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Endgame complaints

Sovy Kurosei

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
1,535
Human Shield said:
What if grind didn't exist? What if you had to do 0 things over again?

Permanent death doesn't add anything to the gameplay. Infact it detracts from it because I can just grab an alt, run around and be a total prick and "ninja looter" and there is very little to stop me besides going into the realm of metagaming. I think DU (or was it S_P?) pointed that out in one of Role-Player's roundtable talks about RPing in MMORPGs. Infact from your implementation of permanent death with 0 grind there would be very little consequence to my actions, unless, of course, we use metagaming to make consequences of my action carry over to my next character.

Actually, I like how EVE Online does it from what I have been reading. If you die you lose your ship and modules but you don't lose the progress that your character has made with his skills provided you got the appropriate back up of your character.
 

Human Shield

Augur
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Messages
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Permanent death doesn't add anything to the gameplay. Infact it detracts from it because I can just grab an alt, run around and be a total prick and "ninja looter" and there is very little to stop me besides going into the realm of metagaming.

Not if you lock out a fraction for a while.

I think DU (or was it S_P?) pointed that out in one of Role-Player's roundtable talks about RPing in MMORPGs. Infact from your implementation of permanent death with 0 grind there would be very little consequence to my actions, unless, of course, we use metagaming to make consequences of my action carry over to my next character.

MMORPGs have zero consequences now. I don't know why people consider leveling up to be "consequences".

Why not have actions effect the world and other players?

If monsters had permenent death and items had permenent death (scarce items) then plenty of actions would effect things.... permenently.
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
Section8 said:
Or shit, maybe you could make mining, trade routes, gainful activites give xp in their relevant fields?

You could do that, but then you're headed into the same territory as most MMOGs, where the only way to achieve anything significant is to be online more often than is healthy. If I'm only a casual player, then I'm never going to have the skills "most decent pvp corps require".
And eve doesnt require you to be online significant amount of time to get ahead? You're being pedantic.

The eve skill system is shit, it's designed from the ground up to keep people paying money to get their skills up.

Guess what? Nearly every other MMOG is designed from the ground up to require time and money to get their skills up. I can understand the criticism, but I'm not paying to have some virtual abilities slowly increase, I'm paying for the times I actively enjoy interacting within the universe. The fact that my character can improve when I'm not online is a plus.
Highlighted relevant part, as that's exactly what you're doing.
In WoW, I could take it slow, explore every area completely, enjoy and do every quest, or I could powerlevel through it in 5 days playtime and cap.

In EvE, you dont have the option to cap quickly, while still having to do the same boring stuff as other mmog's.

For example, most decent pvp corps require you to have 6 months worth of skills before you can join.

That's completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that I can find ways to enjoy the game with my limited skill set, and I'm also quite happy with the corp I've joined. If I'm enjoying myself now, and things do indeed get better with time as most people tell me) then it seems like money well spent to me.
It's completely irrelevant to you, was I somehow magically meant to know your situation, what you liked etc? No? I was talking in general you peon.

btw, who are the people you asked if the game gets better with time? Current eve players?
That's a nice unbiased group.
 

crufty

Arcane
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Human Shield said:
What if grind didn't exist? What if you had to do 0 things over again?

That would be awesome. Like progress quest. You create your character, it advances at an incredibly fast rate w/no input. Lets say you create your character on Monday, on Wed, without playing, it's at level 40. Log in due your uber stuff. You die. Had fun, oh well. Create a new character, repeat. Would it get boring? Maybe. But then, a lot of people played the same 30 quake levels for a LONG time.

I'm sure there are problems with this strategy, but it is more appealing to me than slaving away at something that doesn't pay the rent.
 

DarkSign

Erudite
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Jul 24, 2004
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Shepardizing caselaw with the F5 button.
How about you login and tweak your character. Everyone starts out at a decent enough skill to be competitive, but with more time you go from decent/avg to expert with a few accompanying skills? Skills advance with usage, not with XP grinding, and can be changed by a change in their use. Use a pistol - get better at pistol. Use a rifle - get better at rifle, but you have a total number of % points max. (Think UO but not starting at zero or having levels)

This way everyone starts competitive, but longer play is rewarded. Also, you level while you do what you want...which is experience the content. Character stat levelling should never be confused with content.
 

Section8

Cipher
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From Socialotron:

Due to new censorship laws by the Bush Administration we have decided to paint over all genital areas of our characters on this website. Although the new laws don't include cartoon characters, it is better to be safe than sorry in these days. We hope our voluntary act helps to protect freedom in the world.

"We're censoring ourselves, because we know fascism will get to us eventually. Hooray for freedom!"

Anyway...

And eve doesnt require you to be online significant amount of time to get ahead? You're being pedantic.

Getting ahead of what? The fact of the matter is, my character is improving while I'm online. I can step that up, and take part in a number of fairly passive activities to build up my ISK, keeping Eve in the background and doing other things. Or, I can go all out, and do something enjoyable and engaging, the degree of which so far has been primarily determined by what my skill set permits, and even though there is a certain ISK requirement, it's fairly minimal.

I'm definitely not saying the system is perfect, or even the best thing out there, but from my experience so far, it's a bloody good way of minimising the "grind".

Highlighted relevant part, as that's exactly what you're doing.

Technically yes, but you're completely ignoring reasons and motivation. While that is indeed part of the entire game package that my monthly payment permits me to play, the reason I'm paying is for the gameplay and social elements. The skill system obviously contributes to part of it, but it's not like I'm paying someone for the right to play Progress Quest.

In WoW, I could take it slow, explore every area completely, enjoy and do every quest, or I could powerlevel through it in 5 days playtime and cap.

Good for you. What's the motivation for powerlevelling and capping? Why not enjoy "taking it slow", and experiencing more of what the game has to offer?

In EvE, you dont have the option to cap quickly, while still having to do the same boring stuff as other mmog's.

Well hey, why not play something like Counterstrike where you can get into the PvP straight away? If nothing else you've saved yourself 5 days of playtime.

You're completely disregarding the fact that some players are able to enjoy the "same boring stuff", or you're not looking hard enough for interesting things to do.

It's completely irrelevant to you, was I somehow magically meant to know your situation, what you liked etc? No? I was talking in general you peon.

Okay, so I shouldn't have such a limited personal pronoun as "I". Here it is again.

That's completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that players can find ways to enjoy the game with their limited skill set, and are capable of being quite happy with the corps they join. If they enjoy themselves now, and things do indeed get better with time (as most people from their limited sampling of current Eve players tell them) then why shouldn't that be money well spent to them?

Biased or not, their opinion on whether or not the game improves over time is 100% more informed than someone who hasn't played the game for a considerable length of time. I could search out past players, a task that's much more difficult, given that I can't just log on to a server populated by thousands of ex-players.

Even if I could find a decent sample group, what stops them from being just as biased or moreso than current players?
 

Avé

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
468
Section8 said:
Getting ahead of what? The fact of the matter is, my character is improving while I'm online. I can step that up, and take part in a number of fairly passive activities to build up my ISK, keeping Eve in the background and doing other things. Or, I can go all out, and do something enjoyable and engaging, the degree of which so far has been primarily determined by what my skill set permits, and even though there is a certain ISK requirement, it's fairly minimal.
Yes, the isk requirement is minimal because you're still a new player, I suppose if I was lvl5 in WoW I wouldnt need 5000 gold, either.

I'm definitely not saying the system is perfect, or even the best thing out there, but from my experience so far, it's a bloody good way of minimising the "grind".
People actually like levelling at times, shock horror.
It's certainly a bit more interactive than Eve's system.

Technically yes, but you're completely ignoring reasons and motivation. While that is indeed part of the entire game package that my monthly payment permits me to play, the reason I'm paying is for the gameplay and social elements. The skill system obviously contributes to part of it, but it's not like I'm paying someone for the right to play Progress Quest.
And that's different from other MMOG's how?

Good for you. What's the motivation for powerlevelling and capping? Why not enjoy "taking it slow", and experiencing more of what the game has to offer?
Maybe I wanted to try a different character? Maybe I got bored of a certain area, or was looking forward to doing something that required higher skills?
In eve, I just have to wait months for the skills to train.(and co-incidentally, keep paying)

Well hey, why not play something like Counterstrike where you can get into the PvP straight away? If nothing else you've saved yourself 5 days of playtime.
That's an extremely retarded argument.



You're completely disregarding the fact that some players are able to enjoy the "same boring stuff", or you're not looking hard enough for interesting things to do.
Ok, tell me what I should do:

I mined extensively in 2003 to get my first billion isk as well as a bs BPO within 3 months of retail - mining is no different now than it was then, except with a few new modules and ships.

PVP'ed as part of MASS in Stain Alliance, fought pirates in Fountain and Curse(before either had alliances), and found pvp un-immersive and not very enjoyable.

PVM'ed in 2003 in Curse/JK-Fix(Querious now), pvm'ed Fountain, Stain and Period Basis in 2004.

Got 10 corps to 9+ standing doing lvl3 agent missions in 2004, gotten 3 agents to 8+ standing doing lvl4 missions this year.

Done 4/5/6 / 10 complexes getting ship BPC's

Bought a Freighter

Researched and manufactured/traded.


I did all these things in around 6 or 7 months playtime, tell me what should I do now that's so different?

(I restarted as a new char this year, 5mil SP and counting).

Okay, so I shouldn't have such a limited personal pronoun as "I". Here it is again.

That's completely irrelevant in the face of the fact that players can find ways to enjoy the game with their limited skill set, and are capable of being quite happy with the corps they join. If they enjoy themselves now, and things do indeed get better with time (as most people from their limited sampling of current Eve players tell them) then why shouldn't that be money well spent to them?
Tell me, how many players think like that, and how many think the opposite - exactly?

Biased or not, their opinion on whether or not the game improves over time is 100% more informed than someone who hasn't played the game for a considerable length of time. I could search out past players, a task that's much more difficult, given that I can't just log on to a server populated by thousands of ex-players.

Even if I could find a decent sample group, what stops them from being just as biased or moreso than current players?
Well that's your ignorance, in taking an obviously biased opinion and treating and speaking about it, as if it's fact.
 

Section8

Cipher
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Yes, the isk requirement is minimal because you're still a new player, I suppose if I was lvl5 in WoW I wouldnt need 5000 gold, either.

Yes, but are there ways you can passively attain that gold in WoW? There's obviously still a time requirement for both, but in Eve, I can quite happily mine and run trade routes in a background window while I do more interesting things. Sure beats the hell out of "farming".

People actually like levelling at times, shock horror.
It's certainly a bit more interactive than Eve's system.

I won't deny I get a kick out of seeing my characters level up in most games, otherwise I wouldn't have Fate and Diablo installed on my machine.But also, the non-interactive nature of Eve's character progression suits me personally, as someone looking for a casual MMOG experience to scratch my multiplayer RP itch, even if it doesn't come close to the P&P sesssions I sorely miss.

And that's different from other MMOG's how?

It's more accomodating to the player who doesn't want to dedicate a large portion of their time toward a virtual world, but still wants to participate in the "high end" game activities.

Maybe I wanted to try a different character? Maybe I got bored of a certain area, or was looking forward to doing something that required higher skills?
In eve, I just have to wait months for the skills to train.(and co-incidentally, keep paying)

I definitely agree that it's limiting if you want to play a range of characters, and maybe that will come back to bite me down the track. As far as looking forward to higher skills, we're splitting hairs based on personal preference. There's no definitive right or wrong when it comes to timed advancedment vs earned advancement, but in my situation, I'm favouring advancement over time, and I think it's a welcome alternative to the majority of MMOGs.

That's an extremely retarded argument.

It was made on the basis of arguments implied by your previous posts. The example in your first post suggests that getting into a "decent PvP corp" was a worthwhile thing to do, while the six months it takes to accrue the required skills was "still having to do the same boring stuff as other mmog's" to quote a later posting.

Obviously, since you find Eve's PvP to be "un-immersive and not very enjoyable", it's a misinterpretation on my part, but still a perfectly valid argument. Tell me, what part of Eve do you find enjoyable? Why do you continue to play, let alone make a new start a fresh character? And what are the skill requirements of the activities you enjoy? Since PvP isn't your bag, you obviously won't be hanging out for 6 months to get yourself into a decent PvP corp, so why the objections to the fixed rate of progression?

Tell me, how many players think like that, and how many think the opposite - exactly?

I can't tell you how many think the opposite, but I'd say it's pretty safe to assume that that everyone with a current subscription thinks along those lines, otherwise, why would they continue to p(l)ay every month?

Well that's your ignorance, in taking an obviously biased opinion and treating and speaking about it, as if it's fact.

First of all, where is the obvious bias? An obvious bias would be an employee of CCP telling me how great the game is. Another player has very little vested interest in whether I play the game or not. The response of a current player is predictable, but not inherently biased.

Secondly, at no point did I state it as fact. I stated it as hearsay that I'm of the inclination to believe, based on my own experience.

And really, I'm very curious as to where your objections take root. You express a great deal of negativity toward Eve, and strenuously object to paying money to keep your skills raising, yet you continue to play it after 2+ years.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
28,371
Eve's system sounds interesting. Definately seems to be more rewarding for long-term players but if that's true, does seem to have drawbacks for beginners.

Human Shield said:
Drakron said:
You are wrong, permanent death does not exist because of time.

It takes time to create a character and its easy to diem if every time we got killed we had to create a character again and do everything all over ... that called grind.

What if grind didn't exist? What if you had to do 0 things over again?
Then it wouldn't be an "RPG". It'd be Quake with Elves. Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you.
 

LlamaGod

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Oct 21, 2004
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Yes
"Grinds" are okay as long as they arnt fucking retarded.

But yeah, I think DAoC is the top MMORPG, which is why I play it. It's not #1 most popular now-a-days, but its got the best gameplay and they keep adding good stuff to the game.

It's endgame is great, except on the normal servers, I think. But Mythic has realized this.

Whats wrong with the end game there is the Trials of Atlantis expansion, it takes way too much time and people to get anything done and you need the aritfacts to stand a chance in RvR.

An artifact encounter goes something like this:

Get 30+ people to kill a single monster

Hope the monster is up

If he is up, you kill him. He may or may not drop the artifact.

If he drops it, you got 30+ people who all want it.

If you dont get the artifact, you'll have to wait for the monster to spawn and they can have respawns that take 12+ hours depending on the monster. Have fun keeping those 30+ people together!

If you should some-how get the artifact you must do this before you can even use it fully:

Find 3 scrolls for the artifact off even-con monsters for the first one, slightly strong monsters for the 2nd and very strong monsters for the 3. I spent 3 days killing hard monsters for a 3/3 and never ever got it.

You can buy scrolls off player merchants, but ususally the hard 3/3s cost fuckloads of money. Artifacts have made craploads of inflation too.

After finally getting the 3 scrolls, you can activate the item. Once you do you must level the item 10 levels to get all of its abilities. This takes quite awhile.

And you gotta do that for multiple items to 'fill your character out', because when you get to RvR everyone and their dog is gonna be decked out in the shit. This also makes battles last like 2 seconds, it's retarded.

There is also Master Levels, which take 50-100 people depending on the steps. They take many many hours to do and to even finish a level, you still have to fill up a ML XP bar.


Mythic realized that shit sucks and they've made new servers which do not have Trials of Atlantis on them and they even restricted buffbots on them.

Their next expansion sounds like more of a 'TOA: How It Should of Been', to provide end-game content without it being fucking retarded. Instead of artifacts, there are Champion Weapons, which dont need scrolls or leveling, you get them by either doing a series of quests or just killing people in RvR.

Then Champion Levels which are like Master Levels, but instead of 10 of them there are only 5 and they only need a group at maximum to do (sometimes even less). The abilities are low-powered too, just handy things like a light healing spell.

So yeah, atleast on Classic servers I think, DAoC kicks everyone's ass in end game content. There is alot of fun shit to do in RvR alone and you can become top dog and everything.
 

Human Shield

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DarkUnderlord said:
Then it wouldn't be an "RPG". It'd be Quake with Elves. Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you.

Fallout doesn't have grind. You have lasting, meaningful choices to make.

If anything current MMORPGs are a quake mod where your frag score increases your power, you just keep running around and killing things.
 

Section8

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Trials of Atlantis is purely a product of marketing. "If you don't buy this, you're no longer competitive." And since it was such a bad idea game-wise, they now have "Classic" DAOC servers that do away with it, since it was pure munchkinism, and utterly ruined most of the game dynamics, from PvP, to groups, to class specific abilities, right down to the very economy of the game.

I find it pretty objectionable as a consumer to be subjected to that sort of ploy, but it was probably the fact that everyone deserted the RP servers for the Classic servers that killed it for me.
 

crufty

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Human Shield said:
If anything current MMORPGs are a quake mod where your frag score increases your power, you just keep running around and killing things.

And the grind. There is no grind in quake.

I personally hate pointless grind, espicially of the Final Fantasy variety. Dungeon Crawl/Nethack style grind is a little different, because technically you don't have to.
 

LlamaGod

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Yes
Section8 said:
Trials of Atlantis is purely a product of marketing. "If you don't buy this, you're no longer competitive." And since it was such a bad idea game-wise, they now have "Classic" DAOC servers that do away with it, since it was pure munchkinism, and utterly ruined most of the game dynamics, from PvP, to groups, to class specific abilities, right down to the very economy of the game.

I find it pretty objectionable as a consumer to be subjected to that sort of ploy, but it was probably the fact that everyone deserted the RP servers for the Classic servers that killed it for me.

It's more like they realized how retardedly strong the shit was and how annoying it was, since the next expansion seems to be tailored to their "new style", like Catacombs was also.

I left my old server for good. Went to Albion/Gareth. I cant stand Trials of Atlantis.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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... and Elves. I think you missed the Elves.

As I said before though, MMORPGs revolve around conflict (IE: World War II). Conflict that doesn't get resolved just isn't fun (IE: If World War II never finished). In the end, someone has to "win" and the game starts over again for round 2 (IE: World War III or in the case of an MMORPG, World War II all over again).
 

freelance

Novice
Joined
Dec 11, 2004
Messages
22
DarkSign said:
Actually I totally disagree.

In EQ1 you can still "level" even after you have reached the top level - by gaining "alternate ability points." These are additional skills that increase or refine your playstyle.

What people usually mean by endgame is the stuff that you can only do when youre in the top 5-10 levels of a game. Again, in EQ1 these were the high level mobs in various zones/planes that you really need to be 55+ to accomplish.

There was nothing grander than being close to top level, joining 150+ people and trapsing off into a really dangerous zone that you'd never seen before. One that sticks out in my mind is The Deep...a dark cavern with an invisible bridge, tons of baddies before you get to the main mob...The Thoughtoverfiend.

It took/takes strategy to beat this bad boy. The problem is its a repetitive strategy of clerics spamming heals on the main tank and the tank hitting auto-attack. Seriously, the main damage dealer in the whole affair could walk away for HOURS because while it could get dangerous, the middle meat of the event was super-boring.

The complaint Ive oft heard was that "there shouldnt be anything at higher levels that you cant do when you're lower level." Basically the "its not fair" argument. While I can sympathize with it, I can also see the other side....these dungeon crawls take expert timing and tactics in some places...and such things come from learning your character over the length of time it takes to get to lvl 65-70.

Thats one of the reasons people HATE ebayed characters...you might get me killed if you're a wizard and dont know when to EVAC us out...or a shaman who doesnt even know when to Cannibalize.

That being said...I dont like level systems at all. I prefer a noob being able to get into the game and compete from day one. Skill should come from the human user not the digital character in my estimation.

For me, the endgame should be the conclusion of a story-driven plot arc that your character and guild have brought about. You've driven the orcs out of a zone and kept them there? Are they remassing to overtake your lands in a battle for ultimate supremacy? Good. Thats what I want.

I suppose this is an argument for servers with end/win scenarios...and slightly an argument for permadeath. Endgame should come from the consequences of your character's actions...not because you've reached the end of all there is to do.

You totally summed up what makes EQ1 feel better in the end game stage than any of the other games out there. WoW is nice but that's basically a wait for the next MC, BWL or Onyxia instance to get ready so you can smash everything inside in a few hours for a chance of some epixxx and then wait another week.
AA makes EQ1 great in that respect as your character becomes stronger all the time. Perhaps a lesson for future MMOs to learn from.
 

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