catch it. Also, I do not contest whether or not you had to grind in said games. However,I do claim that the grind in those titles is in no way a strength. I also suggest that for a guy like yourself who so vehemently spewed anger over the grind in WoW and other recent titles to come out in defense of a grind elsewhere is interesting to say the least - though ultimately irrelevant to my point. Your remarks seem to miss the fact that I have not really made a qualitative judgement of the grind in a MMOG (though I have commented on it in more single player titles). I have just been saying that I think the PR boys for GW are hypocrites. Please, stop trying to guide my post to fit your agenda. Deal with my points or dont - just do not distort them.

 

[suibhne]

A little late to this party I am, but I played a Ranger/Mesmer throughout the WPE and the beta weekend and I have just one question to add to this discussion: where were the dynamic maps?

Tthe maps are large and fairly free-form, and I like the overall design. I really enjoyed playing the game, particularly once I was able to try out more advanced tactics with a stable group for a few hours last weekend. But I think I remember early previews and interviews describing some of the maps as being at least somewhat dynamic, where players would have the opportunity to alter the landscape or otherwise change the battlefield, and I didn't see anything on any of the maps that was even minutely interactive. Did I miss something, or did I misunderstand early info about the game?

 

[Astromarine]

what I know is that the maps are not dynamic in the sense of destructible geometry or anything. What I think he means, and we saw a possible example in the beta, is that as the chapters move on the world will be changed in response to player behaviour. The example I meant is the tutorial map. On the WPE it was this nice floral landscape, and on the beta the same map with changed textures was used as a part of the Ascalon tutorial, indicating that it is pretty easy to do. Also, in the Gates of Kryta mission, you get to play in the original tutorial map, but now changed by an undead invasion. New paths are present, previously inaccessible areas are now open, the layout changes, etc.

Oh, and Shevek: You will be glad to know that the crating drops seemed to be MUCH improved in this weekend. I managed to complete my level 10 monk armor without once "looking" for drops, just doing the normal PvE content. Each salvage of an undead item was giving me 2 or 3 cloth