Games that reward pickpocketing

[Parabalus]

Gothic 2

 

[abnaxus]

Drakensangs

 

[GuiltyofBeingTrite]

I think we savescum because most games suck at having a spectrum of NPC aggression. If I pick up an item that isn't for sale or bump into someone's rear pocket while fishing around for a wallet they shouldn't realistically try to kill me. It would simply be a case of assigning a value to every stealable item, a corresponding level of aggression based on that value, and the perceived intent of the character that is stealing (the last part is likely difficult). If my character is caught picking up a lamp in a shop that isn't for sale the NPC can warn me that it isn't for sale, then my decision determines the next stage of aggression. Likewise, if I'm at gun shop and caught stealing a firearm the NPCs, likely being armed and knowing I attempted to steal something valuable [100 gold] and threatening [weapon], would immediately perceive a more sinister motive on my part.

 

[Lhynn]

I think we savescum because most games suck at having a spectrum of NPC aggression.

Then youd be wrong, if its anything resembling failure and the answer is reloading, then people will reload. Who cares, it doesnt ruin games anyway.

 

[DraQ]

TES games because they let you meaningfully recover from theft failure and often allow to use pickpocket mechanics as alternate entry points or paths (stealing keys, documents and quest items) as well as useful mechanics in its own right (for example by stealing someone's weapon prior to fight) rather than some hybrid of Russian roulette and an ordinary one.

Skyrim, even though it does two things about it monumentally wrong (not being punished for merely accessing someone inventory and zaniness of being able to steal pants off people's asses if you're master - the latter removed by Requiem, BTW), does interesting things with its crime system - abusing your station, return of Daggerfall's partitioning of legal system (sadly no trials), delayed consequences for stealing (thugs) making gaming the system harder and ability to poison people.

If being caught results in the whole town becoming irreversibly homicidally insane then the problem isn't that you can just reload, the problem is that it's the only sane option you have left, at which point the game would be better served by pickpocketing attempts succeeding automatically.

 

[sullynathan]

If we discredit games because of save scumming, then we must discredit the stealth genre.

 

[HansDampf]

Or get gud? In stealth games you are in control, and if you get caught it's usually your own fault. Pickpocketing in RPGs is just a diceroll. And if failure means permanent loss of a shop/town/quest-kiosk, you will reload until you succeed, or just don't bother.

 

[DraQ]

Fallouts were rewarding pickpocketing very nice since you could even kill enemies by planting bombs in their pockets. Fallout 3 did it even funnier; you could drop grenades or mines in NPC's pockets then watch them going BOOM!

Planting items in Fallout was great part of pickpocketing mechanics, too bad that it's main application (taking items *out* of people's pockets) wasn't so stellar.

How would you improve pickpocketing so that we wouldn't need to reload after failure?

Just like every other - by not letting single failed non-interactive random roll lead to irrecoverable results.

If you fuck the player over totally and irrecoverably, you have to ensure that:

• It's their fault - it's possible to point out what they did wrong (as opposed to doing it right) and they had a way of getting all the necessary information to make an informed decision
• You tell them immediately (unless they have done something so humongously moronic that it calls for some suffering - under the pretext of it being impossible to handle all corner cases, obviously) or at least before they can overwrite their saves (unless explicitly ironman)

If you fuck the player over sneakily, underhandedly or randomly, you must ensure that:

• They can recover from whatever you have inflicted upon them if they play their cards right.

No exceptions.

 

[Bohrain]

Pickpocketing in RPGs is just a diceroll.

The true crime is that developers haven't bothered to develop pickpocketing mechanics further from the tabletop abstraction that works in that medium because you don't have savestates.

 

[nomask7]

Then youd be wrong, if its anything resembling failure and the answer is reloading, then people will reload. Who cares, it doesnt ruin games anyway.

Games should go to their roots and start counting points (and have online ladders). E.g. the more you reload a save game, the less points you'll have upon completion.

 

[Lhynn]

Then youd be wrong, if its anything resembling failure and the answer is reloading, then people will reload. Who cares, it doesnt ruin games anyway.

Games should go to their roots and start counting points (and have online ladders). E.g. the more you reload a save game, the less points you'll have upon completion.

No, fuck you. What are you going to ask for next? achievements?

 

[nomask7]

No, fuck you. What are you going to ask for next? achievements?

I don't mind achievements if they also tell you the percentage of how many people who purchased the game have acquired the same achievement. You have to admit it's at least educational to take a look at how many people got past a certain boss fight in Bloodborne, etc. etc. I mean, yes, I get it, achievements sound like some newfangled shit to you that distract from gameplay, but you can't say the same about points, because the whole idea of getting a score upon completion is to show you HOW WELL YOU PLAYED and to ENCOURAGE YOU TO AVOID BULLSHIT LIKE SAVE SCUMMING AND RESTING ALL THE TIME TO REPLENISH HEALTH. If it's tied to gameplay, it can't be pointless the same way that achievements kind of are.

 

[Lhynn]

No, fuck you. What are you going to ask for next? achievements?

I don't mind achievements if they also tell you the percentage of how many people who purchased the game have acquired the same achievement. You have to admit it's at least educational to take a look at how many people got past a certain boss fight in Bloodborne, etc. etc. I mean, yes, I get it, achievements sound like some newfangled shit to you that distract from gameplay, but you can't say the same about points, because the whole idea of getting a score upon completion is to show you HOW WELL YOU PLAYED and to ENCOURAGE YOU TO AVOID BULLSHIT LIKE SAVE SCUMMING AND RESTING ALL THE TIME TO REPLENISH HEALTH. If it's tied to gameplay, it can't be pointless the same way that achievements kind of are.

I fucking hate systems that artifically force you to play a game a certain way. Especially if it is because "the dev thinks this practice is not healthy". Design your game better and stop using clutches you fucking assholes.

 

[nomask7]

I fucking hate systems that artifically force you to play a game a certain way. Especially if it is because "the dev thinks this practice is not healthy". Design your game better and stop using clutches you fucking assholes.

You're just trolling at this point, aren't you? Meta-gaming (e.g. save scumming) isn't gaming. They aren't forcing you to do anything, they are punishing meta-gaming, as every decent game should.

 

[Lhynn]

You're just trolling at this point, aren't you?

A bit

Meta-gaming (e.g. save scumming) isn't gaming.

Its just another system. One makes the player avoid redoing a lot of content, but has the drawback of allowing the player to get every piece of it perfectly.

They aren't forcing you to do anything, they are punishing meta-gaming, as every decent game should.

Any decent game should be fun, that is all it should be.
Im a fan of fixed difficulties, force the players to invest all their earned points as soon as they get them, or even before they get them, etc.

 

[Modron]

Any pickpocketing mechanic that encourages savescumming is shit.

You must have really enjoyed Arcanum then, using fate points to grant automatic success with zero skill was cool but completely casual.

 

[Mustawd]

Avernum. It even has C&C in quests where you have the option to steal a town's precious resources to fulfill a quest or not. But basically you can steal anything that's not nailed down as long as someone doesn't see you or you don't get killed by a trap.

 

[Jazz_]

Pickpocketing is the scummiest thing you can do in a rpg, stay away from it kids.

 

[Beastro]

Other games that did it (at least partly) right:

BG 1 & BG 2
Underrail
Morrowind
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy games

Does "did it right" mean that you could just reload after failing? Not sure how Final Fantasy handles this, but I don't think Pickpocket is a good mechanic anymore, unless you are playing a Thief game where pocket picking is required to proceed. Stealing in games (I guess) is an part of the RPG experience, but the whole reload until you succeed part just irks me. I rarely take "stealing" type skills, as I know where it will take me: oh, I failed, the guards are mad. Reload.

Also, it's the same as the NPC that cannot be killed. The games invariably have a person that cannot be pickpocketed because they are a special NPC - and their pockets are special as well.

IN FF games you spend a turn trying to steal with a chance, if you fail you can keep doing it until you succeed.

It can become very tedious, especially in Final Fantasy Tactics when certain very good loot drops off targets and the battle grind to a halt until you get what you want. The worst if the fight against Elmdore, since he has a full suit of shit to grab off him and some pieces have a very very low chance of success. I didn't bother with it until I played the game on an emulator to save state that shit.

 

[Alienman]

Risen.

Talk nonsense with people and steal their stuff while doing so. Always loved that system.

And for some absurdity. Max your thieving skill to max in Skyrim and you can steal someones armor, while he is wearing it. Feels so damn cartoony

 

[Mustawd]

Risen.

Talk nonsense with people and steal their stuff while doing so. Always loved that system.

And for some absurdity. Max your thieving skill to max in Skyrim and you can steal someones armor, while he is wearing it. Feels so damn cartoony

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Risen.

Talk nonsense with people and steal their stuff while doing so. Always loved that system.

Yup, the pickpocket dialogues with the hookers were great, don't know why so many people say that Risen has bad writing.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Yeah, Fallout did- until the third part, where pickpocketing people turned you into Hitler.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Any pickpocketing mechanic that encourages savescumming is shit.

By that logic everything is shit, because everything short of super easy challenges encourage save scumming.

Everything _is_ shit. Incidentally, Incursion did pickpocketing pretty well, you got xp for it, letting you actually play as a stealthy thief. Roguelikes win again.

 

[Bésame Mucho]

Ive only seen one principle that makes pickpocket a normal mechanic and that is making it always succeed but only allow to take a certain amount depending on skill. Everything else is broken.

If getting caught is based on RNG and worth a reload -> broken.
If all you get is "money" in some form -> broken.
3d w-button simulators without skillchecks -> broken.

So whats left? LIke, OP is moron.
BG? RNG with the whole town fighting, idiot.
Morronshit? Crawling like a retard to avoid "visual" in epic engine!
Underrail? NPCs are ammo and stimpack barrels. Fucking Diablo. With rare excpetions.

Dreed
Irenaeus