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Games where you can be the bad guy

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Can you shoot Samara? I'd love to try that! I do recall you can shoot another of her daughters in ME3.
Mistyped - meant to say let her kill herself*

As far as I know, you cannot shoot her, just ignore the attempt to save her life. Only her only remaining surviving daughter can be shot by you if Samara isn't present or you let her kill herself.
 
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Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
True. Yet you must stick with one of their two designated moral paths no matter what, or you won't get enough moral skill points.
The way around that is to max out paragon/renegade on Noveria in ME1 with the glitch. I went through the entire trilogy choosing whatever I wanted without sticking to a path and the only check I didn't meet was on Feros with Ethan Jeong.
 

Groover

Literate
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
45
Mass Effect, for all of that series' foibles, offered the most nuanced moral dichotomy system in the paragon/renegade branches. It's a shame that it's mostly dead in the water at this point, and you've got all of these autistic newage CRPG devs harkening back to the good vs. evil choices, as if that was ever remotely meaningful. A sign of the current crisis of faith, I suppose..
Mass Effect did not do it well because it was extremely inconsistent. ME1 did it best in the trilogy but it still wasn't good.

It flip flops between being pragmatic to retarded evil all the time. Take, for example, some ME2 QTE's that take out an enemy before a fight (Omega) vs. shooting Samara and her daughter. Other times where it would make sense, like shooting Mordin, isn't set up properly. The actions themselves are pragmatic but the set up for why you're doing it fails to deliver. (i.e. instead of stopping genophage for exposed reasons, it's portrayed as stupid evil)
I totally agree, and renegade Shepard would sometimes be so ridiculously mean, like when he decks the reporter girl. It was genuinely laugh out loud funny, but also flagrantly retarded. There were times where it was more nuanced than that and renegade Shepard demonstrated some understanding that the needs of the many sometimes requires the sacrifice of the few, and it ultimately looked like a lead-up to something better than lawful good vs. chaotic evil in their extreme manifestations.. alas, we're still waiting for someone to pick up where they left off. I still don't think any other moral system with a tangible rating was executed better though, flaws and all.
 
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Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
I totally agree, and renegade Shepard would sometimes be so ridiculously mean, like when he decks the reporter girl. It was genuinely laugh out loud funny, but also flagrantly retarded. There were times where it was more nuanced than that and renegade Shepard demonstrated some understanding that the needs of the many sometimes requires the sacrifice of the few, and it ultimately looked like a lead-up to something better than lawful good vs. chaotic evil in their extreme manifestations.. alas, we're still waiting for someone to pick up where they left off. I still don't think any other moral system with a tangible rating was executed better though, flaws and all.
KOTOR 2 did it better.

And yes, there were some really good ones. Zaeed's loyalty mission is one of the best examples: Save innocent people and let the leader of the Blue Suns go who will probably continue causing havoc and be the cause of loss of life, or let the few innocents die to take care of him once and for all. These are the choices that should've counted towards the paragon/renegade counters. Hell, even the council decision at the end of ME1 was good for that, including letting you choose the reasoning for your choice afterwards (just wanting to focus on Sovereign, or did it to get rid of them and take power for humans). The mean or outright evil shit should've either been scrapped, or not counted towards either. Add a separate counter for that, or scrap the morality system all together.
 

Groover

Literate
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
45
That doesn't technically make sense, considering half the population by definition are below average retardation. :)
Most people are midwits, hovering around the 100 iq range, mathematically speaking. We start to classify as mentally disabled at far lower percentiles - I think it's 80 and below. Midwits are more dangerous though, since they're capable of pseudo-intellectual discourse, giving the illusion that they have something of value to say when the reality of the matter is a little... less than that.
But RPGs are both games and alternative lifestyle simulators, so being evil could be just another playing style.
Sure, I get that, but going around on a mass murder spree and making it a competition to see how many people can hate you does not lead one to a long and fruitful existence. People would be out to hunt you down in no time as you represent a threat to the continued propagation of the species. You're a parasite at the point, one that needs to be purged. No game that I know of makes a real attempt to deal with that reality, at least not without making you ridiculously powerful, hence the petulant child's fantasy bit.
Psychologically speaking, narcissists and sociopaths are indeed immature and pathetic; but as such they might as well choose to play a hero character, which should fit their grandiose self-image. Maybe some sociopaths might choose evil to feel rebellious or stubborn though.

I could also imagine some people doing it to feel edgy (compare with satanist attributes in metal music). And completionist gamers, of course (those are the worst).
Speaking strictly of outwardly appearance - at least the hero accomplishes some semblance of good in the community and inspires forward momentum. He might be some counterfeit cheat whose intentions are a little less pure, but if he manages to achieve hero status, the intentions don't quite matter as much since, at that point, he's instilled a sense of goodness in the people.

And striving for 100% achievements in Planescape Torment and being forced to play TNO as a fucking lunatic inspired me to write up these posts. Fuck that noise, I gave up partway through. What a waste of time.
 

Groover

Literate
Joined
Aug 6, 2023
Messages
45
KOTOR 2 did it better.
I suppose.. but there are times where that game becomes a little too preachy and self-aggrandizing. My favourite example is when you first arrive to Nar Shaddaa and are approached by the beggar who asks you for credits. Your only two options are to give him some, or to threaten to kill him. You can't just politely refuse and go on your way, and each instance leads to Kreia berating you - for being a simp on one hand, or a psychotic moron on the other. There are several instances of this in the game and it always manages to sour me on the experience a little bit. It feels too heavy-handed.
 

Iucounu

Educated
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
645
Most people are midwits, hovering around the 100 iq range, mathematically speaking. We start to classify as mentally disabled at far lower percentiles - I think it's 80 and below. Midwits are more dangerous though, since they're capable of pseudo-intellectual discourse, giving the illusion that they have something of value to say when the reality of the matter is a little... less than that.
True, but how will that prevent them from playing a retarded evil character? I suppose a midwit might choose whatever is labelled as Good by the writer (in ME all it takes is blue text color), and if the writer manages to label/excuse truly evil actions as Good the midwit might choose them as well. I must have killed thousands of NPCs over the years with incredibly silly plot excuses. :-p

QUOTE="Iucounu, post: 8606188, member: 32365"]
But RPGs are both games and alternative lifestyle simulators, so being evil could be just another playing style.
Sure, I get that, but going around on a mass murder spree and making it a competition to see how many people can hate you does not lead one to a long and fruitful existence. People would be out to hunt you down in no time as you represent a threat to the continued propagation of the species. You're a parasite at the point, one that needs to be purged.
A cunning person may get away for many years. The trick is to either stay hidden (like a terrorist or serial killer) or have enough followers to protect you (like a genocidal politician).

No game that I know of makes a real attempt to deal with that reality, at least not without making you ridiculously powerful, hence the petulant child's fantasy bit.
Postal 2 comes to mind, where you annoy an increasing number of people up to the chaotic finale. I'd say the protagonist is more victim than evil though.

Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl and Clear Sky both have reputation systems that allow you to make almost every NPC hostile (new and old) towards you (except those prevented by the main plot); but there's no in-game need or reward for doing that, it's more a completionist thing.

Psychologically speaking, narcissists and sociopaths are indeed immature and pathetic; but as such they might as well choose to play a hero character, which should fit their grandiose self-image. Maybe some sociopaths might choose evil to feel rebellious or stubborn though.

I could also imagine some people doing it to feel edgy (compare with satanist attributes in metal music). And completionist gamers, of course (those are the worst).
Speaking strictly of outwardly appearance - at least the hero accomplishes some semblance of good in the community and inspires forward momentum. He might be some counterfeit cheat whose intentions are a little less pure, but if he manages to achieve hero status, the intentions don't quite matter as much since, at that point, he's instilled a sense of goodness in the people.
I meant narcissists (and everybody else, really) would choose playing as a hero character because they tell themselves it's what they resemble the most. I didn't mean they'd choose it to trick other people IRL, though it wouldn't surprise me in some cases.
 

Thorakitai

Learned
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Messages
263
8qPk5Sm.jpg




This obscure SNES JRPG, Dark Half, You play as two characters whose stories are interconnected and switch whenever you finish the other's chapter.

The first protagonist is a silent, heroic warrior named Falco who aims to stop the demon lord. The second protagonist is the demon lord Rukyu, The Fallen One, and is the more interesting character. While Falco's story plays like a typical heroic fantasy, Rukyu aims to destroy all of humanity. It sounds simple, but there are interesting twists as the game goes on.

Anyway, Falco's side plays like a typical fantasy rpg where you have party members who can equip and forge items and cast spells. Rukyu is obviously different. He's a demon lord with high stats but is limited to casting powerful spells and has a party of AI-controlled monsters, whom you can recruit by capturing monsters in battle.

The game has a unique mechanic where you have a mana meter called Soul Power that depletes whenever your character moves on the world map, dungeons, or specific tasks. For Falco, Soul Power is required to forge powerful equipment and spells of magic. For Rukyu, it's required to cast his powerful spells. Falco can recover Soul Power by converting items. For Rukyu...

fF0pM3J.jpg


He gets Soul Power by killing human NPCs. Men, Women, and children, It doesn't matter, as Rukyu devours their souls to fuel his power. and he does in almost every one of his chapters, to the point that, by the endgame, you've depopulated the entire map of all humans living in the villages. It also interesting to see the responses of the NPCs as they face death. Some beg for their lives, some accept their fates and others are quite unique that are also connected to the main plot.

It's a good game.
 
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Aemar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 18, 2018
Messages
6,084
The rogue path from The Guild 2 allows the player to extort businesses, blackmail, rob, pillage, kidnap, pickpocket, plunder ships.
 

Pulse

Educated
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
85
8qPk5Sm.jpg




This obscure NES JRPG, Dark Half, You play as two characters whose stories are interconnected and switch whenever you finish the other's chapter.

The first protagonist is a silent, heroic warrior named Falco who aims to stop the demon lord. The second protagonist is the demon lord Rukyu, The Fallen One, and is the more interesting character. While Falco's story plays like a typical heroic fantasy, Rukyu aims to destroy all of humanity. It sounds simple, but there are interesting twists as the game goes on.

Anyway, Falco's side plays like a typical fantasy rpg where you have party members who can equip and forge items and cast spells. Rukyu is obviously different. He's a demon lord with high stats but is limited to casting powerful spells and has a party of AI-controlled monsters, whom you can recruit by capturing monsters in battle.

The game has a unique mechanic where you have a mana meter called Soul Power that depletes whenever your character moves on the world map, dungeons, or specific tasks. For Falco, Soul Power is required to forge powerful equipment and spells of magic. For Rukyu, it's required to cast his powerful spells. Falco can recover Soul Power by converting items. For Rukyu...

fF0pM3J.jpg


He gets Soul Power by killing human NPCs. Men, Women, and children, It doesn't matter, as Rukyu devours their souls to fuel his power. and he does in almost every one of his chapters, to the point that, by the endgame, you've depopulated the entire map of all humans living in the villages. It also interesting to see the responses of the NPCs as they face death. Some beg for their lives, some accept their fates and others are quite unique that are also connected to the main plot.

It's a good game.


Pretty nice idea
 

Lucumo

Educated
Joined
May 9, 2021
Messages
697
The rogue path from The Guild 2 allows the player to extort businesses, blackmail, rob, pillage, kidnap, pickpocket, plunder ships.
It's annoying that when you accidentally kill someone, people who witnessed the unfortunate incident will report you to the authorities...unless they are quite clumsy and possibly trip and fall onto your sword.

Too bad the game crashes for me at times.
 

Aemar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 18, 2018
Messages
6,084
Can't remember any serious instances of crashes while using Fajeth's 0.7 MegaMod or even the latest vanilla patch for that matter.
 

Lucumo

Educated
Joined
May 9, 2021
Messages
697
The 4.211 patch for Renaissance is what I used and that's, as far as I know, the final patch.
 

Häyhä

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
1,436
Location
Hyperborea
8qPk5Sm.jpg




This obscure NES JRPG, Dark Half, You play as two characters whose stories are interconnected and switch whenever you finish the other's chapter.

The first protagonist is a silent, heroic warrior named Falco who aims to stop the demon lord. The second protagonist is the demon lord Rukyu, The Fallen One, and is the more interesting character. While Falco's story plays like a typical heroic fantasy, Rukyu aims to destroy all of humanity. It sounds simple, but there are interesting twists as the game goes on.

Anyway, Falco's side plays like a typical fantasy rpg where you have party members who can equip and forge items and cast spells. Rukyu is obviously different. He's a demon lord with high stats but is limited to casting powerful spells and has a party of AI-controlled monsters, whom you can recruit by capturing monsters in battle.

The game has a unique mechanic where you have a mana meter called Soul Power that depletes whenever your character moves on the world map, dungeons, or specific tasks. For Falco, Soul Power is required to forge powerful equipment and spells of magic. For Rukyu, it's required to cast his powerful spells. Falco can recover Soul Power by converting items. For Rukyu...

fF0pM3J.jpg


He gets Soul Power by killing human NPCs. Men, Women, and children, It doesn't matter, as Rukyu devours their souls to fuel his power. and he does in almost every one of his chapters, to the point that, by the endgame, you've depopulated the entire map of all humans living in the villages. It also interesting to see the responses of the NPCs as they face death. Some beg for their lives, some accept their fates and others are quite unique that are also connected to the main plot.

It's a good game.

This game probably got some inspiration from Square's Live A Live where you also play a part of the game as the fallen warrior/Dark Lord and where there's even an evil ending for that.

live-a-live-1000x675.jpg
 

Phinx

Augur
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
111
Arcanum. Your first party member has a hidden dark side, even the way he talks and is voice acted completely changes. You can also build a robot army, and there is even an ending as the last survivor on the planet.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
9,201
Location
Southeastern Yurop
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City?
I don't think Tommy is an evil character, but he certainly isn't a good one either.
A self-interested crimelord who is in the business of making money and accumulating power. He is honorable and generous with his friends/allies, but ruthless with his enemies.
 

Beans00

Erudite
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
1,064
In Underrail Tchort genuinely did nothing wrong, so my opinion you need to play as the bad guy to beat the game. Still liked the game but should have been able to side with Tchort.
 

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