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Dungeon Keeper 1 - Always this hard?

taxalot

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Had an itch that something was off after a few hours of KeeperFX and yeah, I'm getting my ass kicked at Map08 (Tickle) which seems to be a fairly common problem. I remember going way farther in the DOS original. KeeperFX is much much harder (but also better so it's fine...)
 

oldbonebrown

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I'm on Buffy Oak (keeperFX)
Buffy_Oak_map_Dungeon_Keeper.gif

Incredibly stuck, not sure what to even try. The only angle of attack I see is doing something with tunneling down the left side as the AI is pretty slow to open up the gold there.
Perhaps there is some way to whittle down the enemy that I'm not realizing, but all straight forward battles are impossible. I haven't tried mass producing traps to see if I can lead their army into it a death room, that was how I got the final AI on Elf's Dance.
 

kangaxx

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Possess a fly and get the four free dragons right at the beginning in the lava and train them up. Rush the special spells hidden in the middle behind gold seams. I never had any trouble with that level.
 

Tweed

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No, the game isn't hard at all. Not even on KeeperFX, you guys just need to git gud.
what should my strat be then, gamer?

Start by transferring in your horned reaper from the last map. You do have a level 10 horned reaper, don't you? And if not that then something else because Elf's Dance has a transfer creature secret on it and if you didn't move something like a level 10 vampire or reaper across, that reflects badly on you. And yeah there's several dragons up for grabs, you want them. You also get sole access to the scavenger room and hellhounds which can run across lava which is both a good and bad thing. Expect bridges to ping pong back and forth with the enemy keepers, but you can probably swoop in and knock out Green quickly with a transferred creature. In the meantime dig out the nearby gold and get those specials. Expect to lose imps, they surrounded by traps. Up to you if you want to burn the level up right away or wait until the last moment. The minute you attack their imps shit will hit the fan.

If you moved a vampire then you can also get your research done a hell of a lot faster. You can build lairs next to lava which will let dragons gain xp as they sleep, mostly pointless though since it goes slowly. If you think this is hard you're gonna hate Blaise End.
 

oldbonebrown

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How do I reach this tile where the transfer creature box is on elf's dance? I checked the dungeon keeper wiki, and it's not normally blocked off by rock so I assume it's a keeperfx edit
co5TG0N.png

Transferring a creature would make a big difference.
 
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Poseidon00

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No, the game isn't hard at all. Not even on KeeperFX, you guys just need to git gud.
what should my strat be then, gamer?

I barely remember the level you are talking about so some general advice to beat just about any map:

- remember that your imps can fortify walls to make them impenetrable to enemy tunneling. use this to your advantage and either rush for the gold reserves you need and shore up your defenses to cut them off and prevent an attack, or build your base quickly with no gaps and fortify yourself until you are trained enough to attack. if you prefer an aggressive strategy, it often pays to go after gold reserves as reasonably close to the enemy as possible, while keeping the closest reserves safe, to starve them of resources in the late game, assuming it's a no-gem map.

- don't underestimate the ability of traps to decimate an enemy army without any effort on your part. You can bait patrolling enemies into them fairly quickly with imps or creatures that tend to run away. Bile demons work almost as fast as trolls and are far better, orcs are also good

- via a combination of traps and fortification, you can force enemy armies into a gauntlet of damaging traps, while also slowing them down with doors. let them be their own worst enemy.

- you can control the type of creatures you summon by what kind of rooms you have. maybe wait just a bit on that library or guard room if you want to get a large amount of bile demons, spiders, mistresses, dragons etc. first

- you can send one creature on a suicide mission via possession and, if you are good, can take out at least a few enemies via hit and run or whatever suits that character the best

- heal during battle, but don't spam it needlessly. judicious healing wins battles

- there are often secret items on maps that give you a free enemy creature, a free level, or other important items. it pays to explore

- if you keep the jail creatures option on, and you keep the creatures in your jail cell alive (and the jail is big enough), you can prevent an enemy lord from summoning any more creatures
 

Baron Tahn

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Yeh was just thinking the same. What is KeeperFX like? Gonna have a look at it now but would value opinions.
 

Poseidon00

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Yeh was just thinking the same. What is KeeperFX like? Gonna have a look at it now but would value opinions.

I consider it a must-use because it fixes things that definitely should be working, like some of the higher level Wizard and Dragon spells
 

Tweed

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How do I reach this tile where the transfer creature box is on elf's dance? I checked the dungeon keeper wiki, and it's not normally blocked off by rock so I assume it's a keeperfx edit
co5TG0N.png

Transferring a creature would make a big difference.
Secrets on top of liquids need bridges underneath them to make them yours. Bridge it, dump an imp on top of it to take it back, or just use it. The reason you see impenetrable rock is because of fog of war.


Yeh was just thinking the same. What is KeeperFX like? Gonna have a look at it now but would value opinions.

It's THE way to play, fixes bugs, improves performance, and has loads of additional 3rd party content if you want to keep on keeping. Too bad all the attempts at doing the same for DK2 ended in failure.

Most early dungeons can be cheesed by possessing a level 10 reaper and bee-lining for the enemy heart, eventually though you'll start facing heroes or dungeons that are just too high level and numerous for that kind of bullshit.
 

oldbonebrown

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How do I reach this tile where the transfer creature box is on elf's dance? I checked the dungeon keeper wiki, and it's not normally blocked off by rock so I assume it's a keeperfx edit
co5TG0N.png

Transferring a creature would make a big difference.
Secrets on top of liquids need bridges underneath them to make them yours. Bridge it, dump an imp on top of it to take it back, or just use it. The reason you see impenetrable rock is because of fog of war.
I don't get it. If you look closely you can see that I have taken over the ground right up to the rock, there is no passing through there, and using the eye spell there is no liquid in the dark spot.
I ended up beating the level without a creature transfer, a huge slog. The two levels after it have been much easier, but now I'm at the same situation on Woodly Rhyme
BOhcbBk.png


In the level before that, Sleepiburgh, I could not get the transfer creature because I could not research Bridge. I checked a video of another player using KeeperFX, and they could research Bridge.
B7l86ZK.png
 

Tweed

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If all else fails, you can access Secret 2 and complete the challenge for a level 10 vampire to bring over. Provided you've been getting the hidden realms specials as you've gone on.
 
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So, I've been replaying Dungeon Keeper lately. I must have 200 hours in this game. I beat all the campaign and expansion maps last year with Keeper FX 0.4.0. This year with 0.5.0. I know a lot of tricks that I would like to share.

First off, yeah, Keeper FX is much harder than the original. Why? Because the AI is constantly slapping and casting Speed on their units when they are training, which makes them train much faster. Unless you're slapping and speeding up your units all the time, the AI's units are going to be at a much higher level. Simply put, the player usually can't keep up with the AI's micromanagement.

It's not very fun, honestly. Training units takes a lot of time, which means if you fall too far behind their units, you have to spend a lot of time doing nothing but training your units to stand a chance.

However, you usually don't have to. Here are some tricks and ways to cheese the AI:

1- The most important one, the one you need to know the most, is that you can sell traps and doors! Yes, you can make gold indefinitely even when a map is out of gold! This is game-changing once you know it. You should train Trolls (the best manufacturers) to level 4. That's when they learn Speed and double their manufacturing skill. Then put them to make traps. Orcs are also good manufacturers; train them to at least to level 5.

2- The second most important thing you want to know is that if you don't want a creature, you can just drop them at the portal, and they will leave your dungeon, and another one to will appear.

The strongest units in terms of combat are Mistress >> Vampire >>>> Bile Demon >>> Orcs >> Dragons > Skeleton = Dog = Warlock. These are the units you can normally get through the portal. The other portal units are meh at best, so you should not bother with them. Mistresses are broken. Whoever has the most Mistresses wins. They get good at level 7 but become really broken at level 9, so it takes a while. Bile Demons are strong at level 4. Vampires are potentially the strongest at high level, but they're expensive and not easy to get. Usually, they are not worth it on most maps. Dragons normally suck, so you should not bother with them, with some exception I will talk about later.

To start getting them, you need:

Mistress - Torture Chamber
Bile Demon - a 5x5 Hatchery (just hold control when building it)
Vampire - A Graveyard and dead units for it
Dragon - Treasure Room at least 25 tiles, Lair at least 15 tiles
Orc - 9 tiles Training Room, 1 tile Barracks (which means you can drop 1 tile of Barracks anywhere, and Orcs will start appearing in your portal)

3- The third most important thing you need to know is that the enemy AI can't build bridges. This means if you're separated by water or lava, you're safe. The AI and Heroes (neutral units) cannot walk over lava either. There's a trap that creates lava called Lava Trap. If you build it on a corridor and the enemy triggers it, you're safe for the rest of the game.

4- When starting a game, the first thing you want to do is build a library and put the Warlocks to research. Warlocks are not strong in combat, but they're essential to research spells and rooms. Dragons are also good for this. Every time you get a unit, the first thing they do is go to the lair to build their home. You can speed up this process by picking them up and dropping them at the lair wait they build a home and then drop them at the room they should work in(and slap them).

5- Grenades are the cheapest trick in this game. Possess a unit that can use grenades - Orc LvL.9, Dragon LvL.3, Bile Demon LvL.7 - to possess them, hold control and left-click on them. You can spam grenades from range, and they do a lot of damage. You can pretty much kill all the AI keeper units and heroes by just spamming grenades from range. It's not very fun, so do it only if you really need to. The grenades also damage the enemy keeper's Heart.

When possessed by the player, Dragons are really strong, but without possession, they suck. The AI can't use them properly. They are also very expensive!

6- About the Horned Reaper, I usually don't bother with them. They get angry easily and are expensive. They get angry if they are not doing anything. You should put them on a Guard Post, so they will not get angry for doing nothing. If, for some reason, your Horned Reaper gets angry, build a small room of two tiles, lock it with a door, put the Horned Reaper and an Imp in the room, the HR will kill the Imp and gradually lower their anger level, the anger lower by standing near dead corpses. To Get a Horned Reaper, sacrifice Mistress - Spider - Bile Demon on a temple

Speaking of Sacrifice. to get a Mistress(the strognest unit) sacrifice 1 beetle and 2 spiders. Every Imp you sacfrice makes them cost less gold, if you sacfifice a lot you can spam a lot of Imps.

7- Room efficiency matters a lot. To achieve the best room efficiency, rooms should be square with reinforced walls. To reach 100% efficiency, you need a door as well. The higher the efficiency of a room, the faster the training, research, and capacity. You can see the room efficiency by the white bar displayed in your rooms.

8- You should reinforce walls to prevent Hero and enemy Keeper units from tunneling into your dungeon. To reinforce, pick up an Imp and drop it at a wall.

9- Traps are very effective against hero units. However, traps are usually not useful against AI keepers because they don't walk into your territory. There is one exception—the boulder trap. If a map allows you to build a boulder trap, you can easily win. The trick is to build a door, lock it, and construct a boulder trap behind the locked door. When the enemy keeper imp starts claiming your territory and reaches your door, drop a unit on them. The AI keeper will send all their creatures to attack your unit. Now, sell the locked door, and the boulder trap will annihilate their army. You can repeat this process as well. It's not very fun, but it's a valid way to win.

10- To prevent the AI keeper from training their units properly, possess a single unit and attack them. The AI will send all their creatures to attack your controlled unit and use the Call to Arms spell, their units will keep there doing nothing for a while, wasting a lot of time. You can repeat this process while your units are training, out leveling the AI Keeper units.

11- Samurai are the strongest hero unit, they are stronger than the Mistress.

12- When torturing a unit, the salary of all units of the same type will be halved. If, for example, you have many high-level Dragons, when Pay Day comes, pick up all your dragons, drop one of them in the torture room and quickly drop all the others near your treasure room. They will take half of the gold. However, do this quickly so your dragon does not get annoyed. You can also do this with Vampires, but Vampires instantly teleport to the treasure room when Pay Day arrives, so you have to place one in the torture room just before Pay Day.

13- To make your spell stronger, keep holding the left mouse button before casting it. The cost will increase, but so will the effectiveness. Usually, after casting the spell, the cost/effectiveness reset, making it unviable to do it during combat. However, there's a trick. When your units are fighting, you can view a battle reports by clicking on the flashing sword icon. The battle reports will display icons of the units involved in the battle, along with their current health. Click on the "heal" or another spell and hold the left mouse button to maximize effectiveness (costs 1200g). Instead of directly clicking on the units, you can heal them by clicking on their icons in the battle report. Here's the game-changing part: if you keep your cursor on the battle report without moving out of it, the cost and effectiveness will not reset. This means you can continuously spam maximum heal or other spells during a battle.

14- Warlocks get passive experience over time if the lair where they are sleeping to is built near a Gold tile. Dragons the same but with Lava tiles. Only if they're sleeping. Usually not usefeul but can save gold.

There are many other tricks I know, but this is all for now. I really like this game because there are a lot of obscure things you can do, i say emergent gameplay even.
 
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Tweed

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Unless you're slapping and speeding up your units all the time

Which you should be.

Mistress >> Vampire >>>> Bile Demon >>> Orcs >> Dragons > Skeleton = Dog = Warlock.

Any long haul map a vampire is going to out perform a mistress if for no other reason than being able to resurrect, they also research. Dragons are durable, but yes, they suck aside from handling lava and doing research. Skeletons are better than you think, they're cheap, and don't eat (though they can be fed for an amusing animation). Fully leveled Warlocks still provide support, but if you can get vampires or wizards you can dump them all. Hellhounds do tend to be more of a burden than anything, though they do help corpses decay faster in the graveyard by pissing on them. One thing to remember about Bile demons is their long recovery time after being dropped, if you dump them right on top of a fight they'll get trashed.

About the Horned Reaper, I usually don't bother with them. They get angry easily and are expensive. They get angry if they are not doing anything.

Which is why they should always be doing something, if all else fails give them a bonus. By not using HRs you make the game far harder on yourself, but if you really hate them you can train up a level 10 knight or a samurai as your transfer creature of choice instead.

Half of this stuff is in the manual, if you don't read it it's your own lookout. If you have spare cash it pays to train a group of imps when possible to speed up everything, if you can actually get some that can teleport it makes things that much easier. Don't forget to lock doors to keep creatures out of places you don't want them.

I didn't notice much difference in difficulty from KeeperFX, but I've played this game dozens of times.
 
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Any long haul map a vampire is going to out perform a mistress if for no other reason than being able to resurrect, they also research.
I've changed my mind about Vampires; they are actually stronger than Mistresses. I didn't realize that Vampires have access to the Armor spell, which reduces or makes it invulnerable to the Lightning Spell damage. Mistresses are really strong due to the Lightning Spell, the spell that deals the most damage in DK1. With Speed that they gain at level 7 and Drain at level 9, Mistresses have higher damage output than Vampires. However, I think Vampires would still win due to the Armor spell. Personally, I still prefer using Mistresses because they are cheaper and can be slapped without increasing the anger level; in fact, it decreases anger. But i would not pass Vampires either.

Some of the hardest maps in the game are when they AI gets a lot of Vampires, like in the last one, it becomes really a pain to win without cheesing. Also sometimes when the AI Keeper have a lot of Vampires they will cast Call To Arms on your Dungeon Heart, the Vampires will all insta teleport to there and maybe kill you. It does not always happpen though, odd behavior from the AI.

Dragons are durable, but yes, they suck aside from handling lava and doing research.
The AI sucks at dragons because they only use the Flame Attack, which barely do damage. However, if you possess a level 10 Dragon and play it right, you can single-handedly kill an entire Keeper army, I'm not joking! Simply spam Grenades and Meteor, Heal when your health is low, and use Power Word when they get closer. Fun fact: Meteor destroy Boulder Traps.

Skeletons are better than you think, they're cheap, and don't eat (though they can be fed for an amusing animation).
There's a trick with the skeletons that makes them strong. When the AI controls the Skeleton, they use the Lightning Spell (which deals a lot of damage) and move closer to the enemy to engage in melee attacks. However, if there's lava between the skeletons and the enemy, they are unable to walk on lava and therefore won't attempt to get closer, instead, they will continue spamming the Lightning Spell, dealing much more damage.

Fully leveled Warlocks still provide support, but if you can get vampires or wizards you can dump them all.
Their spells aren't strong, Meteor and Fireball does not do a lot damage.

Hellhounds do tend to be more of a burden than anything, though they do help corpses decay faster in the graveyard by pissing on them.
Hellhounds and Flies do one thing right though: they keep distracting the enemy Keeper units. When they wander around and attack an enemy Imp, the AI will deploy all its units to deal with them and sometimes cast Call To Arms, this will slow down their training.

One thing to remember about Bile demons is their long recovery time after being dropped, if you dump them right on top of a fight they'll get trashed.
Um? this does not happen at all, are you sure you're not thinking of Dungeon Keeper 2? From what I remember, it's DK2 that has recovery time when units are dropped. I just tested it here if there's any recovery time when Bile Demons are dropped, if there's one, it's minimal and barely noticeable. Also "If you dump them right on top of a fight, they'll get trashed" is pretty much the opposite though, they are actually one of the most tanky units, having more HP than Dragons and Knights. The best strategy is really to drop them in the middle of the enemy because of their gas attack. They are maybe the strongest early game portal unit.
 

Tweed

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As I recall Bile Demons are the only ones who can't act right away in DK 1, they have a short thud before they can act. Or I could be misremembering.
 

Poseidon00

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The strongest units in terms of combat are Mistress >> Vampire >>>> Bile Demon >>> Orcs >> Dragons > Skeleton = Dog = Warlock. These are the units you can normally get through the portal. The other portal units are meh at best, so you should not bother with them. Mistresses are broken. Whoever has the most Mistresses wins. They get good at level 7 but become really broken at level 9, so it takes a while. Bile Demons are strong at level 4. Vampires are potentially the strongest at high level, but they're expensive and not easy to get. Usually, they are not worth it on most maps. Dragons normally suck, so you should not bother with them, with some exception I will talk about later.

I actually think Vampires are better but that is neither here nor there.

For anyone who has played the game a lot, keep in mind you can adjust creature stats, general AI, and abilities learned (and at what level) via a simple text file (believe it is called creature.txt). So if you want to change things up a bit to make it just right, it is easier than ever with this game.

Frankly, I find the hero units to be much more interesting, and always enjoy converting as many as I can whenever possible. The Fairy and Samurai and particularly fun.
 

Tweed

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The Fairy and Samurai and particularly fun

Samurai yes, every time, as many as I can get. Fairies? Way too fragile, even trying to torture them requires a constant eye on the torture chamber to make sure they don't drop, okay spell selection, but not worth the trouble. I actually like giants if I'm in a long haul map and I know I'll be getting them to level 10, but ONLY if I know I'm getting them to level 10. The one I always avoid though is the witch because as much fun as it is to see an entire army get shoved against the wall every five seconds it really slows combat down.
 

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