Examples of non-combat actions in turn-based combat?

[Awor Szurkrarz]

This thread shows that most of cRPGs are shit.

 

[Excidium]

Indeed. Anything that is possible out of combat should be possible in combat and vice versa.

Having any distinction beyond the way time is tracked is p. dumb to begin with

 

[Arkadin]

Vault Dweller and the crew were looking into implementing a full turn-based stealth system in Age of Decadence, but they decided not to in the end as the game already has so much going on in it. Still, I thought their ideas sounded great and a hell of a step forward from what you usually see.

 

[Johannes]

If something is done in combat it's a combat action, it would seem to be. Doing something in a combat mode, otoh, doesn't always mean you're actually engaged in combat.


But to get any typical non-combat actions interact with the fightan part, just don't define things you can or cannot do by being in a specific combat mode or not. And have some tight mission design with some time limits of some kind. So you might have one guy who does lockpicking, talking, magic ritualing, bomb planting, safe unloading, in a specific location while the rest of the group holds the enemies at bay or distracts them otherwise, until that guy's done.

A good RPG mission should be able to be comparable to a plan in a heist film or such, or James Bond or whatever - just that you don't provide a single solution but a framework where the player can piece together a plan to use his characters' abilites in concert and win against odds that would be insurmountable by simple head-on approach.
Just define lots of general things, how they work. So if you've got a mansion you want to steal something from, where does the electricity come from? Allow the players to cut it off if they get a guy with the right skill in the right place. And define how the guards will react to the lights going off. What patrol routes do the guards keep, and if you manage to take one out silently how soon will the others take note? Can you get inside the mansion in a legit way, even if you'll have to pass a security check then? Can you bribe guards? Are there secret tunnels in the house you can learn about, before or during the mission? Does it matter if you're discovered, as long as you get away with your objective?

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

Being able to take people prisoner is such a dynamic option that it surprises me it's not used more. Why can't I beat a guy unconscious with my fists and then tie him up/handcuff him? The interrogation dialogues would be great.

 

[SCO]

JA2 had the most complete system i remember, excluding certain (complicated) roguelikes. This is because it put it's major focus on equipment and tactical movement so it had many equipment and movement subsystems accessible from 'day one' % money instead of leveled character upgrades. Made the UI a bit of a mess though.

Things i remember from it:
throwing to enemies/ to party members
hand-to-hand
climbing sneaking crawling walking running
covering fire (AP drain)
applying bandaging to self and others (not a immediate action)
destroying walls
changing to off-hand guns

things like nethack extend the idea of equipment as multi-use. A sword can engrave, potions of confusion can 'invert' effects from enchantment scrolls, etc.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Vault Dweller and the crew were looking into implementing a full turn-based stealth system in Age of Decadence, but they decided not to in the end as the game already has so much going on in it. Still, I thought their ideas sounded great and a hell of a step forward from what you usually see.

Good move. It would probably be disastrous for a game to try to do everything, and attempt every ambitious idea possible.

If someone were to pitch me, "I am making a game with the stealth system of Thief, the exploration of Morrowind, the turn-based combat of Temple of Elemental Evil, and the dialogue of Arcanum, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment", I'd think, "Riiiiiight" and slowly back away.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Attempts at negotiating or taunting come to mind; either as distarctions, in hopes for mistake or a peaceful solution.

That's an excellent idea that's never been exploited so far in any CRPGs that I know of. You should be able to try persuasion rolls during combat to defuse the situation, that's how it works in real life: when you get engaged in a street fight (obviously not talking about war) you generally try to calm things down, it's not: kill or be killed. Of course this mechanic wouldn't work with beasts or people from a faction which absolutely wants to see you dead (either for plot reasons or because you started butchering other people from the same faction before for example). The whole mechanic would give more value to diplomatic stats.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Other than Stealth and some complex item creation systems where I can be ODC about it, I always find non-combat actions to be boring.

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

Well just stick to tactical RPGs then. For me, and most of the Codex I suppose, story, exploration, puzzles and interactions with the world are as important as combat in CRPGs. Important non-combat actions during combat seems like a great global mechanism to explore since it could add a whole new dimension to computer roleplaying if done cleverly. Nice design choice, @ksaun (even if it's just testing the waters).

 

[Sergiu64]

Well, I liked how in Expeditions: Conquistadors different classes would get different buff like actions to perform, depending on their class. Like move at half speed but don't trigger attacks of opportunity, or make surrounding allies have your soldier's high defense for a bit. A lot of these would use up your move action or your attack action.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Deus ex: (1 and 3)
1 - hack turrets and bots to slaughter your enemies
2 - flcik invis enough to get into cover and stealth-kill
3- (3 only) use the infinite fall damage (yeaah the jump aug does the same in Deus Ex 1, but there's far less opportunity to use it to escape combat) aug in combination with stealth to skip 3 lfloors of enemies and gtfo of the zone;
4 - Stealth + luring using noise + LAMS
5 Find the switch to let ALL the greasels out of the cage and screw EVERYBODY (probably incliuding yourself)

 

[Beautiful Clown Painting]

All of the things you cited @Azrael the cat , are, for me, still combat mechanics, even if they're not in general implemented. When properly implemented, they're great nevertheless. But solving a combat situation by diplomatic ways and being able to rallye the enemy by your side while the combat is still raging on (without using the equivalent of a "charm" spell) seems to be something to explore, never seen it done before. Diplomatic stats in general serve to entirely skip a combat before this one is initiated, it's a 0 or 1 situation.

 

[majestik12]

This must be obvious, but GURPS rulebooks provide turn-based mechanics for pretty much every action that can take place during combat.

 

[DraQ]

If someone were to pitch me, "I am making a game with the stealth system of Thief, the exploration of Morrowind, the turn-based combat of Temple of Elemental Evil, and the dialogue of Arcanum, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment", I'd think, "Riiiiiight" and slowly back away.

I'd do that too.
To make room for my raging hardon.

 

[DragoFireheart]

If someone were to pitch me, "I am making a game with the stealth system of Thief, the exploration of Morrowind, the turn-based combat of Temple of Elemental Evil, and the dialogue of Arcanum, Fallout, and Planescape: Torment", I'd think, "Riiiiiight" and slowly back away.

I'd do that too.
To make room for my raging hardon.

More like blue balls.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

Most folks here already covered some good ones, so I can only add one from Chrono Cross. Some characters were born under certain elemental signs like Red being for fire, blue for water, and so on. As you fought, the game would randomly change the dominant element shown on an upper part of the screen. The dominant element would cause people born under said element to fight better for that turn. Later in the game your characters could use a non-combat action to try to influence the outcome of what element would show next. Probably a bit esoteric for what ksaun is looking for, but I figure it couldn't hurt.

The old SSI games like Wizard's Crown and the Gold Box games had a bunch of options too, from delaying, to standing guard, bandaging wounds, changing facing, and so on.

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

It would be cool if you could initiate dialogue after someone has gone hostile on you. I can't see how it would be hard to implement in a TB system, the character could use his turn to make a plea, or to reason with the enemy, or to suggest offers etc. This would be a cool use for a speech type skill, maybe something like negotiation, suggesting its combat applications.

Maybe if you hurt them a little, it's easier to negotiate. Say you beat them down and the skill checks get lower, because they are realizing they might actually die. This is one of the biggest immurrshunn breakers in games. Enemy NPCs throw their lives away for nothing so easily in games, to the point where their bullheaded willingness to die makes it really tricky to play pacifist runs. This gameplay feature would be cool from a roleplay/morality perspective, and is great for some good LARP storyfaggin (but you could also design cool content around this non-combat combat action)

 

[Galdred]

I fondly remember HeroQuest but I dunno why specifically you bring it up here. The entire game is in turn-based, obviously, but it's pretty much purely combat-based from what I remember.

Actually, there are a few non combat actions, like searching for traps, secret passage, and treasure, but they can only be performed if there are no enemy in the location.

Descent and Mansions of Madness are indeed much better exemples :
In Descent, you usually have to perform an objective before being swarmed by monsters and spells (not anymore in Descent v2, but you still have to perform the objective before the evil overlord performs his).
The non combat actions usually require some test checks (you have to roll enough success in total to overcome the obstacle).
Descent is really interesting, because its gameplay really trashes any RPG combat I have ever played (and is on par with JA2 or X-COM). All of its missions have a very strong feeling of urgency, as the overlord can summon reinforcements frequently, or play nasty events that make the heroes' task even harder to overcome.

Mansions of madness is much less focused on combat, so the actions are even more varied : you are basically hurrying to solve puzzles (to lockpick a room, or understand a riddle for instance) before the horrors you outran can catch up with you, or desperately searching for anything that resembles a weapon as you got cornered by maniacs and cultists.

Or it is possible to go the opposite way, and have mostly non combat turn based game with a few combat moves, like in Blood Bowl.

The advantage of non combat focused system is that it allows for a wider array of objectives, and usually a better sense of urgency.

 

[mpxd]

Another couple from JA2 that I didn't notice listed:

-Frantically waiting while my backup medic applies first aid under fire to stop my only doctor from bleeding out.
-Putting loose ammo into magazines for later use
-Suppressing fire

 

[Ulminati]

You could do worse than looking at d&d 4E's combat mechanics. While it failed miserably as a pen and paper system, the combat was obviously designed with a computerized implementation in mind. With the computer keeping track of durations, status effects and so on, combat flows at a reasonable pace as opposed to a glacial one. (Some clever people made a RPTools framework for 4E). The system puts emphasis on positioning and movement, and all characters usually have several valid tactical choices every combat round. (As opposed to moving to squishy target A and using their strongest attack). The interesting systems you refer to in shadowrun are not mechanics so much as specialized objectives. Decking essentially just splits up your party in two. The first bug spirit encounter is more of a puzzle boss and so on.

Combining objectives (defend NPC, survive for X rounds, reach waypoint, perform ritual) with environmental hazards (water slows movement, ice has chance of making you fall prone, rocks fall in random square - reflex save or damage, burning floor - ongoing damage, leyline - spells are empowered) and set pieces (enemies trigger giant boulder trap, npcs man a ballista and so on) are all valid ways of spicing up combat encounters. If you dig up some of the old published 3.5E Eberron adventure modules, I seem to remember most of them having one or more "set piece encounters" that introduced special events/encounters/hazards to spice things up.

If you're looking for completely out-there-yet-interesting mechanics for combat, you should probably confer with the codex seaboard brigade. For all their shortcomings, it seems many jrpgs bring weird and interesting combat mechanics to the table.