Editorial Eurogamer: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 Retrospective

[Krash]

PS:T is awesome you jerk. And weren't you supposed to stop shitposting boring one-liners (yes I know irony whatever), and instead grace us with insight and wit worthy of teh grorious Codex?

 

[Krash]

I'd like to note that while I kinda liked BG1 and loved BG2 this doesn't mean they're without flaws. And I'm p. certain the other "Fans" feel something in that vein. So someone uttering something vaguely positive about said series does not need to be rebuked by a fabulously butthurt response every single time. Maybe we could chalk it up to taste and move on (unless we're in codex workshop, which we aren't, where we could debate game mechanics on their own merit oh who am I kidding).

But of course not. Your opinion is wrong, my opinion is right, 20 pages here we come.

 

[Lagole Gon]

Shit article about brilliant games.

Too bad docs fucked up their priorities and changed nice addition (emotional engagement) into shitty main (/only) feature. KOTOR = the very definition of decline.

Maybe they took a good look at what all those Baldur's Gate mods were about.

Challenging battles, new items... gay drow buttse....
Bro, don't drag modding community into this. Even extremely mod unfriendly games have nude patches.

 

[visions]

I never understood what was so hard about the mage assassin.

He was sorta hard (meaning I had to try this fight more than once) when I was 13. First encounter with mirror image prior to knowing anything about D&D spells (because I didn't rtfm).

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction completely went apeshit for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagement" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some fun dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often (MY WIIIIIIIIIINGS!). And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to those people. I mean, Neverwinter Nights didn't have time to design anything better than one of the shittiest campaigns ever (and yet NWN2 somehow managed to be even worse...uh, good job Obsidian?) but they sure had time to write in plenty of elvish waifu shit (Linu: I'M CLUMSY AND CRY A LOT!, Aribeth: I'M A CRYPTO LIZARD!), and I even recall a lot of praise being given for this. Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim and started headlong down the road to swooping, ass pirates, slutty witches, and gay guido buttfucking. The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got p. shafted.

 

[MMXI]

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction completely went apeshit for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagement" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some fun dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often (MY WIIIIIIIIIINGS!). And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to those people. I mean, Neverwinter Nights didn't have time to design anything better than one of the shittiest campaigns ever (and yet NWN2 somehow managed to be even worse...uh, good job Obsidian?) but they sure had time to write in plenty of elvish waifu shit (Linu: I'M CLUMSY AND CRY A LOT!, Aribeth: I'M A CRYPTO LIZARD!), and I even recall a lot of praise being given for this. Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim and started headlong down the road to swooping, ass pirates, slutty witches, and gay guido buttfucking. The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got p. shafted.

Yeah, and the funny thing is that the story elements of Baldur's Gate (plot dialogues and end of chapter scrolls) makes up a whopping 0.2% of the game! I hate Baldur's Gate fans in general precisely because most of them like the games for the wrong reasons.

 

[Roguey]

I've seen quite a few people praise BG2's story/characters while also mentioning how they utterly hated how it played. These people are from BSN of course.

 

[Infinitron]

It makes you wonder if maybe the only way to avoid being overwhelmed by 'drone'-type fans and maintain your franchise's spirit, is to purposefully design thoroughly unlikable and unrelatable characters.

 

[hoverdog]

Sometimes I wish I had a .txt file with my opinions on games and arguments backing up them that I could copy-paste with minimal effort.
Baldur's Gate being mentioned is one of these moments.

You are back.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I never understood what was so hard about the mage assassin.

Until that point, bum rushing was enough to take care of enemies, so the sudden need to pay attention catches you by surprise. He's more or less the first "real" fight of the game.

 

[hiver]

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction completely went apeshit for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagement" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some fun dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often (MY WIIIIIIIIIINGS!).

No shit? You are saying that characters were cringe worthy a little too often because of one NPC you didnt even need to take with you? Tell me more doctor.

And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to those people.

I dont give a shit.
Also i really doubt a lot of the same people were working on those future games.
Whatever that company got turned into doesnt take away anything from the quality of Baldur Gates.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

Y'all haters can say what you want, but Baldur's Gate was beautiful. It had a stunning art style, memorable locations, secondary quests full of colorful characters that didn't make you feel that much the "chosen one story" (since you ARE the son of Bhaal) save in precise moments where it was handled well (the dream sequence, etc), combat that was always hard and engaging at the high levels, dragons you actually felt PROUD killing, because, fucking fuck, they were tough SOBs (as D&D demands)...

I know a lot of Codexers say "lol its only retrospectiv but de infinity engine gheimz are olredy declain, gheimz in de eities wer much hardcorer lullllz herpderderderrrrrp".

Cut the crap. The Infinity Engine games are, which more and which less, very fine. And for me Baldur's gate 2 is the one that straddles the line of story and combat pretty well (though the combat could've been better).
Sure, there are games that are hurrdurrcorer combatwise, but fuck you. Fallout 2 becomes relatively simpler too as soon as you get the light machinegun. Sure, there are deathclaws, which are pretty tough, and mutants, and aliens, the Navarro base, but they are all manageable with some rethink 'n' load, just like Baldur's gate 2's harder encounters.

They point is, those fucking games (Fallout 2 included, not only BG) made me and my brother lose some serious sleep in the late nineties, like no games of the 00s did afterwards. Because THERE ARE NONE TO LOSE YOUR SLEEP TO - unless you were sold by the timesink par excellence, Oblibians.

 

[Black]

Y'all haters can say what you want, but

Yeah, the "i don't give a fuck about your criticism, leave my game alone! ;_;" response.

 

[hiver]

Y'all haters can say what you want, but

Yeah, the "i don't give a fuck about your criticism, leave my game alone! ;_;" response.

Yeah, the "Yeah, the "i don't give a fuck about your criticism, leave my game alone! ;_;" response." - response.

which can be applied to other side too, in the same trolling, unsubstantiated manner.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I wonder sometimes, what would happen if current Bioware tried to make a game like BG2 - colourful high fantasy with an emphasis on cool looking dungeons and varied party-based combat.

I know they claimed DA was supposed to be a spiritual successor, but it doesn't play or look similar at all, with its faux grimdark aesthetic, hub structure lifted from Kotor, and endless waves of samey darkspawn.

 

[CappenVarra]

It makes you wonder if maybe the only way to avoid being overwhelmed by 'drone'-type fans and maintain your franchise's spirit, is to purposefully design thoroughly unlikable and unrelatable characters.

I believe Bioware already tried that and it didn't work. Yes, I'm talking about Carth Onasi. But then again, there was no 'franchise spirit' involved, so whatever.

The only solution to that 'problem' is to make games which focus on the gameplay and are actual games (i.e. interesting challenges that need to be overcome) instead of instant gratification 'double click the game icon to have imaginary people tell you how awesome you are' bullshit - so that non-prestigious players will simply find them too hard or boring and quit in the first dungeon because 'it's not fun'. And yes, dungeons are mandatory

 

[Clockwork Knight]

No shit? You are saying that characters were cringe worthy a little too often because of one NPC you didnt even need to take with you? Tell me more doctor.

No, he's complaining about characters and using Aerie as an example. What's with you loons taking everything literally?

Also, why are you reading this? You're ignoring me, remember?

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Y'all haters can say what you want, but

Yeah, the "i don't give a fuck about your criticism, leave my game alone! ;_;" response.

Yeah, the "Yeah, the "i don't give a fuck about your criticism, leave my game alone! ;_;" response." - response.

which can be applied to other side too, in the same trolling, unsubstantiated manner.

It can't because I like criticising Fallout.

Oh yeah. "Fallout has more combat options than Baldur's Gate II and is therefore more tactical. I'm not counting spells. And I'm not counting multiple party members. Yes, just a single fighter, but with no once-per-day items equipped.

I don't recall claiming that BG isn't tactical. Also, fighters are still fucking boring while they are fun to play in Fallout. And criticism of fighters in BG1/SoA is valid since they are a class just like Mages and Priests. In Fallout fighters get perks and many skills and a choice of attack type and precise positioning/AP management besides equipment and "magic items".
Mages have "magic items" but also they have actual special attacks in form of spells, so Fighters are clearly made as a half-assed boring class. (On the other hand, Mages have sloppily coded spells where a person with mirror image may be paralysed by ghoul or poisoned where an image is hit. Not to mention mirror image actually protecting from fireballs and other area spells in BG1. It's the most common protective spell FFS).
Thieves with their half-assed implementation of stealth as a nonmagical invisibility are even worse.

Yeah, and no HLAs either."

There are no HLAs in BG1 and BG2:SoA.

Also, fucking one solution linear story.

They point is, those fucking games (Fallout 2 included, not only BG) made me and my brother lose some serious sleep in the late nineties, like no games of the 00s did afterwards. Because THERE ARE NONE TO LOSE YOUR SLEEP TO - unless you were sold by the timesink par excellence, Oblibians.

So, they also promote unhealthy gaming habits? How is it a good thing?

 

[MMXI]

I don't recall claiming that BG isn't tactical. Also, fighters are still fucking boring while they are fun to play in Fallout. And criticism of fighters in BG1/SoA is valid since they are a class just like Mages and Priests. In Fallout fighters get perks and many skills and a choice of attack type and precise positioning/AP management besides equipment and "magic items".
Mages have "magic items" but also they have actual special attacks in form of spells, so Fighters are clearly made as a half-assed boring class. (On the other hand, Mages have sloppily coded spells where a person with mirror image may be paralysed by ghoul or poisoned where an image is hit. Not to mention mirror image actually protecting from fireballs and other area spells in BG1. It's the most common protective spell FFS).
Thieves with their half-assed implementation of stealth as a nonmagical invisibility are even worse.

Who gives a damn if fighters are boring? It's a party-based game. Unless you plan on playing it through with six fighters I don't understand your complaints one bit.

Also, fucking one solution linear story.

Like 99% of the genre pre-Fallout? Do you dislike those games too?

 

[Turjan]

I never understood what was so hard about the mage assassin.

That was the first more difficult fight. It took me a while to figure out that you could interrupt spellcasting by shooting him with bows (when everyone in the party shot, one usually hit). As soon as the guy got one spell out, it was game over. Bows were very powerful in BG1.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

I never understood what was so hard about the mage assassin.

That was the first more difficult fight. It took me a while to figure out that you could interrupt spellcasting by shooting him with bows (when everyone in the party shot, one usually hit). As soon as the guy got one spell out, it was game over. Bows were very powerful in BG1.

Bows being overpowered made those Nashkel mines hell. So many reloads...

As for Black, why don't you goons troll him like calling Arcanum a piece of shit?

 

[Black]

As for Black, why don't you goons troll him like calling Arcanum a piece of shit?

But that won't work, since I don't have some zealous nostalgia-driven feelings towards it.
Ah, whatever, I can always use the "Y'all haters can say what you want, but" card. It seems to be quite popular nowadays. It very much reminds me of how many people view ME1 and DA1 now. Everything after that was crap, but they were so glorious, oh my gosh.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

As for Black, why don't you goons troll him like calling Arcanum a piece of shit?

But that won't work, since I don't have some zealous nostalgia-driven feelings towards it.
Ah, whatever, I can always use the "Y'all haters can say what you want, but" card. It seems to be quite popular nowadays. It very much reminds me of how many people view ME1 and DA1 now. Everything after that was crap, but they were so glorious, oh my gosh.

You remind me of Soggy.

 

[Mozgoëbstvo]

As for Black, why don't you goons troll him like calling Arcanum a piece of shit?

But that won't work, since I don't have some zealous nostalgia-driven feelings towards it.
Ah, whatever, I can always use the "Y'all haters can say what you want, but" card. It seems to be quite popular nowadays. It very much reminds me of how many people view ME1 and DA1 now. Everything after that was crap, but they were so glorious, oh my gosh.

Dear black, what I meant to say in the beginning wasn't "blawhadnafnoudnfbSIDIYBdafsibdsifbidf you're poop".

By my "y'all haters speech" I meant that I see your criticism, and I think it's unnecessarily heavy-handed, and that ultimately your dislike of Baldur's comes from taste rather than from the "golden rpg formula" violation.
And that's fine.

My ultimate point is: dislike all you want, but try pulling the absolute truth baton out of your ass. We'll all be better for it.

As for the nostalgia glasses you accuse me of wearing, I think it's only partly true. I finished Arcanum only relatively recently, after being left disgruntled by many RPGs, and I LOVED it despite its less-than-stellar combat and a lot of builds being decidedly useless in respect to others (I appreciated the vast options, though).
And I put Arcanum right up there, next to my "nostalgia pet" in terms of value and respect. So...

 

[Jasede]

The interesting thing about Baldur's Gate, but especially BG2, is how critical reaction and fan reaction completely went apeshit for the storyline, writing, and other "emotional engagement" while ignoring a lot of the more "gamey" aspects, which is where the game really shined. It's like people played the games, enjoyed the fun interpretation of D&D, crawled around in some fun dungeons, fought some well-crafted encounters, and then when going to express their opinions they gushed praise for plot, setting, and characters that were pretty decent at times but cringe-worthy a little too often (MY WIIIIIIIIIINGS!). And the Bioware head honchos took this to heart, catering to those people. I mean, Neverwinter Nights didn't have time to design anything better than one of the shittiest campaigns ever (and yet NWN2 somehow managed to be even worse...uh, good job Obsidian?) but they sure had time to write in plenty of elvish waifu shit (Linu: I'M CLUMSY AND CRY A LOT!, Aribeth: I'M A CRYPTO LIZARD!), and I even recall a lot of praise being given for this. Then with KOTOR, Bioware fully embraced their Westernized dating sim and started headlong down the road to swooping, ass pirates, slutty witches, and gay guido buttfucking. The "public" got exactly what they clamored for, and everyone else got p. shafted.

Holy fuck dude, you get everything about games. Amazing. Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 were incredibly fun dungeon crawls with really great encounter design and cool, fun spells and combat options for the time while being fast-paced and fresh.

This guy, he just breathes video games.