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Galactic Civilization II: Twilight of the Arnor

Kos_Koa

Iron Tower Studio
Developer
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
315
The new gal civ expansion is coming out soon, yet I haven't heard anything mentioned on the codex about it. So what do you guys think? Dark Avatar did a lot for the core gameplay, so I can only assume that the new expansion will make another leap forward, though much of the improvements seem geared towards graphical revisions.

Here are some tidbits for those who haven't heard about it...Here here and here.

Discuss
 

Dmitron

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Sep 9, 2006
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My only gripe was the bland tech tree. Appears they've corrected that somewhat.

Think I'll be getting this..
 

thesheeep

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Twilight of the Arnold?

Wut?

schwarzenegger-arnold-photo-xl-arnold-schwarzenegger-6220749.jpg



Oh... I see...
 

dragonfk

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Damn the expansion looks terrific. I am truly amazed. I liked GC2 but I didnt like the way the civilizations seemed the same. GC2 just couldnt tackle with my memories of MoO2. But now, now I have High Hopes :) .
 

Jeff Graw

StarChart Interactive
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dragonfk said:
Damn the expansion looks terrific. I am truly amazed. I liked GC2 but I didnt like the way the civilizations seemed the same. GC2 just couldnt tackle with my memories of MoO2. But now, now I have High Hopes :) .

You like MoO 2? I guess it's time for me to do the "your favorite game sucks" speech:

MoO 2 is a horribly broken game, one that isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as it's predecessor. The game was basically ruined by four main flaws:

-Creative trait unbalanced everything.

-The research system was a huge step back from MoO 1 (in MoO 2 you can only focus on one technology branch at a time).

-MoO 2 had about a hundred times more micromanagement than MoO 1, especially in the planetary screen, even though MoO 1's colony management gave the user quite a bit more freedom.

-Turn based combat with huge fleets breaks the game: Not only are these battles slow and time wasting, but in the later part of the game, if you know how to build ships right, one side can completely wipe out his opponents fleet before he even gets the chance to move his ship.

Galciv 2 is also a broken game (Eg. Spam the economy starbases!), although not nearly as broken as MoO 2. This is coming from a guy who can beat the game on suicidal. Brad Wardell already knows my gripes with the game so hopefully they'll get fixed eventually. As for ToA, I love the idea of unique tech trees, I just hope the rest of the game gets fixed.
 

Elwro

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I thought the spam economy starbases tactic became useless a few patches ago. I might be mistaken, of course; if you can beat the game on suicidal you know more about it than me.

Generally, the way sliders & the economy work needs more clarification, that's for sure.
 

Jeff Graw

StarChart Interactive
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You might be right Elwro, as I haven't played the game for awhile and I just got back into the game to check it out ToA.

Anyway, some more criticism of Galciv 2 game mechanics:

One thing that they still need to fix is the AI for tech trading. They've moved in the right direction, but I can still do the least amount of research and have the highest tech rating just from trading with a bunch of AIs. AIs need to do more tech trading, making them more stubborn alone doesen't cut it. In fact, now the AI is now *too* stubborn. For example, the Harmony Crystals trade good is pretty much the single most important item to have in the game, yet the AIs won't even trade an item they've deemed "important" for them!

Minor races (free 15 quality planet, yay!) have become unbalancing, don't really add much to the game, and should be either fixed up or removed.

Stardock dropped the ball on governments -- you shouldn't be able to decrease taxes the week before the election to make everything right -- the game should take into account the average moral level for the year (with later turns counting more or something like that). There should also be a warning the week before an election.

Starbases should really move from a "only 4 per sector" to a "Can't build within X parsec distance of another starbase" model, and Military starbases should be given more usefulness.

Mega events should be pre-seeded to avoid "save-reload" syndrome on an unfavorable event.

Starships should be refitted at a planet or station, not in the middle of fucking space -- that's just common sense! Some kind of auto/batch refit option is a must as well.

Starship combat is boring, pretty much on the other extreme of MoO 2 combat. BoTF style combat would liven things up a hell of a lot without really slowing the game down.

Command points is an idea that very much needs to die. Create techs that increase the effectiveness of larger fleets? Sounds good to me. Artificially limit fleet size just because? Go sodomize yourself with something sharp and jagged!

Anything starship related needs a huge overhaul. The rock-paper-scissors ship design process can go fuck itself for being boring, shallow, and just plain unbelievable. For all the things it did wrong, Moo 2 absolutely nailed ship design, and that's what Galciv 2 *should* have striven for.

The lack of planetary bombardment is a bummer, and is a conscious design decision by Wardell that I absolutely disagree with as it limits play styles (and hence, the strategy aspect of the game, as well as replayability) and gives believability a huge slap in the face too.

I guess that if you want to sum it up, you could say that Galciv 2 kind of sucks because you don't *feel* like you're in command of an intergalactic empire. You feel like you're playing a game, and that really affects the way you strategize as you start thinking more about game mechanics and less about real, believable, and satisfying strategy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entire point of a galactic conquest game to feel like you're the leader of an intergalactic empire? However, thanks to Stardock's many unbelievable, unnecessary, playstyle-limiting abstractions you just can't do that in Galciv.
 

dragonfk

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Messages
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Jeff Graw said:
dragonfk said:
Damn the expansion looks terrific. I am truly amazed. I liked GC2 but I didnt like the way the civilizations seemed the same. GC2 just couldnt tackle with my memories of MoO2. But now, now I have High Hopes :) .

You like MoO 2? I guess it's time for me to do the "your favorite game sucks" speech:
I thinks its high time that I try to "I dont give a damn that my game sucks" comment :) .
Jeff Graw said:
MoO 2 is a horribly broken game, one that isn't worthy of being mentioned in the same breath as it's predecessor. The game was basically ruined by four main flaws:

-Creative trait unbalanced everything.

-The research system was a huge step back from MoO 1 (in MoO 2 you can only focus on one technology branch at a time).
True, very true. Thats why I always played Psilons :) .
Jeff Graw said:
-MoO 2 had about a hundred times more micromanagement than MoO 1, especially in the planetary screen, even though MoO 1's colony management gave the user quite a bit more freedom.
I never had problems with micromanagment in MoO2. Afterall you could always hire a governer. But I do love micromanagment, at least at the level MoO2 demanded from me.
Jeff Graw said:
-Turn based combat with huge fleets breaks the game: Not only are these battles slow and time wasting, but in the later part of the game, if you know how to build ships right, one side can completely wipe out his opponents fleet before he even gets the chance to move his ship.
Unfortunately here I must completly agree with you. For me it would just suffice to have combat from MoO1. All ships of the same type stacked in one unit. So in conclusion MoO2 is still the best in the outer and inner space :] .

As for GC2 goes, I dont like the combat( I just skip it), dont like the tech tree(in this department MoO2 is better, though its flaws), races fell the same(it was a while since I was playing MoO's but I could recite all the races avaible in the game, they were so charachteristic) and I think thats all.

Has anyone of you played MoO3? Is it worth buying?
 

TheLostOne

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Sep 5, 2007
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10 minutes into MoO3 I broke down crying.

Edit: Also, combat is my biggest beef with GC2. Not fun at all IMO. Without enjoyable combat the rest management part of the game loses its luster.
 

Elwro

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The ToA beta seems truly fantastic. I'd be playing it all the time if I wasn't preparing some content for the Codex :wink:
 

Elwro

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Not yet. But I'll do it later. Now it's something completely unexpected. :wink: But don't get your hopes up, I'm pretty sure you'll be disappointed.
 

Kos_Koa

Iron Tower Studio
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Elwro said:
The ToA beta seems truly fantastic. I'd be playing it all the time if I wasn't preparing some content for the Codex :wink:
So what exactly is the fantastic part? Is seems like the tech tree is the biggest improvement, but a part of me thinks it may not add much to the gameplay.
 

JarlFrank

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Elwro said:
Not yet. But I'll do it later. Now it's something completely unexpected. :wink: But don't get your hopes up, I'm pretty sure you'll be disappointed.

Have you mentioned it in the staff forum already or is it something top-secret?

Reminds me, I still gotta write some stuff for Nedrah's interesting feature. :P
 

Jeff Graw

StarChart Interactive
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Well, there's also supposed to be better AI, and a new ground combat screen, but that's not in yet so I can't really comment. The graphics are also quite a bit improved.

Besides the unique tech trees (which don't get me wrong, is a huge improvement by itself) the game seems pretty much the same, which is a shame. For me, I like Galciv 2 less and less the more I play it --mainly because of all the damn abstractions and lack of character-- it just doesen't have the same legs as other, better, TBSes.

OT: I wish someone would take the main gameplay from MoO 1, but add the distinct tech trees from ToA combined with the space combat from BoTF and the ground combat from MoO III -- and set the thing in the Star Control universe.
 

dragonfk

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Jeff Graw said:
Well, there's also supposed to be better AI, and a new ground combat screen, but that's not in yet so I can't really comment. The graphics are also quite a bit improved.

Besides the unique tech trees (which don't get me wrong, is a huge improvement by itself) the game seems pretty much the same, which is a shame. For me, I like Galciv 2 less and less the more I play it --mainly because of all the damn abstractions and lack of character-- it just doesen't have the same legs as other, better, TBSes.

OT: I wish someone would take the main gameplay from MoO 1, but add the distinct tech trees from ToA combined with the space combat from BoTF and the ground combat from MoO III -- and set the thing in the Star Control universe.

And how is the performance? I usualy play GC2 on a laptop(and not very powerfull overall :) ), so will it run better or worse?
 

Jeff Graw

StarChart Interactive
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Supposedly Stardock found a way to use smaller yet better looking textures, so the performance should be improved if you have a shitty graphics card. I've only played the game on my main Core 2 Quad rig, and it's lightning fast in that setup.
 

dragonfk

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Messages
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Jeff Graw said:
Supposedly Stardock found a way to use smaller yet better looking textures, so the performance should be improved if you have a shitty graphics card. I've only played the game on my main Core 2 Quad rig, and it's lightning fast in that setup.

So I've heard, but you know, PR talking and all that. But if you've got such a rig you wont be able to tell the difference, hence my question to Elwro: Elwro how good is your rig and how do you find performance? :)
 

Elwro

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My rig: Amd 64 3500+
3 GBs of RAM, but I played the game with 1 GB
nVidia 6600 GT
Win XP

Performance is flawless.

For the me the new tech trees and unique techs (I hope the AI deal with tech trading properly) are the biggest improvement. There are also some interface changes (more info under right-click at last!), but they should be in a patch for vanilla version imo.
 

NiM82

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Have they fixed the attacker has advantage issue? I found GCII ridiculously easy, you didn't need to bother with armour, you could just spam ships (loaded with weapons) and first strike your way to glory. As long as you hit first, the fact you had no armour was irrelevant - provided you had enough fire-power to gain advantage T1.

Also have they've implemented timed turns? I find that quite handy for periods when your just waiting/building up and have other stuff to do :P
 

Elwro

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No.

And no.

But back to the first issue, what about fleet combat? First strike shouldn't be enough (generally) to kill a whole fleet.
 

NiM82

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It worked because the AI (on release) always used dispersed fleets early on. From the start I'd focus on a single weapon, build a single fleet of offensive ships and just rush their smaller fleets and outposts. Bigger fleets occasionally did survive, but were usually too castrated to put up much of a challenge, leaving me free to continue.

Later on, when the AI's (or what was left) began building tougher fleets and countering more, it did became a bit less viable - but by then the damage was nearly always done.
 

Jasede

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I really regretted buying GalCiv2 ages ago. It wasn't MoO 2 at all! I hoped it would be. Do the addons make it more MoO 2-esque?
 

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