DX:IW VS HR?

[Heresiarch]

The first thing I notice when I play HR for 10 MIN was "wtf ANOTHER lab-being-raided beginning?", and then I found "hey, this kind of beginning seems similar", then I remembered it's exactly the same as IW. *facepalm*

Anyway, I don't need another discussion about HR vs DX1 because as I'm already replaying it right now for the X time, I know what its strength is and also its weaknesses. But what about HR VS IW? I never finished IW because the areas are just so tiny, the character models of its engine seems really weird (they all look cartoonish due to having bigger heads), and the protagonist in IW just felt too emo and far less cool than JC.

So is HR better than IW? If yes, I'll go play it as soon as I finished the replay of DX1, if not I'll go to start Twitcher 2 chapter 2 (Ioverth path)...

 

[spectre]

Do like the rest of us, assume IW never happened and go for HR. It's actually worth a play.

 

[Dark Matter]

Don't judge HR based on the shitty intro section. It gets much better.

 

[MetalCraze]

There is only one Deus Ex game.

 

[Satan]

Deus Ex - 8/10
IW - 2/10
HR - 7/10

HR suffers somewhat from next-gen, but it's not that far away from original DE (although lacks great atmosphere), the only major thing it does wrong is that atmosphere and some augmentations are too advanced.

As for IW... I won't say anything about this turd, it's not worth it.

 

[Angthoron]

HR is the best thing that could happen to the Deus Ex franchise in this day and age. It's not franchise rape, reboot or reimagining. It's what a bunch of Deus Ex enthusiasts would make if they were all professional and had a seven/eight-digit budget.

The "intro" is weak, I have no idea why good games these days insist on having bland intro phases, maybe it's a counter-Skyway measure. The game really only begins after the RoboCop-like intro is over and you get the augs and the hostage situation.

So yeah, HR is all sorts of better than IW.

 

[MetalCraze]

It's what a bunch of Deus Ex enthusiasts would make if they were all professional and had a seven/eight-digit budget.

You mean a bunch of Deus Ex enthusiasts would make it completely linear with tight corridors, dumb AI that guards walls, one-button-takedowns, minigames instead of skills, quest compass, enemy radar and item highlights?

 

[SoupNazi]

It's better than the original Deus Ex.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh hey look, it's skyway.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

There is only one Deus Ex game.

Ukraine cannot into math

 

[sea]

Invisible War has a few redeeming qualities, but not many. Some of the augmentations like bot domination are well executed, and the concepts for the environments (Cairo, Trier, Antarctica) are cool. Some of the conspiracy stuff later into the game also gets into genuine Deus Ex territory, and the Omar are a genuinely interesting addition to the Deus Ex canon (though kind of poorly executed). If it had one strength, it's that it actually did a surprisingly good job with the "all endings happened" concept and creating a world that felt like a continuation of the original game's outcome, with a very similar style and spirit to it.

The problem is that the tiny levels mean there's almost no real choice and consequence in playstyle (same issue Human Revolution has, but more so in Invisible War), and the pacing of the story is so awful (especially the intro) that it becomes extremely difficult to invest yourself into the game. The characters are also all extremely flat, and they tend to have some pretty poor voice acting overall. If you play it all the way to the end, it does get better, but I've only ever managed to finish it once because the opening few hours are so amazingly dull. Plus, the engine is a terrible, buggy mess with some of the worst-feeling "shooting" I've ever been exposed to - it makes the original game look like Quake 3.

If it had more time in the oven and had been developed on a better game engine, I think Invisible War would have been genuinely worth playing, even if it wasn't as good as the first one. As it stands though, it's kind of like a train wreck: fun to look at to see what a disaster it is, but not to actually be a part of. Watch a let's play, it will save you the sheer tedium of all those fucking 30+ second load screens every 2 minutes.

 

[Angthoron]

It's what a bunch of Deus Ex enthusiasts would make if they were all professional and had a seven/eight-digit budget.

You mean a bunch of Deus Ex enthusiasts would make it completely linear with tight corridors, dumb AI that guards walls, one-button-takedowns, minigames instead of skills, quest compass, enemy radar and item highlights?

Skyway, did you actually play both games? If so, please do give me some examples of huge open spaces in Deus Ex, because frankly I fail to recall any. UNATCO island doesn't count as it's just a set of well-made corridors pretending to be open spaces - Detroit hub can easily be its equal, if not superior.

Was the AI in Deus Ex good? No, it was not. Compared to Unreal (same engine, hey), it was totally fucking braindead, guarding walls and not reacting adequately to the player half the time.

As for linearity, which part of it is linear, being able to crawl through the ducts, hack a security bot to fuck guards up, take them all down from stealth, engage them with guns (lethal or non-lethal), sneak behind natural cover or turn on invisibility aug, all to tackle the same hallway? Which part is linear here, and is this enormously different from Deus Ex? Or maybe leaving characters alive to later have pleasant (or not) surprises? Or having multiple quest solutions?

Minigame is governed by skill, by the way, if you've not upgraded your skills you won't even GET to play the mini-game, and even if you can, there's no guarantee that you'll win without upgrading your abilities in it. And yeah, OMG, can't autohack anymore, unless you buy autohack devices, how awful, can't use AWESOME button on locks and terminals anymore.

Item highlight - I have it off, nothing highlights for me, pretty sure I missed a cartload of breakable walls. One-button takedowns - only useful if you've actually specialized in them, and it drains energy so you can't spam it anyway. Quest compass? Yeah, it'll help you in Hengsha a lot. Enemy radar? Don't have to upgrade it. I didn't. There are much more useful upgrades to pick from.

Problem?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Deus Ex - 10/10
IW - didn't happen
HR - 9/10

Fixed. I still insist that the contest for the best game of all time is going to head-to-head between Deus Ex and Jagged Alliance 2. While I always talk about how some aspects of DX are surpassed by various games, it's still that DX is an amazing whole.

 

[SoupNazi]

You're a bro, Vaarna.

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[Gord]

Invisible War has a few redeeming qualities, but not many.

Yes. Augs, e.g. where much better balanced.
Also, the claustrophobic levels aside (shitty consoles), I felt the engine was a massive step up at least in terms of graphics.
It definitely takes its time, but the story will eventually touch some philosophical issues I found not entirely devoid of interest. Sadly all the endings somehow leave a bitter taste.

My biggest gripes are the sci-fi setting that most of the time just felt like, well, generic sci-fi and the approach they took to the different factions. At first it really looks as if you have to decide between them, but pretty soon you find that you sadly can help both of them most of the time without so much as a few upset remarks.
One exception probably being the coffee wars, although that comes with it's own twist...
Cutting most of the personal emails that provided some flavor in the original and removing the skill syste, didn't help either.

 

[MetalCraze]

Skyway, did you actually play both games? If so, please do give me some examples of huge open spaces in Deus Ex, because frankly I fail to recall any. UNATCO island doesn't count as it's just a set of well-made corridors pretending to be open spaces - Detroit hub can easily be its equal, if not superior.

You answered your own question.
DX is a set of well-made corridors. Which also interconnect providing for alternative walkthroughs.

DXHR is just a tight corridor where you can go 2m to the left or to the right aka next-gen "alternative passage"

Was the AI in Deus Ex good? No, it was not. Compared to Unreal (same engine, hey), it was totally fucking braindead, guarding walls and not reacting adequately to the player half the time.

I didn't know we were comparing DX and Unreal.

As for DX and DXHR - in DX AI didn't stand in one place, facing away from the player most of the time.

"There is only one entrance into this corridor - let's guard the opposite way from where player is never able to come" - DXHR AI design.

As for linearity, which part of it is linear, being able to crawl through the ducts, hack a security bot to fuck guards up, take them all down from stealth, engage them with guns (lethal or non-lethal), sneak behind natural cover or turn on invisibility aug, all to tackle the same hallway? Which part is linear here, and is this enormously different from Deus Ex?

All of it is linear because you still pass through the exactly same hallway. You just say it like lethal or non-lethal takedowns are a different thing hoping it will make your argument valid or something. And the duct is always paralel to the damn corridor.

"Oh jeez I can make a robot kill guards or kill them myself - nonlinearity lARP LARP LARP" - how about avoiding guards altogether by flanking through the neighboring building? Oh wait you can't.

It's 2011 and you still can't do that in shitty next-gen games, but you can have more freedom of movement even in Doom from '93

natural cover

Yes boxes in the middle of all corridors put there just so player can hide behind them while using 3rd person cheat are very natural.

Minigame is governed by skill, by the way, if you've not upgraded your skills you won't even GET to play the mini-game, and even if you can, there's no guarantee that you'll win without upgrading your abilities in it.

What if I don't want to play fucking retarded minigames?

You always can attempt to do them and you never can skip all of them - meaning "skills" are utterly useless.

Item highlight - I have it off

Yes it's an only thing you can turn off.

One-button takedowns - only useful if you've actually specialized in them, and it drains energy so you can't spam it anyway.

Gods be praised, you can't spam one button kills! Motherfucking INCLINE right there.

 

[Angthoron]

Skyway, please answer my first question.

Did you play both games? Because I don't see how I answered my question for me. I'm guessing it's "no" though. Maybe even for both.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I think the correct question is that did Skyway even play the original Deus Ex. Because a lot of his statements point to not having done that.

 

[Marsal]

Skyway, please answer my first question.

Did you play both games? Because I don't see how I answered my question for me. I'm guessing it's "no" though. Maybe even for both.

I think the correct question is that did Skyway even play the original Deus Ex. Because a lot of his statements point to not having done that.

I think I can answer these for Mr. Skyway: "Seven times. Seven times each, bitches!"

 

[Klaz]

Semi off-topic question: How does HR compare with Alpha Protocol?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It's better; the stealth gameplay is more polished, there's extra stuff for weaponry, and the level design is vastly better. The art design and world design is also better.

The C&C, dialogue outcomes (like DX1, HR is also a firm believer in win/lose outcomes only) and NPC mechanics in AP are still immensily superior though.

 

[Drakron]

like DX1, HR is also a firm believer in win/lose outcomes only.

There is a big difference, HR "verbal matches" have multi paths were the NPC can go with diferent responses that show his general attitude.

Of course there is a win/lose but there are many wins and you actually have to pat attention to what the NPC is saying to understand how should you reply.

DX1 was standard dialogue tree as for AP ... fuck it, it was Mass Effect and you fucking know it, the only thing it had was the influence system but even that was BioWarian.

 

[Gord]

DX1 was standard dialogue tree as for AP ... fuck it, it was Mass Effect and you fucking know it, the only thing it had was the influence system but even that was BioWarian.

Even if it was "Biowarian", it was Mass Effect on Steroids and much more complex. Also it worked. Which can not be said about some other things of AP, sadly...

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The influence system played a lot into the dialogues you would have in the future and effectiveness of certain choices, you could also use acquired information (which you necessarily didn't find) on several occasions (most notably with Marburg and Parker) and you actually stood to gain from seriously pissing someone off as well (ie, Marburg and Albatross). Similarly in AP, you had to pay attention to what the NPC was saying, but you ALSO had to have read their files, and everyone who played the game knows how much Marburg's full file can alter the endgame.

It also bears mention that so far only half the social battles I've had in HR have multiple paths to victory. Generally it follows a "two strikes and you're out" system where you have to achieve a perfect match on all but one occasions for the "win" to happen. Sanders generally had a choice between Empathize and Reason, but Haas and Tong were one-solution guys. It also bears mention that not picking Social Enhancer would apparently result in "limited win" most of the time, meaning Social Enhancer is pretty much a guaranteed early pick.

 

[Serious_Business]

I haven't played HR and don't play to but I want to remind everyone that Vaarna_Aarne is a defender of the NWN 2 OC. Sorry man, you reap what you sow