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Fantasy Grand Strategy Game

MoLAoS

Guest
Due to Johan fucking up EU4, and the modding being simply impossible with such poor error checking and documentation, I figured I'd make my own game. My previous project was never finished, mainly due to issues with modifying the 3d graphics system and lacking good looking models. Basically the engine works but it died in the content stage. And sadly with a lack of amazing city building and rts games out it was hard to be inspired to finish the game as I was more and more playing grand strategy and turn based stuff. Also because I started with an open source engine there was no profit motivation either.

Anyways, I'm starting today on this project and hopefully it will be less of a massive undertaking due to requiring far less art asset wise and 3d graphics programming wise. Also I won't have to contend with a codebase that was not intended for my purpose, poorly done in some areas, and generally not amenable to easy modification.

I'd expect about 2 years of dev time, compared with the 3 or so I spent on my 3d exploratory strategy game and also much less downtime where I'm not motivated to work.

In order to shave a lot of work off compared to Paradox the game will probably not be as pretty as Paradox games, it won't have the history files like paradox games, won't have hard coded national ideas and all that stuff.

My goals are basically to create a game where you make actual decisions and the nature of your country springs mostly from your decisions over the game. Countries will not have hard coded national ideas and what not, nor the sliders of EU4. There will be a large number of variables that you can leave at base, or push to one end, slowly over the course of centuries, which will distinguish your nation. This changes will be driven by rituals in the case of magic, and follow naturally from your military and economic decisions otherwise. The changes in some areas will be sped up slightly from real life, for lore purposes perhaps assume that genetic divergence is sped up by ambient magic in the world or something. For instance nations that live in cold or high places will slowly become much more tolerant of the conditions there, thus giving them economic and military boosts compared to nations who are primarily based on hot wet low lands, but will be less effective in environments of the opposite extreme. Nations that live in the woods would slowly become more skilled at woods craft over time, while plains nations become better at say, cavalry warfare or something. Hopefully these changes will be on a per province level slightly modified by the total. So if you had a national region that was really cold but the rest of you lived in a more mild climate, you could recruit specialized cold troops. However a nation with 10 colder provinces to your one would specialize faster.

Magic and technology would be two similar variables to temperature but contrary to some standards, would not themselves be opposites. You could become a highly magical and highly technical society. The negative consequences here would somewhat mimic real life. Highly technical societies would drop in population growth and, not in real life since magic isn't real, highly magical societies would experience consequences like strange births, and maybe natural disasters to simulate mucking with nature. You could then either have the government kill monstrous births or train them for combat or something.

Although science and magic are not direct opposites, both would drain your cognitive resources. Unless you did some sort of long breeding program through magic or science to produce a smarter populace, your limited numbers of smart people would be split over a diverse number of activities, whereas a purely magically focused society would have more powerful magic generally, although they wouldnt benefit from magitech options. Notably, aside from training for intelligence taking a long period of time and lots of resources, you would generally become genetically weaker physically or maybe spawn some genetic diseases or something.

Economic policy generally follows similar patterns to the things above, specializing has consequences that are both good and bad. Similarly with autonomy and what not. Due to the nature of magic and science in this world however centralized states may not be the most effective unlike in our world where there was a massive push towards them.

In any case, off to work programming, I gotta spend less time talking about my game than I did last time and more time working on making it a reality.
 

Malakal

Arcane
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You made a game? Link so we can tell if theres anything to look forward to.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
I didn't finish the game. I got through the engine part, and I was in the process of setting up a test faction to do some playtesting with, mainly try to make the economic city building part fun. Then I got really into Europa Universalis before they ruined it, and EVE Online. Also I got banned from Bay12 where I was posting a lot about it due to an unrelated piece of drama where I ended up calling Tarn Adams a shitlord and other nasty things in a PM.

https://github.com/MoLAoS/Mandate
That's the Github link for my fork on GAE with a couple 100k lines of new code for city building and Majesty like stuff.
https://forum.megaglest.org/index.php?board=27.0
There's a link to the forum for Glest games, specifcally my subforum which has what is essentially my blog about the game, except in forum thread form.
https://www.youtube.com/user/MatrimCuathon/videos
That's a link to my youtube account from way back that I uploaded some videos to for mostly Glest and Bay12 people to look at.

I wish I could say I had finished the game but I really crashed and burned during the content adding phase. I am not a modeler and Glest compatible free art assets are a pain to find The videos mainly showcase stuff that would be cool for Glest people because GAE was dead and MegaGlest is about stable multiplayer rather than adding new features but compared to a commercial RTS its not very impressive.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
So you want some brainstorming or what in here? Too early to advertise.
I'm not opposed to brainstorming. I'm actually not sure why I made a thread already considering I have 0% actual work done. Posting about stuff does somewhat motivate me, so perhaps that's why I did it.

Since you mentioned brainstorming, did you have anything particular in mind?
 

Malakal

Arcane
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Joined
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Go for a King of the Dragon Pass/Annals of Rome type of game. Don't rely on AI, you wont handle coding a competent AI (no insult here, even huge dev studios rarely make competent AI), make players face overwhelming odds or the game itself, the mechanics.

This works in a low tech setting where the nature or the world kills your tribe/nation whatever or in a situation where there is degeneration/collapse best. Like a crumbling empire facing against hordes of orcs/undead/chaos whatever. Even if you win a battle you are still on the brink of collapse all the time.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Go for a King of the Dragon Pass/Annals of Rome type of game. Don't rely on AI, you wont handle coding a competent AI (no insult here, even huge dev studios rarely make competent AI), make players face overwhelming odds or the game itself, the mechanics.

This works in a low tech setting where the nature or the world kills your tribe/nation whatever or in a situation where there is degeneration/collapse best. Like a crumbling empire facing against hordes of orcs/undead/chaos whatever. Even if you win a battle you are still on the brink of collapse all the time.

I am a big fan of KoDP and had planned to incorporate some elements of that. However, KoDP is hardly a grand strategy game template. My ideal is more similar to Victoria2 +Dom4 +KoDP plus some zazz of my own. Mainly the part where your decisions have long term consequences. I haven't really seen a game pull off anything similar before.
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
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Poland
Go for a King of the Dragon Pass/Annals of Rome type of game. Don't rely on AI, you wont handle coding a competent AI (no insult here, even huge dev studios rarely make competent AI), make players face overwhelming odds or the game itself, the mechanics.

This works in a low tech setting where the nature or the world kills your tribe/nation whatever or in a situation where there is degeneration/collapse best. Like a crumbling empire facing against hordes of orcs/undead/chaos whatever. Even if you win a battle you are still on the brink of collapse all the time.

I am a big fan of KoDP and had planned to incorporate some elements of that. However, KoDP is hardly a grand strategy game template. My ideal is more similar to Victoria2 +Dom4 +KoDP plus some zazz of my own. Mainly the part where your decisions have long term consequences. I haven't really seen a game pull off anything similar before.

You can just up the scale from tribe to nation. The general idea doesnt stop you from creating decisions that affect the game long term.

Like maybe you get a map divided into provinces with your nation placed in a hostile world where it tries to survive the dangers it presents. So you manage population - whether to assign them as crafters or farmers or soldiers or traders, the goals - expanding farms or mines or maybe fleets, and then face the events that unfold - huge barbarian hordes moving in, disastrous winters, plagues etc. Long term consequences galore - you didnt invest in farming you face starvation, your army was neglected you face raiding etc. And ultimately you dont need to make a good AI as long as threats are big enough to challenge the player.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Go for a King of the Dragon Pass/Annals of Rome type of game. Don't rely on AI, you wont handle coding a competent AI (no insult here, even huge dev studios rarely make competent AI), make players face overwhelming odds or the game itself, the mechanics.

This works in a low tech setting where the nature or the world kills your tribe/nation whatever or in a situation where there is degeneration/collapse best. Like a crumbling empire facing against hordes of orcs/undead/chaos whatever. Even if you win a battle you are still on the brink of collapse all the time.

I am a big fan of KoDP and had planned to incorporate some elements of that. However, KoDP is hardly a grand strategy game template. My ideal is more similar to Victoria2 +Dom4 +KoDP plus some zazz of my own. Mainly the part where your decisions have long term consequences. I haven't really seen a game pull off anything similar before.

You can just up the scale from tribe to nation. The general idea doesnt stop you from creating decisions that affect the game long term.

Like maybe you get a map divided into provinces with your nation placed in a hostile world where it tries to survive the dangers it presents. So you manage population - whether to assign them as crafters or farmers or soldiers or traders, the goals - expanding farms or mines or maybe fleets, and then face the events that unfold - huge barbarian hordes moving in, disastrous winters, plagues etc. Long term consequences galore - you didnt invest in farming you face starvation, your army was neglected you face raiding etc. And ultimately you dont need to make a good AI as long as threats are big enough to challenge the player.


This is still not really map painting/grand strategy in the sense that I would like. Its more like a KoDP-like scaled up a bit. It might be a cool idea in a different game project though.
 

Malakal

Arcane
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Well whatever, just dont be surprised when your game fails as a sp product because there is too much options in it to make a half decent AI like is the case in Dominions4 and EU4.

Thats the main issue when creating a complicated SP games - if its difficult and has a lot of options AI wont be able to play with you. This makes map painting the same as using MS Paint.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Well whatever, just dont be surprised when your game fails as a sp product because there is too much options in it to make a half decent AI like is the case in Dominions4 and EU4.

Thats the main issue when creating a complicated SP games - if its difficult and has a lot of options AI wont be able to play with you. This makes map painting the same as using MS Paint.

EU4 was fun until Johan shat all over it. Dominions 4 is still fun, if only I had the time for such a time sucking machine. There is no single player strategy game that doesn't get solved eventually because it can't change so you can just play it till you figure out the tricks. Well actually my game can change, both my RTS attempt and my GSG one. The actual secret of strategy games is that if the AI plays like a person, people call it a cheater because of their egos. I've read comments like that from a few big strategy names. Dom4 actually is too much for an AI, but EU4 is just a product of how fucking clueless Johan is. Even when they hired that player to do AI for them they still couldn't handle it.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Why the fuck do people use glest instead of spring? http://www.listal.com/list/grind-micro-tedium-interface I suggest strategy #1. Think of adding features as a game of Jenga. Your latest demo video makes me think the economy needs to be set up exactly the same way every game. What are you makeing your game in/on top of?

Glest has some nice advantages over Spring. It was far more suited for my project than Spring was. Not least because I'm not an art person and Spring clearly lacks good fantasy art assets. I looked into a ton of projects and the Glest Advanced Engine, not Glest vanilla or MegaGlest, was the one most easy to modify to my desires. My project only failed due to a specific combination of psychological issues I had at the time and life circumstances. I also discarded 0AD as an option. Spring had limited assets I could use, as too focused on multiplayer, and a lot of core design decisions were quite meh IMO.

To be clear those videos were from my previous project that died during the content adding stage. They have nothing to do with my current project. Either way I don't understand what you mean about the economy.

My project is probably using SDL2.0, wxWidgets, OpenGL as the base for the engine stuff. Normally I'd use some LGPL or GPL stuff but those licenses aren't good for commercial stuff.
 

Destroid

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Any particular reason to go with SDL and OGL over something that could get your going faster like Unityor UE4?
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Any particular reason to go with SDL and OGL over something that could get your going faster like Unityor UE4?
Fees? Not being able to modify source, performance, bad version control, honestly a ton of reasons. Also programming is fun. Unity is not fun.
 

Dim

Not sure if advertising plant?
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
562
Location
Syndi Vegit notanatzi
Not least because I'm not an art person and Spring clearly lacks good fantasy art assets. Spring had [] a lot of core design decisions were quite meh IMO.
Assets are somehow attached to the Glest3(4?) engine? Can't port em due to license?
I really want to hear about these faulty design decisions. Maybe it wasn't available then but you should see ZK's LUA mechanics.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Not least because I'm not an art person and Spring clearly lacks good fantasy art assets. Spring had [] a lot of core design decisions were quite meh IMO.
Assets are somehow attached to the Glest3(4?) engine? Can't port em due to license?
I really want to hear about these faulty design decisions. Maybe it wasn't available then but you should see ZK's LUA mechanics.
Glest has its own image format. But even if porting them was easy, they were mostly sci fi assets.

I know how the Spring Lua mechanics work. I looked at Spring quite a lot early on. It may or may not be better now, I haven't looked since I chose to use Glest Advanced Engine in 2012. My massive rewrite/fork of GAE served me quite well, it was mostly life related issues that derailed me in the end.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
In any case engine choice isn't really the topic for this. And I suggested to prospective Glest modders to do SpringRTS when it seemed more appropriate.

More on topic, I've got SDL working and basic map mechanics functioning. Not that hard though I'd imagine. Integrating wxWidgets with SDL will be the hard part. I'd tentatively suggest that I will have an ugly as fuck functioning game by the time I have work again in 2.5 days. Not super feature rich though. And my bitmap art is terribad.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Swapped to SFML. Already farther along in a few hours this morning than I was in 12 hours of SDL. SFML just has more intuitive classes/functions for the way my brain works. Kinda sad I blew those days off trying to use SDL. Also SFML2.0 has massively superior documentation to SDL2.0 and their Google results to my searches are more helpful. I work an average of 7 hours for at least the next 4 days and I have EVE shit to do, but hopefully I can get to work next time I have some days off. I'll probably only have a couple hours to work on this per day in the next 4 days.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
Alright, I've set up the game data folder and some of the important game data classes. Provinces are loading from file have some of their information. The GUI is up and running, I decided to use TGUI which is an SFML based GUI so that I don't have to integrate anything like i would with wxWidgets. It turns out that given my library choices, the code for the actual game data will probably take the most work to get running.
 

pakoito

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AFAIK SFML is C++ where SDL2 is still stuck in a C-centric approach. I still vouch for Libgdx if you're not going for top of the line graphics in need of deep performance, you save yourself from the portability woes, the API is just nice to use and the tools are getting better, pushing it to half-framework half engine status.
 

MoLAoS

Guest
SFML is a lot more C++-like, but its also just much easier to use and set up and has better support on top of that.

Libgdx is Java and Java is a blight on the face of mankind. C++ or Python is much better depending on your needs.
 

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