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Good RPG puzzles vs bad ones

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
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8,177
Betrayal of Krondor word puzzles on chests were also cool.

Nice balance between allowing you to guess or just look it up in these internet days.

Thing though was, with the internet they were so easy that it makes you feel like not looking and trying your best to figure them out on your own.
 

Siveon

Bot
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Jul 13, 2013
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Somehow I completely forgot who that character was, but I suppose that was because he came later in the game. I now remember something involving a bullshit puzzle in his portion. I also never used the guy, his skills were kinda lame.

+1 for word puzzles in BaK. Although the treasure was hardly worth all the time I spent trying to figure out another word for 'wheelbarrow'.
 
Joined
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Ultima Underworld 2 had the tedious Q-Bert puzzle that you needed to do many times. Puzzles really suck if they are a no-brainer but take awhile to complete anyway. Block puzzles where you they move extremely slowly come to mind.
 

Snorkack

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Xulima had some few good puzzles, like the hall of heroes, where player can't get through unless he had previously discovered all the right elements to set the right color for each statues.Almost impossible to beat it with luck, as there are so many combinations.I really enjoyed this particular one
I loved LoX, but the riddles were by far the weakest part.
The one you mentioned? Pretty obvious what to do right off the bat. But many statues were so ambiguous, it resulted in guesswork anyways.
The gnome riddles? At first I thought they were cool because you have to pay attention to the lore. But after the second one it was clear that a)the riddles are randomly distributed among the gnomes and b) the answer is always one of 8 possible answers.
Then the pixel hunting for hidden switches. Apparently people liked it. But it annoyed the crap out of me.
And of course as I mentioned in my earlier post: You can't find the hidden islands with your ship unless you have found the hint with the right cardinal direction sequence, even if you tried the very same sequence before.
 

deuxhero

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Flowery Land
Puzzles that are only required because the game doesn't let you short circuit them with logical actions (A group of men consisting of a warrior capable of cleaving monsters with hides thicker than stone in two, a master lockpicker, and a master of flames has to find a key to a wooden door in the middle of nowhere because you can't attack objects and the lock can't be picked) are instantly horrible.

Minigame puzzles in their own little space (examine something and you have a puzzle. The door has a sliding block puzzle on it) are terrible outside of dialog based puzzles, though classic puzzles (blocks, light) done in the normal world can be fine (though are generally pretty unoriginal).

Speed/timing based puzzles in games that don't otherwise require it are likewise shit.

One cool thing about Golden Sun was, for all its flaws, it made all puzzles dependent upon abilities few people beyond the party had. This meant it made sense why nobody had opened these ruins in the many years they've been standing there.

Being able to OPTIONALLY consult people in-game about puzzles.

Oh, I recall Mask of the Betrayer had a neat little dialog puzzle about a devil's contract. Not sure if it was that neat though or I'm misremembering.

Dr. McNinja, while not a video game, had an interesting subversion to the tomb puzzle thing where TRYING to solve the puzzle was fatal and there was no right anwser, the real solution was just walking past it instead of triggering the trap.
 
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V_K

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I'd say that MW has a few very interesting "hidden" quests (twin lamps, disappearance of the dwarves etc), but they are drowned in tons of fedex.
 

Cadmus

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Dec 28, 2013
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I like the generic puzzles of genericness "What is wet and goes down but not up? WATER" They're funny. I like it if they're mixed in with some real puzzles where you can find the answer in the gameworld.

I fucking hate retarded shit like this:
Puzzles that are only required because the game doesn't let you short circuit them with logical actions (A group of men consisting of a warrior capable of cleaving monsters with hides thicker than stone in two, a master lockpicker, and a master of flames has to find a key to a wooden door in the middle of nowhere because you can't attack objects and the lock can't be picked) are instantly horrible.

I hate having to figure out some retarded sequence of insane bullshit teleporters. Basically, I hate 95% of all the standard puzzles. I don't even remember solving anything resembling a puzzle in Morrowind so I guess I either missed them or they well built in the context of the world.
 

Cadmus

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Bad puzzles are the ones that require the player to check the internet for sollutions.
Just a few weeks ago I tried playing Silent Hill 3 with my friends on the hardest difficulty. We thought "Huh we're all grownups we can do the puzzles on our own."
HAHA tough shit. We spent an hour trying to figure out the Shakespeare puzzle and then we gave up, checked the solution and it was the most insanely retarded thing we've ever seen.
 

Cadmus

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Ah, just remembered one more kind of bad puzzles: those that are so easy they might as well be left out.
Surely you are not talking about the sophisticated puzzles in Skyrim? Imagine a person who can't see very well so he can't recognize the symbols on the walls, it might be really difficult for them.
 

DraQ

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Bad puzzles are the ones that require the player to check the internet for sollutions.
Sometimes it's bad player instead.

Ah, just remembered one more kind of bad puzzles: those that are so easy they might as well be left out.
Surely you are not talking about the sophisticated puzzles in Skyrim? Imagine a person who can't see very well so he can't recognize the symbols on the walls, it might be really difficult for them.
Easy would be forgivable, but repeating the same puzzle over and over after the solution has been figured out?
:prosper:
It's like someone didn't even grasp the concept of puzzhopw roewur ne.
 

Hobo Elf

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Platypus Planet
Bad puzzles are the ones that require the player to check the internet for sollutions.
Just a few weeks ago I tried playing Silent Hill 3 with my friends on the hardest difficulty. We thought "Huh we're all grownups we can do the puzzles on our own."
HAHA tough shit. We spent an hour trying to figure out the Shakespeare puzzle and then we gave up, checked the solution and it was the most insanely retarded thing we've ever seen.

Japanese games have bullshit obscure design for a reason, and that reason is to sell strategy guides, which are quite popular in Japan. And now you know why jRPGs tend to have inane and obscure ways to get the best equipment or why the optional boss fights are otherwise unbeatable unless you figure out their one achilles heel.
 

himmy

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Oct 13, 2012
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Bad examples:

- Hints that you get excited about and get ready to work through, only for the answer to be given to you either via journal entry or obligatory item/character finding.
- If I have to rotate a single god damned ancient statue to point at some bullshit I will most likely find the nearest RPG dev and bite him.
- A riddle, you say? Let's have it! Oh, it's just that one "four legs in the morning" riddle from Oedipus Rex, couldn't even Google like the second most famous riddle of all time and you went with a 2400 years old one, huh? And you get paid for this shit? Sophocles better have a writing credit for this game.
- Having to carefully time my running/staying put routine to escape the arrows/fire being thrown at me in a corridor is a QTE in anything but name and it gets boring really fast. If I want to play a game where my progress depends on how well I am able to coordinate my character's feet I'll go play Prince of Persia or something.


Good examples:

- Quests that are started by non-traditional means. Getting a quest from a dialogue or by entering a new area is fine, but sending me on a cool quest just cause I fucked around with some shit is better. Best example I can think of is the Twin Lamps quests in Morrowind. Randomly freeing the slaves you find in dungeons will give you the dialogue option "twin lamps", with the answer being just a cryptic one. But free even more slaves and they will eventually give you a straight answer, telling you where to go and who to speak to in order to start the Twin Lamps quest lines. The best thing about this is that at no point are you given the idea that freeing more slaves will change the answer to that conversation. You are only given access to the slave-freeing questline if you genuinely go around freeing slaves.
- While I understand this doesn't work with every game, I really like the "solve-in-real-life" quest category in The Secret World. Having to read passages from the King James' Bible on Google to find the password for some Knights Templar hideout just makes sense. Additionally, all those real websites they set up for fictional organisation tie-up pretty cool with the setting. In one small example that I can remember, you are told that the password for some agent's PDA is his wife's name. Finding and searching his body will get you his ID, which contains his name and work place. Googling that shit will send you to the website of his employer, where a short article about the company Christmas party reveals that he "and his beautiful wife, Helen" have attended...giving you the answer to the puzzle.
 

made

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Dec 18, 2006
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5,130
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Germany
Ideally, a good puzzle would make you think but also involve character skills to discover clues in the first place (say reading ancient languages or spotting hidden objects).
 
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RE: Arx Fatalis's puzzle done "wrong": The key is under the pillow of the goblin (Atok the quartermaster iirc) assigned to guard the door. This goblin has a basic schedule of door guarding and going to his room. Since you know that it is this particular Goblin who has the key, it is not difficult to figure out a ransacking of his room may be a good idea, thus this puzzle is another good example of rightness. Arx Fatalis' puzzles are all examples of rightness, even the fucking hardcore ones late in the game. Arx Fatalis is for gentlemen whom wear monocles.

Atok wasn't assigned to guard the door, he was located in a room on the other side of Goblin Kingdom, where he basically paced back and forth between that room and the outisde sleeping quarters, never coming close to the other room with the chest. The goblin who did guard that door mentions to the player that only Atok and the King can open it, and that's the only time he is mentioned in relation to the room with the chest.

There are a lot of hints being dropped about Atok thinking he should've been the King and that the King cheated him in the election. From that, I sorta deduced that Atok was probably the one who stole the troll idol in order to incite trouble, so I did have a look around his room and even killed him (on a test run) to try the key he had on him on th chest (didn't work), but moving every little thing in the room didn't occur to me.

I just think puzzles like that, that depend on this kind of tedious mundane actions are really bad.
 

Roid King

Educated
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
52
A good puzzle should fuse with the game world, and not stick out like something that has no logical reason to exist. Legend of Grimrock is a good example of this. Love the games, and the puzzles themselves are very good from a grey cell standpoint, but teleporters in the middle of the forest, and various gate, trapdoor and pressure plate contraptions needed just to open a god damn door, just don't make any sense. The whole "evil wizard set it up this way" doesn't cut it as an excuse.

I also think puzzles generally should be larger than their immediate locate, and contain hints and clues elsewhere in the game world in a logical manner. I recall a Skyrim puzzle with some pillars that had to be turned a certain way, which actually had the book with the solution lying on a fucking podium in the exact room where the puzzle was performed!

If a puzzle is to be logical, it needs to be considered from the puzzle maker's view as well as the solver's, which in most cases means the maker doesn't actually want the puzzle to be solved (his secret lair being discovered, or whatever). In other words, it can't be too obvious a puzzle at all. No big pressure plate room that screams "solve me!", but small details that you need observation and thought to catch the very existence of, with subtle hints to their existence elsewhere in the game world. Preferably this is done with more than just loose journal pages, which is the usual lazy method (again, a logical reason must be provided for why someone would actually write clues in a journal and then rip the pages one by one, and place them in certain locations). Grimrock 2 does this pretty interestingly with the talking heads, though it's still just a variation of the journal page method.
 
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Trojan_generic

Magister
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Jul 21, 2007
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1,565
Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Betrayal of Krondor word puzzles on chests were also cool.

Nice balance between allowing you to guess or just look it up in these internet days.

Thing though was, with the internet they were so easy that it makes you feel like not looking and trying your best to figure them out on your own.

This applies to all the puzzles except randomly generated ones - you can look them up on the internet. Problem with word puzzles is that you have to know the language really well if the game is not in your first language.
 

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