Getting abilities in "menus" instead of interacting with the world is just boring.

[Cryomancer]

I saw some people complaining that in 2E games, notabely BG1/2 most of the level up screens are just "confirm". Only because players can't assign point every single level in every single class, don't means that there are no character development interacting with the world. For example, the final act of BG2:SoA allows you to do lots of choices before fighting your nemessis which impact your attributes, resistances and so on. A magical tome, attribute sacrifice a bit before you get the slayer form and so on allow the PC to "customize" its attributes in a much more meaningful and interesting way than just after few levels, picking the most valuable attribute and adding one.

Same with abilities. What seems more interesting?

• A ) In the level up screen, you spend a talent point to learn the spell to summon an ice golem
• B ) You talk to a mage who can teach the spell, read some books, find reagents, research spells with in game days passing, construct your golem and now can summon an ice golem

Piranha Bytes in particular has every single ability learned by interacting with the world. Some people even mock that you need to pay a guy to teach you how to kick in Risen 1

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

BG:2 Hell Trials are an example of C&C, not character customization. That only comes later with metagaming. Criticisms of AD&D character advancement are valid. That's not to say it was a bad system, but it was in a transition phase between wargame and what we today regard as desirable character customization.

Questing for class development is almost always more interesting than otherwise, to the point where to ask the question is to answer it. It's why becoming a Mage or Thief in PS:T is so engaging, because the player becomes steeped in their class by doing, rather than merely selecting.

 

[Covenant]

This kind of anti-menu activism is the reason why I have to wait through loading screens and filler dialogue about the town just to buy some fucking crossbow bolts, instead of rapidly hitting a few keys and getting it all done in under five seconds.

 

[NecroLord]

Elder Scrolls used to have a pretty robust character creation system,especially Daggerfall,where you could even select special advantages(like immunity to paralysis or fast healing) and special disadvantages(weakness to disease and poison or inability to use certain weapons).
Morrowind removed the special advantages and disadvantages,but it has racial strengths and weaknesses(like a Nord's immunity to magic Frost damage,or an Altmer's increased magicka pool but weakness to magicka and elemental damage).
It even has Birth Signs.
I really like this system.

 

[mondblut]

Same with abilities. What seems more interesting?

• A ) In the level up screen, you spend a talent point to learn the spell to summon an ice golem
• B ) You talk to a mage who can teach the spell, read some books, find reagents, research spells with in game days passing, construct your golem and now can summon an ice golem

I don't know which seems more interesting, but I do know which seems like inconvenient chore the moment you have to jump through the hoops the second time.

 

[wishbonetail]

Same with abilities. What seems more interesting?

• A ) In the level up screen, you spend a talent point to learn the spell to summon an ice golem
• B ) You talk to a mage who can teach the spell, read some books, find reagents, research spells with in game days passing, construct your golem and now can summon an ice golem

I don't know which seems more interesting, but I do know which seems like inconvenient chore the moment you have to jump through the hoops the second time.

Jumping through the hoops is what keeping the player interested in the gameworld until the end. Take Might and magic for example where every object, building, character, location is served in character develoment. DnD games are boring as hell in that regard.

 

[mondblut]

I don't know which seems more interesting, but I do know which seems like inconvenient chore the moment you have to jump through the hoops the second time.

Jumping through the hoops is what keeping the player interested in the gameworld until the end. Take Might and magic for example where every object, building, character, location is served in character develoment. DnD games are boring as hell in that regard.

Might and Magic after 5 is hardly an example of good RPG. Regardless, you only get to jump through the hoops for grandmaster skills, which is like, 2-3 quests per character, and most of them different? Imagine doing that crap for each and every upgrade. Nah, I'd rather click the "+" icon, thank you very much.

 

[Dadd]

Spellbooks are just menus with extra steps

 

[notpl]

I agree to an extent, but a good RPG should have so many abilities that finding them all in the world would be ridiculously tedious. As in so many things, Underrail does it best by having plenty of both.

Also, you're hugely overselling BG in this respect. One or two opportunities to get +1 attribute point in a game where your attributes do almost nothing is not exactly a replacement for a full tactical ability suite.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Why not both?

 

[Cryomancer]

Same with abilities. What seems more interesting?

• A ) In the level up screen, you spend a talent point to learn the spell to summon an ice golem
• B ) You talk to a mage who can teach the spell, read some books, find reagents, research spells with in game days passing, construct your golem and now can summon an ice golem

I don't know which seems more interesting, but I do know which seems like inconvenient chore the moment you have to jump through the hoops the second time.

Disagreed. I did the warlock quests, succubus, voidlwalker and so on 3 times in classic wow.

Also played Gothic 2 - Returning twice as an water mage and getting ice golem spell, you first learn the 4th circle of water magic, them talk to Myxir to learn the spell recipe, make an greater runestone, then buy an spell scroll, gather the ingredients(described in a book sold by water mages_ like aquamarine and the heart of an ice golem slain and only after it, you can make the spell in a rune and summon at will.

Spellbooks are just menus with extra steps

Way better disguised and more immersive.

Imagine doing that crap for each and every upgrade. Nah, I'd rather click the "+" icon, thank you very much.

Obviously for a party of 6/8+, this system would be a chore.

 

[Butter]

The way Might & Magic handled it was fine. You go back to town periodically and train. It helps to pace the adventure and it isn't obnoxiously involved. It can also help drive you forward if the each town's trainer has a different level limit. Don't do it the way UUW2 did it, where the trainers move around and you have to scour the entire castle every time.

 

[mondblut]

Obviously for a party of 6/8+, this system would be a chore.

For anything with more than 3 classes and 4 stats, too. Conclusion: totally incompatible with proper RPGs.

 

[Cryomancer]

For anything with more than 3 classes and 4 stats, too. Conclusion: totally incompatible with proper RPGs.

I would say that is incompatible with games where you play a party but not in games where you play a character. And even in games where you play a party, as longs the quests for abilities are rare, aren't a problem. Eg - promotion quests in M&M VI/VII/VIII

 

[mondblut]

For anything with more than 3 classes and 4 stats, too. Conclusion: totally incompatible with proper RPGs.

I would say that is incompatible with games where you play a party but not in games where you play a character.

That's what I said

And even in games where you play a party, as longs the quests for abilities are rare, aren't a problem.

Yeah, but that contradicts your original point, no?

 

[V_K]

Yeah, it was super fun in MM6 trying to remember which of indistinguishable houses in which of indistinguishable towns holds the skill trainer you need. Hard pass.

The best of both worlds, IMO, is something like Wizards&Warriors: Skills you already have increase with use and can be trained additionally on level-up. New skills (as well as feats and advanced classes) have to be acquired in guilds and often require some questing to do.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yeah, it was super fun in MM6 trying to remember which of indistinguishable houses in which of indistinguishable towns holds the skill trainer you need. Hard pass.

The problem is not that. The problem is that the trainers are placed ramdomly and an master water mage can't teach expert water magic by no reason. If instead of a random house in mid of nowhere, you had to go into a "firing range" to get expert/master marksmanship/archery, that would have ben much better.

In the example of Gothic 2 - Returning, you can learn all 6 circles of magic from your master(Xardas, Pyrokar, Saturas) and the guy who teaches runes is pretty close. No need to enter in random stacks to find the correct trainer. All water mages are in the ruins investigating, all fire mages are in the Innos monastery. And as a necromancer, Xardas teaches everything that you need. Including, demonology, new spells, new magical circles, sells reagents and so on.

 

[wishbonetail]

Obviously for a party of 6/8+, this system would be a chore.

For anything with more than 3 classes and 4 stats, too. Conclusion: totally incompatible with proper RPGs.

"Proper RPGs"? And here i thought that only the games where you control a single character are proper RPGs.