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Games where units are groups of simulated models

Glory to Ukraine
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Regiments has a detailed unit management in between campaign missions and very good storyfag elements, you can check the detailed review and discussion here. In short it is both a highly polished take on the clasic Wargame formula and something quite different as well.

Speaking of Knights and Merchants - I played it on release and still have the CD laying around somewhere. The game has plenty of fine concepts but the execution never struck me as being particularly great... the reviews also werent too good back then, which is why it tends to be rather obscure.

One more thing that could be added to the list is Warhammer: Mark of Chaos. It is basicaly a "modern" take on Dark Omen - not as good as the original, but it is certainly quite serviceable.
 

gabel

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Nintendo Wars/Advance Wars has each unit (who occupy a single tile on the battlefield), except for ships and some wunderwaffe introduced in Dual Strike, be a group of units who lose members (and thus deal less damage) as they lose HP (the few units that are single units also lose power, but it comes from batteries knocked out). It first appears in the original Famicom Wars, but the GBA/DS Advance Wars games are the best known (especially in the west where they're the only ones translated)

Oh man, I loved Advance Wars DS! Is Super Famicom/Super NES Wars equally good?
Edit: Wait, they're not even translated? :( There surely is a romhack available somewhere?
 

Nutmeg

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Nintendo Wars/Advance Wars has each unit (who occupy a single tile on the battlefield), except for ships and some wunderwaffe introduced in Dual Strike, be a group of units who lose members (and thus deal less damage) as they lose HP (the few units that are single units also lose power, but it comes from batteries knocked out). It first appears in the original Famicom Wars, but the GBA/DS Advance Wars games are the best known (especially in the west where they're the only ones translated)

Oh man, I loved Advance Wars DS! Is Super Famicom/Super NES Wars equally good?
Edit: Wait, they're not even translated? :( There surely is a romhack available somewhere?
The best, IME, is Days of Ruin with second place going to the GBA duology. The original Famicom one has "aged poorly" so to speak. My experience is limited though, as I haven't put any significant amount of time into Super Famicom Wars, nor the Game Boy titles (which are quite different -- they were made by Hudson, and hex, not square based, IIRC), so I can't speak for them.

As I wrote in a previous post, these games take the very simple approach of using the number of men (or machines) in a unit to tie hit points to damage output. There are more interesting approaches to units as squads, squadrons, or men or machines in formation, even in turn and grid or hex based games e.g. the approach in Fields of Glory, which IME, is the gold standard for a turn based game.

That's not to say the Famicom Wars games are bad. They are actually some of the best TBS games, out there (again IME), despite or due to their simplicity.
 
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Nutmeg

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I am debating whether to disqualify the Famicom Wars formula games (including them would open the doors to many many others, but I've unwittingly done so I believe with some real time games), or move them to a separate list. This would include the Wargame series, if I am remembering it correctly, but not Tiberium Wars, because there there is also the crushing mechanic which interacts with the shape of the squad, so it goes beyond number of men or machines as HP and damage output.

Anyway how does Sword of Aragon work again? That had a more complex take on the matter right.
 

adddeed

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Also
Ground Control
Grand Ages Rome ( and probably its predecessors Imperium Romanum and Glory of the Roman Empire)
Also im pretty sure Caesar 3 uses squads.
 

JarlFrank

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Since you've added Cossacks on that list you might as well add Knights and Merchants too. Each unit is simulated individually but they can and ought to be controlled in groups.
I added the Cossacks games because someone else mentioned them. I myself have never played them.

If unit of control = individual that would disqualify these games (I mean, if it's so for the majority of units, it's ok if e.g. a handful of large units are individuals but infantry and smaller vehicles are groups). Should I remove Cossacks?

EDIT: After watching some gameplay, Cossacks has been removed.
Cossacks and American Conquest are Age of Empires style RTS games where soldiers are recruited individually but can optionally be combined into formations, which give stat bonuses.
In American Conquest and Cossacks 2, a formation's soldiers can lose morale and break off, running away in panic individually.
In Cossacks 1, 3, and American conquest, it is not necessary to form formations, you can win games while keeping your soldiers individual (and honestly I always found the formations handle weirdly so I rarely use them).

In Cossacks 2, you also recruit soldiers individually, but they are pretty useless outside of a formation. You cannot win a game without them.
Cossacks 2 also has a world conquest game mode where units are recruited as formations, and if they fully break in a battle you lose them.

Cossacks 2, therefore, fully qualifies for this list.

Two more for the list, Total War style games:




Also, the King Arthur: The Role-Playing Wargame series. There's two games in it and a standalone expansion:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/24400/King_Arthur__The_Roleplaying_Wargame/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/24480/King_Arthur_II_The_RolePlaying_Wargame/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/24460/King_Arthur_Fallen_Champions/

The same company also made two battles-only Total War clones before King Arthur:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/24410/Crusaders_Thy_Kingdom_Come/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/42920/The_Kings_Crusade/

EDIT:
Some clarification on the Cossacks games (which includes American conquest) because they're a special case, and might warrant inclusion into the list in their entirety (rather than just Cossacks 2 which absolutely should be included), with screenshots.
Here's a screenshot from Cossacks 1 showing a group of musketeers in hollow square formation fighting off cavalry which are not in formation:
academy_frmanal3.jpg


Formations in Cossacks 1 (and 3, which are functionally the same game: Cossacks 3 is basically a remake of the first game in a newer engine, the game mechanics are largely identical, including how formations work) require an officer, a drummer, and a certain number of regular soldiers to be formed. Once formed, the formation remains static until it breaks apart from having too few men, or is dissolved by the player. You can also reinforce a formation with nearby individual soldiers until it's back at full strength. Being in formation gives units combat bonuses, making them more resilient towards attacks.

Here's a screenshot from Cossacks 3 showing the three different formation types: line, block, and square.
370543434.jpg


Soldiers in a formation are no longer commanded as individuals, but move as a rigid block. They will always retain their shape, until the formation dissolves. Any infantry unit can be formed into a formation, whether melee or ranged, as long as you have an officer and a drummer.

In Cossacks 2, formations become a much more integral part of the gameplay and are no longer optional.

This is what armies look like in Cossacks 2:
8-1024_42.jpg


While in Cossacks 1 and 3, soldiers are reasonably effective individually, in Cossacks 2 soldiers outside of a formation have such low morale that they are practically useless. They will run at the first sight of the enemy and stand no chance in melee combat.
Cossacks 2 is also the only game in the series where formations gain experience through combat, which raises their morale and combat effectiveness. A formation can also reinforce by standing near a conquered village. New recruits will pour out of the buildings and join the formation until it it back at full strength (only works for infantry, not cavalry).

American Conquest works like Cossacks 1 and 3, with a few differences.
Some units cannot form formations, mostly those from native factions who have a less civilized way of fighting. All European factions can form formations with their core infantry and cavalry units. And some native units can form formations too! It really depends on the unit in this game.
Being in formation increases a unit's morale alongside its attack and defense, as American Conquest introduced morale to the series.

ss_71f6877229a0d32d64a96d5ea445784c60aa6c6d.1920x1080.jpg


Here you can see native spearmen in formation, with some native swordsmen who are not in formation, facing off against European pike and shot, all in formation.

And in the following (low res, sorry, best I could find online) screenshot you can see a mass of pikemen not in formation pour into lines of pikemen in formation:

american_conquest_image22.jpg


Here, the units in formation are selected by the player. As you can see, in the unit selection interface there only appear 4 units, each with a number next to it. The number tells you how many soldiers are in each formation. You command formations as singular entities, the individual soldiers will follow the commands given to the formation as a whole.

I think this qualifies all of the Cossacks and American Conquest games as games where units are groups of soldiers at least some of the time.
 
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JarlFrank

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Also im pretty sure Caesar 3 uses squads.
I don't know about earlier Caesar titles, but Caesar 3 and Pharaoh both have squads. You only use them for defense in scenarios that have enemy incursions.
I haven't played Zeus and the China game so I don't know if they have combat, someone else please confirm.

Lords of the Realm 1 has Total War style formations in the battles.
Lords of the Realm 2 does NOT, it has individual soldiers.
I don't know about Lord of the Realm 3 as I haven't played it.

Knights of Honor is like a mix between Paradox games and Total War. Units are troop formations who can assume different formation shapes (wedge, line, square).
It received a sequel recently, Knights of Honor 2, which also has multiple soldiers in formations as its units.

Warrior Kings and Warrior Kings: Battles have small formations of soldiers as their units:
warrior-kings-ts-warriorkings-01-g05jpg_1028187.jpg


Note: all of the games in this post, and my post above, are real time.
 

Axioms

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0AD did a lot of work on unit formations. I don't keep up with it these days, though.
 
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Panzer Command: Ostfront

Panzer Command : Operation Winter Storm

Game where you give your units orders and they carry them out a couple minutes at a time then game pauses...the units are gathered into squads of about 8-12, and vehicles are in platoons or sections of 3 with a leader unit. I liked this game a lot more than the more popular Combat Mission Games, the Ostfront game has endless replayability and will recreate huge campaigns of linked battles from early war to late war I think (also the games come with designed campaigns, the Winterstorm game, which is the earlier edition of the game is a great campaign, but does not offer as much replayability as Ostfront, however Ostfront also comes with some campaigns and then also the random campaign designer which is pretty great).... your units gain experience, need to be replaced (its a points thing if I recall, which is done between battles) get various awards for performance and being injured etc..I played the hell out of the games back when they came out.

Video of a guy playing the game below. Maybe I should try playing the game again, its been awhile... back i the day my computer struggled to apply the high quality decals etc, to the vehicles but obviously that would be no problem now. It is not like the game looks all that great, but I think there are mods to make it look decent.

edit: Oh, the games are sold on Matrix/Slitherine..not sure why they don't sell them on steam, maybe because they don't really support them anymore...but I think people still play them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXiIf-Iyiv0
 
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JarlFrank

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Here's another I just thought of, Bad North. Pretty simple but fun game about defending islands from viking invaders. Your units are commanded as squads/formations.


The Graviteam Tactics games also qualify, I think. Infantry, tanks, etc are all commanded in small groups of several men or vehicles.
There are several games in the series:
- Operation Star: https://store.steampowered.com/app/275290/Graviteam_Tactics_Operation_Star
- Mius Front: https://store.steampowered.com/app/312980/Graviteam_Tactics_MiusFront/
- Tunisia 1943: https://store.steampowered.com/app/549080/Tank_Warfare_Tunisia_1943/

The same dev made Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943 before these, but I haven't played it so I don't know how it handles units (as invidivual vehicles or squads).
 

catfood

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Also im pretty sure Caesar 3 uses squads.
I don't know about earlier Caesar titles, but Caesar 3 and Pharaoh both have squads. You only use them for defense in scenarios that have enemy incursions.
I haven't played Zeus and the China game so I don't know if they have combat, someone else please confirm.
Caesar 2 uses squads and has a separate combat screen.

80397.jpg


In Caesar 2 you can attack cities too, it's not just defensive battles like in latter titles.

Zeus and Emperor has combat as well.
 

Nutmeg

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I've updated the OP again to include everyone's mentions the last dozen or so posts.

Based on JarlFrank's excellent and informative explanation and appeal, I've re-added Cossacks. But are we sure about Lords of the Realm? It looks more like the usual RTS selection box controls but with some smart pathing like in AoE2 i.e units move roughly in formation when you issue a move order to multiple units.

catfood, does KaM work in a similar way to Cossacks where you form units from multiple men that are thereafter their own thing with their own rules and controlled as a whole?
 
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catfood

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catfood, does KaM work in a similar way to Cossacks where you form units from multiple men that are thereafter their own thing with their own rules and controlled as a whole?
Yeah, it's kinda similar. You recruit units from a barracks. You can recruit units one by one and then select each and every one of them individually but since there is no box select this is dumb and nobody does this. What you usually do is recruit multiple units of the same type at the same time which will automatically create them in a group which you can control more efficiently. You can later add more units to a group if you want, you can merge groups, split them, etc. So in practice players will always control squads, although unlike Cossacks, squads don't receive bonuses that single units wouldn't normally have. Grouping them in squads is done for ease of control. Each unit in a squad is simulated separately though, which is a good thing too imo.
 

JarlFrank

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But are we sure about Lords of the Realm? It looks more like the usual RTS selection box controls but with some smart pathing like in AoE2 i.e units move roughly in formation when you issue a move order to multiple units.
That's Lords of the Realm 2. It does absolutely not qualify for this list.

But Lords of the Realm 1 does.
Here's a timestamped link to a Let's Play video where you can see a battle in action:


The same applies to Lords of the Realm 3:


Only Lords of the Realm 2 is the exception, with a more Age of Empires style of warfare:


So:
LotR1 - YES
LotR2 - NO
LotR3 - YES
 

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Dune 2 features 3-man infantry squads (including Sardaukars) that get reduced to a single soldier as they take damage.
 

Nutmeg

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Dune 2 features 3-man infantry squads (including Sardaukars) that get reduced to a single soldier as they take damage.
I think with Dune 2 it was purely cosmetic, kind of like in Famicom Wars (already discussed). But this reminds me that Z (and its sequel too?) had pretty interesting squads.
 
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If you wanna go really old school, then there is Sid Meier´s Sword of Samurai. It had tactical basttles with units in formations.

1695058087575.png
 
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gabel

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North & South.
I recommend the Amiga version over the recent remake.


and Cannon Fodder of course:


Not sure whether either of them counts though.
 

JarlFrank

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Never played it so maybe someone could give more details on it but don't forget Magitech's Takeda serie. For a time it was reputed to be more accurate thant Shogun : TW among Jap history buffs.


Magitech made several Total War like games in the 00s, but later switched to making cheap mobile games instead (massive decline).

I added a bunch of their stuff to the Mobygames database a while ago, because some of their games were missing.

https://www.mobygames.com/game/5435/takeda/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/43658/strength-honour/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/43502/takeda-2/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/184966/sango/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/43593/sango-2/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/45537/takeda-iii/
https://www.mobygames.com/game/167351/strength-honour-2/

Of these, I played Sango 2, Takeda 3, and Strength & Honour 2. They play like slightly clunkier versions of the old TW games (Shogun 1, Medieval 2). Pretty decent stuff, sad that the company gave up on PC games. They could sell pretty well if they re-released on Steam.

Strength & Honour 2 is particularly interesting for its globetrotting setting, it's set in classical antiquity and you can play any faction between Carthage, Rome, Germans, Macedonians, Persians, Indians, Chinese... going all the way from western Europe to East Asia. Very cool.
 

JarlFrank

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What makes them clunkier? Which ones are available in English?

It's mostly the interface that feels clunkier to use. The actual battle gameplay is fine.

The ones I played (Sango 2, Takeda 3, S&H2) are all available in English. I played those so I know for sure.

I haven't played the earlier games, but I did find an English version of Takeda, their very first game, on an abandonware site, which leads to the reasonable assumption that all their games were translated to English.
 

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