Evil in RPG

[tuss]

Actually, i think the concept of "evil" is something that should be avoided in most RPGs because it tends to make the plot/situation/person shallow and simple. The D&D evil thing is totally stupid and that black and white view has nothing to do in a mature RPG.

What I'd like to see is real evil. Things that are truly horrible and gruesome. I want the villain to make terrible and selfish acts that *actually* makes me want to kill him. The "destroy the world" thing isn't anything more than a plot. I don't give a shit, its just a goal at the end of the game, to stop this or that.

I would also like to be presented with the opportunity to do acts of evil my self. And then, i don't mean should i sell the girl to slavery and get 50gp or set her free to get rep +5. I am going to play an evil character i want the consequences of what I do to be presented to me in such a way that i hesitate before making the choice, feel sick and ashamed after doing it an leave me with a big knot i my stomach. Evil acts aren't something people just do and i want games to make that clear. I want "evil" in games to be just as horrible and disgusting as things in the real world that makes our skin crawl and takes away our sleep.

So my question is this. Have you ever had that experience in a game. That the main villain, a monster or whatever actually acted in a way that made you (the person in front of the screen) angry, afraid or disgusted? And have you ever had the choice to act in a way that mad you think "No way. I just cant do it..."?

I certainly haven't. I kill monsters because that what I know the game wants me to do, no because I think the world would be a better place without them...

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

What I'd like to see is real evil. Things that are truly horrible and gruesome. I want the villain to make terrible and selfish acts that *actually* makes me want to kill him. The "destroy the world" thing isn't anything more than a plot. I don't give a shit, its just a goal at the end of the game, to stop this or that.

YES. Villains like that are so very, very, rare, and they're the ones I most love/hate - the villains who you hate because of what they do, how they act, not because of their goals. I can't really recall off-hand any game villains like this - there are a few in books.

 

[Seboss]

The FBI agent in Carrion Comfort, Richard Haines IIRC, is one of them. Damn ! How much I wanted that bastard to die in suffering and misery.

 

[Ankheg]

In existing games evil solution is constantly ridiculous. Did you choose money? Heh, you're evil, dude. Did you steal some fruits? You're really evil. If you didn't save somebody, you are absolut evil.

I noticed that especially in KOTOR. You can't be a great villain, you're to be petty scoundrel, timid and stealing small things.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I think true evil, as we would know it, has never really been done in the games because let's face it, you'd be boycotted by idiots all over I would think. ANd there is a big difference between mugging someone, killing them, and becoming a serial killer using the same pattern each time, or maybe a notorious child murderer, etc. etc. I would also like the chance to play a serial killer type character, where the game actually reacts to the presence of a serial killer.

 

[obediah]

i want the consequences of what I do to be presented to me in such a way that i hesitate before making the choice, feel sick and ashamed after doing it an leave me with a big knot i my stomach.

The only time I can think of feeling that way in a game was Shadow of the Collusus, and there wasn't reall a choice. It just felt like dirty, evil work.

Most RPGs just don't have the immersion to pull it off for me. Usually when I do something "evil" that get's an NPC killed or raped or whatever, I just chukle *oops* and move on. I do remember being presented with choices in Planescape where I was curiuos to see the results, but just couldn't do it. So I don't know if the affect of doing wrong was as powerful as the compulsion to do right.

 

[HotSnack]

What I'd like to see is real evil. Things that are truly horrible and gruesome. I want the villain to make terrible and selfish acts that *actually* makes me want to kill him.

ARRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIESSSSS!!!!!!!111111 NOOOOOOO!!!11111111

Though on a more serious note:

Actually, i think the concept of "evil" is something that should be avoided in most RPGs because it tends to make the plot/situation/person shallow and simple. The D&D evil thing is totally stupid and that black and white view has nothing to do in a mature RPG.

You know, I used to think just like this, though now I believe it's quite possible to create a smart and "mature" setting where the universe seems to run on a black and white morality. You should of course, give players the opportunities to play out whether their characters believe in this or that they have their own, "crazy" belief that the world is full of shades (hence why I use the term "seems"), and I guess in doing so you already introduced some mature elements (seriously, you could probably cut and paste your average internet philosophy/morality threads into your game and you'd have people swooning at how deep it is). If you haven't read the Discworld books, I'd say check out the ones featuring the watchmen. The character Sam Vimes manages to stick to his belief of a distinct right and wrong without coming off as some kind of crazy with a stick up his arse.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

If I kill a couple of people in almost exactly the same way, all at night in alleys etc, I want the news to say that there is a serial killer out, so that only the bravest or most foolhardy would be out, etc, etc. Not only that but I want people to react differently to you, but it wouldnt be just you, but to all strangers that pass through their area. I want mothers to shelter their children, usbands to shelter their wives, and I want to make it obvious that suspicion is everywhere. not only that, but maybe a copycat could eventually come up, and you can either hunt him down yourself, help the police do it, continue along with your killing spree, or join up with him, etc, etc. The list goes on and on.

Edit: A similar situation would be how you make yourself warlord of a city through force. Everynow and then you'll have to make an example of some poor schmuck, and the more brutal and senseless the killing is, the better.
Say you grow weary of murdering random people, and instead bring them before you only to pardon them, etc. etc. If you do this too often, any number of things could happen: A rival strongman within the city could usurp you, an outsiding warmongerer could see this as weakness and attack, the people could see you growing old and tired and revolt, etc. The list goes on and on. I would like it if a game would force you to continue the status quo in a way, as if you didnt, you could not maintain the rank that you had gotten through ill means. Not only that, but you could target people who "got too big for their britches, etc" within your own little empire, and those friends you felt you couldnt trust anymore. Shit like that in a game would be cool as hell.

Another scenario would be instead of taking over, you collect a tax from the town. You have a set schedule for this, and if you choose to miss a few, there would be consequences. The town could decide to hire protection against you. They could think you've gone for good and prosper, or soemone could take over in your stead, claiming to be collecting for you, a local perhaps that has grown too powerful, or a rival raider or warlord. There could be a number of ways to solve this quest as well. Might play out to be rather interesting if you ask me.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Bump

 

[mlc82]

I agree 100% with the topic starter, I love a good RPG but find most of their plots/characters to be just cheesy.

I am flat out sick and tired of D&D and anything else that seems to revere Lord of the Rings as god, granted LotR wasn't bad, but it was yet another plot about the standard "Bad guy who wants to take over the world because he is bad" fare. I also am in the minority in thinking Baldur's Gate was flat out boring, typical cardboard cliche "fantasy" characters (most of whom were just annoying as hell), and a story that just didn't evoke any real interest in me at all. Maybe I just read too many books that are much deeper and more interesting in the storyline department. Yes I hated Minsc and couldn't wait for him to die, along with Imoen and that annoying bastard Khalid. :D They all seemed to me like they would have been more appropriate in a cartoon or something than any serious story.

I also lean toward "darker" and more mature themed games for the reason that they actually can bring out more of an emotional response to play... I've never really wanted to play as an evil character really, but it's vey rare to find a game with a "bad guy" that I just can't wait to kill off. It's usually the standard bad guy formula (which never feels "real" enough to pull you in) of "kidnapped the Princess" or "Wants to Destroy The World" or "Unleashed the Plague upon the Town that your Character has Mysteriously Arrived In", or the now cliched "Holds the Answers to your Mysterious Past" and etc etc.

I can think of very few games where I personally just hated the villain... IIRC there were one or two in Deus Ex (one of my favorite games of all time- the original, not the atrocity of a sequel) that I was just dying to slaughter. Their were a few NPCs in the Fallout games who made me wish for a "Mutilate and Rape with Own Body Parts" option in the conversation trees, those are also on the "Favorite Games of all Time" list. SHODAN in System Shock 2 was one truly creepy villain also.

I can't think of too many others, really most PC RPG's I've started I've ended up just quitting about halfway through out of sheer boredom due to either playing through all of the side quests I could find and not being able to force myself to care a bit about the main storyline (Arcanum), or my party members annoying me so badly with their antics that would have seemed much more at place in a kid's show than anywhere else (Baldur's Gate games). Then again I really don't finish over half of the games I start playing for the same reason (boredom at some point), most of the ones I HAVE played through are on the favorites list anyway.

 

[Tal]

So my question is this. Have you ever had that experience in a game. That the main villain, a monster or whatever actually acted in a way that made you (the person in front of the screen) angry, afraid or disgusted? And have you ever had the choice to act in a way that mad you think "No way. I just cant do it..."?

Well, there was this one quest in Kotor where on Tatooine, a woman was begging you to buy a animal skull from her because her husband was killed. You had the standard good guy option, super good guy option, and bad guy option. What made me remember it though was that if your Mind trick power was high enough, you could mind trick the woman to give you the skull willingly. Immediatly after she does it though, she snaps out of it, and hates you for life, bla bla bla. Threatining the poor woman was something a bully would do, but manipulating the woman to give it to you sounds like something an evil Sith Lord would do. It's the most "evil" I've felt in any RPG I've played, and more games should have evil options along those lines.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I thnk Planescape Torment had options like that. not sure tho.

 

[jiujitsu]

I think true evil shouldn't be your main adversary, but should be in the game to interact with.

Fallout had something like this. The Master and the Enclave weren't exactly evil. They just believed that they found a better way. Either turn everyone into mutants or destroy all the mutants. You can agree or disagree.

The Khans, however, are just plain bastards who thrive at the expense of others no matter who they are. I'd say raiders, Gizmo, Decker, mutant haters of Broken Hills, and New Reno gang families are examples of true evil in the games, but aren't your main goal.

Gothic 3 supposedly has no evil factions. You can join whoever you want to agree with. I'm sure they'll still have bandits and servants of Beliar running around too, though.

 

[RK47]

I like my evil to be subtle and manipulative. The best type would be those that I can choose to reveal my betrayal AFTER certain things happened. Such as someone killed another, stole something and gave it to me from my manipulations.

I'd love RPG that can implement that sort of post-manipulation consequences. If I tell him right away that I just fooled him he might react differently depending on my reputation or other attributes such as strength (you wouldn't threaten a guy in full plate and wielding 2 handed axes or has 5 followers behind him).

Or if I never told him, he'll find out in a few days time and when I meet him again, he'll confront me about it.

Heck, even subtle touches like pointing a sword to a shopkeeper's neck or bashing their shop to get a little bit of money would be great. Gives you more options on how to get some gold instead of the usual, kill the guy bash his chest or lockpick at night we get better intimidating options.

 

[Higher Game]

I abhor the "evil voice" and dress found in almost all villains. They all have a bass voice and dress in black, and the hero is an effiminate tenor (or higher, these days...) with shiny armor. This crap has been going on for centuries in operas, so I won't hold my breath for it to end, but it needs to.

 

[whitemithrandir]

I made the wookiee kill that twi'lek the first time I played KOTOR.

I felt bad afterwards.

On my second play through, I noticed what a stupid character the Twi'lek was, so I got the wookiee to do it again.

Didn't feel as bad.

 

[RK47]

Hm most evil moment i refused was Fable's finale. I had to sacrifice my own sister to get a powerful artifact.

 

[psycojester]

Yeah to bad it was just a Binary Yes/No Good/Evil choice that removed the illusion of building your characters alignment

 

[Gambler]

IMO, good and evil as they are depicted in coputer games are throughoutly fake. They are just a couple of convenient cliches crafted from jeudo-christian cocncepts, which wern't so great in the first place. Too simple to reflect the reality.

KOTOR2 had an interesting take on the dark side. I liked it's "philosophy" much more than the stuff from the movies. But it wasn't perfect either.

Have you ever had that experience in a game. That the main villain, a monster or whatever actually acted in a way that made you (the person in front of the screen) angry, afraid or disgusted?

To a some degree, Karas in Thief 2. He was truly scary, because he was really insane, not in a way villains usually are.

And have you ever had the choice to act in a way that mad you think "No way. I just cant do it..."?

In Planescape, yes. But that was probably because of the role I chose to play.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

We really need a good anti-hero in our rpgs.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Well, like you guys are suggesting, I think real evil is just really a bit beyond simple scripting. Unless we get an AI capable of understanding human emotion, it seems like scripts are pretty well the way things will get handled. If you want to do something the developers didn't anticipate, like disemboweling small children and hanging their guts on the mayor's front door like Christmas wreaths along with little notes quoting Vanilla Ice songs, don't expect the game to respond meaningfully other than maybe sending bounty hunters after you for killing children.

 

[Lord Chambers]

If you want to do something the developers didn't anticipate, like disemboweling small children and hanging their guts on the mayor's front door like Christmas wreaths along with little notes quoting Vanilla Ice songs, don't expect the game to respond meaningfully other than maybe sending bounty hunters after you for killing children.

Stop reading my diary.

 

[Romanian_Dude2005]

If a villain is realy evil, then what's stoping me from liking him if I play a evil character? A villain should be the kind of guy who is obsest with making my life shit instead of dooming the world. In that case I can hate him regardless of his aligment

 

[tuss]

I realy don't think this comes down to good AI. Killing children at random dosen't feel evil to me. it makes me think of somone being bored while playing a game. Random acts of violence and how the game copes with that is not what i am looking for. To give the player a real sens of how terrible a act is the designers need to do some impressive writing, and actualy create situations with emotional impact.

But maybe i just lack the empathy and imagination to realy care. I cant say i have felt warm and fuzzy after doing a act of unimaginable good either. Torment had some emotionaly strong moments, its not a common thing i games.

But that is what i want damn it! I want lots of feeling! Make me cry you bastards.. I dont give a crap about my +3 flaming ring of monkey madness. That doesn't matter. I want to be immersed in the world and feel a connection to the NPCs.. Otherwise i could just play diablo for an hour and then read a good fantasy novel...

 

[dunduks]

But that is what i want damn it! I want lots of feeling! Make me cry you bastards.. I dont give a crap about my +3 flaming ring of monkey madness. That doesn't matter. I want to be immersed in the world and feel a connection to the NPCs.. Otherwise i could just play diablo for an hour and then read a good fantasy novel...

If you want to feel really shitty, play FO2 Modoc farm quest, then either don't find Karl or make them attack the ghost farm.
Actually both fallouts had these really excelent evil choices, where you acted smart, but not as a complete psycho.