-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
GRAVEN - dark fantasy first person action puzzler from 3D Realms
- Thread starter geno
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 97,508
mayo is a fucking retard zoom eternal fan who thinks zoom eternal "invented weapon switching" and he's really just fully retarded... case in point is this very video where he cries about not being told to crouch jump and not understanding why anyone would ever do such a thing (proof his first fps game was probably zoom eternal as well)
Graven may or may not be shit, haven't played it yet but Mayo is a fucking RETARD jfc the amount of e-celebs codexers slobber over is insane
Beans00
Augur
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2008
- Messages
- 988
Is this some type of weird projection cope because you forcibly or accidently overdosed your cat on anti depressants? Don't try to deny it btw I have heard it from trusted sources.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 1,871,752
So Graven is still bad then? Shame. I'd hoped it would improve during EA.
Another one?
Another one?
DemonKing
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 6,021
Gave the full game a try and have to say it's ok - atmosphere and music are great. Combat is nothing special but there's plenty of secrets to track down and you can experiment a bit to see how things respond to various interactions. You actually have to read stuff to solve some puzzles so if that's confronting then probably not for you.
No quicksave or map though so with the sprawling world it's probably played best when you have a decent chunk of time to absorb it than in short bites.
It's not top tier but certainly a decent distraction with a nice old school vibe.
No quicksave or map though so with the sprawling world it's probably played best when you have a decent chunk of time to absorb it than in short bites.
It's not top tier but certainly a decent distraction with a nice old school vibe.
Baron Dupek
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 1,870,858
I remember trying first demo (published during some Steam fest iirc) and didn't like it much.
Didn't play it expecting boomer shooter/dynami FPS either, still left underwhelming impression.
Didn't play it expecting boomer shooter/dynami FPS either, still left underwhelming impression.
Zboj Lamignat
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2012
- Messages
- 5,554
Apparently the final version doesn't have a map or manual saving, but features co-op and checkpoint respawn system where player loses 50% of his gold when killed? Purging this from my wishlist seems to have been the right call.
Baron Dupek
Arcane
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 1,870,858
People managed to find enjoyment in coop even with legendary tier garbage like Dungeon Lords so maybe this is the way?
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2018
- Messages
- 1,316
Remember being kinda hyped about this until i too have played that demo.
Couldn't even describe at first what was wrong with it exactly. Too much annoying crate crushing, not being allowed to do anything fun with magic, melee combat felt plain 'wrong' - probably the sum of all of these annoyances combined. Full version appears to have added even more annoying issues into the mix judging by all these reviews and comments.
Shame, the concept of a first-person dungeon crawler in which you explore pretty locales filled with cool monsters, loot, secrets and that plays somewhat like a Dark Messiah appeals to me tremendously.
Couldn't even describe at first what was wrong with it exactly. Too much annoying crate crushing, not being allowed to do anything fun with magic, melee combat felt plain 'wrong' - probably the sum of all of these annoyances combined. Full version appears to have added even more annoying issues into the mix judging by all these reviews and comments.
Shame, the concept of a first-person dungeon crawler in which you explore pretty locales filled with cool monsters, loot, secrets and that plays somewhat like a Dark Messiah appeals to me tremendously.
from the in-game manual:
I agree it's kinda unnecessary, but come on.
It's not like it'll put anyone's fingers in a twist.
Besides, there are some games where it shouldn't or couldn't be automated, because the mid-air "crouch" is actually active only a limited amount of time so you gotta get your timing right to pull it off.
Not sure if this is one of those games, of course. Kind of doubt it.
It's a dumb thing to complain about, either way.
The lack of a map is pure decline, though.
Take me, I play games in a rotation. I might play a game for a few hours and then come back a couple days later. Someone might not have time to play for days. Etc.
Do you think I'll remember every nook and cranny several days later?
Fuck that. Give me a map. Doesn't have to be great or precise, just something.
DemonKing
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 6,021
Must admit I've soured on this a bit - the lack of a map/compass hurts a bit when you're reduced to directions like "it's under a bridge running parallel to the lighthouse" buried in your journal and the fairly sprawling maps. Also I had a few sidequests to do in Act 1 but stumbled onto the final boss fight and was instantly dumped into Act 2/new location on completion. Naturally new save point is set there meaning I can't reload and finish up what was outstanding as I could with a manual save system.
It's still an ok game but would be much better with a few simple fixes.
It's still an ok game but would be much better with a few simple fixes.
they had a patch which added more stamina, an npc in each hub that will heal you and the game now drops the amount of coins you lost on death in the world so it's easier to regain gold...
I started playing and did the lighthouse quest and the game definitely has flaws but it's also kind of fun if you are into a slower paced fps games. I kind of like not having an automap or detailed maps since you need to read your journal to know what your goal is and then find it, I do think the game would benefit from just a static map of the area with landmarks highlighted so you could at least look around to compare the map to what you are seeing and get your bearings. a simple compass just to show your orientation would be nice too. I don't think either of these would be too difficult to implement.
DemonKing from what I've read once you finish the game you can teleport between each hub in order to complete the side missions/find secrets, etc.
I started playing and did the lighthouse quest and the game definitely has flaws but it's also kind of fun if you are into a slower paced fps games. I kind of like not having an automap or detailed maps since you need to read your journal to know what your goal is and then find it, I do think the game would benefit from just a static map of the area with landmarks highlighted so you could at least look around to compare the map to what you are seeing and get your bearings. a simple compass just to show your orientation would be nice too. I don't think either of these would be too difficult to implement.
DemonKing from what I've read once you finish the game you can teleport between each hub in order to complete the side missions/find secrets, etc.
this is the most fair review I've seen and I agree with everything except I've not experienced any crashes so far so I can't comment on that.
you agree with 6:20 too?
quite good review.
In section "solid mechanics" he describe tons of cool interaction using spells (use fire to burn enemy shield/ use ice to freeze water/ use lighting to stun - use for puzzle etc.), but then he start bitching that spells could be more powerful than weapons... which make me thing he wants a "win button" so he could be proud he "solved" graven.
after this review, i want to buy Graven, but then I realise I already have it in my steam librabry for years. And now i cant be bother to install it, i will just go to play aow1, dow1 or fantasy general2.
Copy-pasting my own Steam review here
Not too much that wasn't said already, but anyway:
I have rarely seen a game so much at odds with itself, where the bad parts will constantly make you question if you want to go on despite the excellent parts.
If there was a neutral rating, I'd pick that, but since the game is currently rated worse than what it deserves, I'll go for thumbs up.
Almost everything in this game is either good to excellent or bad to terrible.
Let's start with the good:
- The atmosphere and everything around it (graphics style, sound effects, soundscape, effects, writing) is possibly the best I've seen in a retro-styled FPS. If it is possible to do better than Graven in this regard, I don't know how.
- The sense of exploration and rewards you get for it are excellent. Secrets aplenty with the best of them being hinted at, too.
- Level design is truly well done. Again, it'd be hard to do better.
- Almost every weapon is incredibly fun to use and upgrade.
But the bad, man... the bad:
- No map. And the levels are both open and HUGE. It has nothing to do with handholding, either, nobody wants a perfect map, but just SOMETHING to help you navigate roughly. There isn't a single good reason why a game like this shouldn't have a map.
- Inane save system, truly abhorrent. When you die, you lose some gold and respawn at the latest checkpoint. Okay, fine. But when you "save & quit", any sane person would expect you to continue from where you left off. But nope, instead when you launch the game again, you start from the hub - and have to spend minutes to get back to where you were, with all enemies respawned. What the actual f*ck...
- Stamina system. Just why? A stamina system adds nothing to a game like this. This ain't Dark Souls, not even close.
- Trash quick bar & inventory system. Some weapons take three (!!!!!!) slots in your quick bar. You are constantly in your inventory, moving weapons or potions in and out so you can use them. Oh, and being in the inventory pauses the game, so there is really no point to this whatsoever, the ONLY thing this does is waste your time.
- Combat is often janky. Especially melee is mostly made pointless by enemies sliding or even teleporting around regardless of their animation state. And melee damage is incredibly dangerous, parrying with the sword cannot parry everything, so why would you ever do melee unless it is some stray easy enemy? Projectiles often get stuck in mid air, too.
- Bugs, glitches, getting stuck on geometry. Despite a few years in early access, the game still feels like a beta sometimes.
If the devs just got out of their own asses and added a rudimentary map with notes, fixed the save & quit, removed the stamina system and made all weapons just take a single quick slot space, this would easily be an 80% game despite the other issues that wouldn't be so easy to fix.
Not too much that wasn't said already, but anyway:
I have rarely seen a game so much at odds with itself, where the bad parts will constantly make you question if you want to go on despite the excellent parts.
If there was a neutral rating, I'd pick that, but since the game is currently rated worse than what it deserves, I'll go for thumbs up.
Almost everything in this game is either good to excellent or bad to terrible.
Let's start with the good:
- The atmosphere and everything around it (graphics style, sound effects, soundscape, effects, writing) is possibly the best I've seen in a retro-styled FPS. If it is possible to do better than Graven in this regard, I don't know how.
- The sense of exploration and rewards you get for it are excellent. Secrets aplenty with the best of them being hinted at, too.
- Level design is truly well done. Again, it'd be hard to do better.
- Almost every weapon is incredibly fun to use and upgrade.
But the bad, man... the bad:
- No map. And the levels are both open and HUGE. It has nothing to do with handholding, either, nobody wants a perfect map, but just SOMETHING to help you navigate roughly. There isn't a single good reason why a game like this shouldn't have a map.
- Inane save system, truly abhorrent. When you die, you lose some gold and respawn at the latest checkpoint. Okay, fine. But when you "save & quit", any sane person would expect you to continue from where you left off. But nope, instead when you launch the game again, you start from the hub - and have to spend minutes to get back to where you were, with all enemies respawned. What the actual f*ck...
- Stamina system. Just why? A stamina system adds nothing to a game like this. This ain't Dark Souls, not even close.
- Trash quick bar & inventory system. Some weapons take three (!!!!!!) slots in your quick bar. You are constantly in your inventory, moving weapons or potions in and out so you can use them. Oh, and being in the inventory pauses the game, so there is really no point to this whatsoever, the ONLY thing this does is waste your time.
- Combat is often janky. Especially melee is mostly made pointless by enemies sliding or even teleporting around regardless of their animation state. And melee damage is incredibly dangerous, parrying with the sword cannot parry everything, so why would you ever do melee unless it is some stray easy enemy? Projectiles often get stuck in mid air, too.
- Bugs, glitches, getting stuck on geometry. Despite a few years in early access, the game still feels like a beta sometimes.
If the devs just got out of their own asses and added a rudimentary map with notes, fixed the save & quit, removed the stamina system and made all weapons just take a single quick slot space, this would easily be an 80% game despite the other issues that wouldn't be so easy to fix.
Last edited:
stick doesnt have block option, so you need do this annoying dance back and forth to avoid enemy attacks and land yours.
timed parries are very satysfying in all games i played
there is kick option, but it dont push even the starting zombie back.
i think stamina is ok, but agree that it dont add anything to the game.
environment is superb, very detailed. its very nice exploration game with sloppy combat - "janky".
Axe combat in quake 1 (arcande dimension on medieval maps) feels much better. its not even close to Amid Evil.
edit:
timed parries are very satysfying in all games i played
there is kick option, but it dont push even the starting zombie back.
i think stamina is ok, but agree that it dont add anything to the game.
environment is superb, very detailed. its very nice exploration game with sloppy combat - "janky".
Axe combat in quake 1 (arcande dimension on medieval maps) feels much better. its not even close to Amid Evil.
edit:
i just installed good old heretic, who has normal combat system (not this multiple classess with 2 weapons and 2x mana pickups).
and make random obsidian map with some gameplay mod that flavour i like the most.
i have much more fun... so much i played 2x maps.
its totaly different game... there is instant action instead this slowly build up tension in Graven.
game throw tons of enemies at you, give you some tools and you need to do your best.
Doom combat is better, because your each action have reaction.
you block projectiles. enemies get locked in pain when you hit them.
game is more responsive i would say.
and im not really incline to go back to Graven, even if i have whole sunday free.
and make random obsidian map with some gameplay mod that flavour i like the most.
i have much more fun... so much i played 2x maps.
its totaly different game... there is instant action instead this slowly build up tension in Graven.
game throw tons of enemies at you, give you some tools and you need to do your best.
Doom combat is better, because your each action have reaction.
you block projectiles. enemies get locked in pain when you hit them.
game is more responsive i would say.
and im not really incline to go back to Graven, even if i have whole sunday free.
Last edited:
The problem is that the jank really prevents this from working reliably.
Sometimes, the zombies for example lounge forward right after you "stun" them with the staff. Sometimes they don't.
Some attacks can be parried, others can't. This is reliable, but random. As in, the same kind of attack can always be parried (or not) - but why that specific attack can be parried while another can't makes no sense.
All in all, why even bother? Ammo for your various "guns" is plenty once you have 3 ranged ones.
If melee kills somehow gave you better rewards, I'd see the point, but as it is? Nah. Pick off some single enemies with melee, otherwise stick to guns.
I don't even use the sword anymore. I have a "rocket launcher" now.
Exactly. It isn't sparse enough that you would care in battle.
But outside of battle it can get annoying especially when jumping or swimming. And then you stand around or walk slowly for 10-20 seconds doing fuck all while your stamina regenerates
It's not terrible, but smells a lot like feature bloat the game would be better off without.
Just another thing punishing melee, as melee costs stamina (sometimes, anyway; I haven't figured out when it does or doesn't consume stamina) but using "guns" doesn't.
I think the kick is for destroying stuff while you are wielding a ranged weapon.
Which is odd, because you cannot unequip your staff anyway and will always be able to switch to it.
Another case of "why even put this in the game if it is nearly useless?"
I don't think that's a very fair comparison.
Graven clearly strives to be a very different kind of first person game, not "just" a retro actionfest.
That's also why it is still recommendable (barely) despite its combat being just "meh".
You are totally right.
I enjoy walking around in Graven and admire the map details. Its more like Half life type of game.
Ivan
Arcane
thanks to all for braving the release version. hopefully it gets patched and improved in time for the summer sale
"kick doesn't push even the starting zombie back" yes it does, and you can kick them into spikes
Just now i was kicking this skeleton on screen below and the starting zombies near pile of corpse, where you put barrel to remove cloggage from corpses.
none of them did not move a bit. I either kick them to death or they kill me.
maybe i need to level up the kick, or it works better with some items (new shoe or smth). But im will not invest my time to find it out.
none of them did not move a bit. I either kick them to death or they kill me.
maybe i need to level up the kick, or it works better with some items (new shoe or smth). But im will not invest my time to find it out.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.