1eyedking said:
Vault Dweller said:
If you look at things from this perspective then no RPG has ever had any real choices and no RPG will. No matter what you do in Fallout the master dies and the super mutants threat is over. Teh world is safe once again. Well, at least until the sequel.
You can join the mutants; at two points in the game.
Haven't we been over this already? Alzheimer's kicking in, VD, you better check your medication's nearby.
I'm talking about the endings. The other options are as meaningful as quitting the game after your character dies in combat. From Per's excellent walkthrough:
http://user.tninet.se/~jyg699a/fallout.html#end
"You always get the first bit about the Master being killed, the vats destroyed and the mutant army driven east. After that you get the local endings..."
Vault Dweller said:
Let's take Bloodlines, since you've mentioned it and walk through it.
Hub #1:
Get the explosives from the beach house. You get several different ways, 0 consequences. You've always end up getting the explosives. Duh.
And what other kind of outcome do you expect?
It doesn't matter what I expected. My point is that here we have a quest with multiple ways to get the objective but no consequences and somehow it's alright - *gasp* - whereas in DA multiple solutions with different ending slides for consequences are a clear sign of decline and bad design.
Double standards?
Vault Dweller said:
Mercurio asks you to keep his incompetence a secret. You can do so and get an option to buy more guns from him later. If you tell on him, you will have to buy guns from other vendors a bit later or find them elsewhere. Decisions, decisions...
It's actually a pain in the ass to lose him as a vendor.
Because you said so? Prove it, explain why.
Vault Dweller said:
Then walk through a linear and LONG haunted hotel enjoying the scripted events. Did I mention it was long?
At least it was atmospheric and well suited. Dragon Age doesn't get anywhere near that. Want me to link Leliana's song?
Linearity is always bad. You're always forced to do this quest, and you're always forced to go through the entire sequence, which always kills replayability.
Vault Dweller said:
Then slash the paintings (optional): different ways to gain entrance, same outcome: slash the paintings, fight the guardian. Then go to the diner, get ambushed, kill the thugs, talk to the "sisters" and pick an option. The only difference between the options is that the hardest option gives you an extra skill point. Yay! Otherwise, there is no difference and no matter what you picked, your next step - the nosferatu - is unlocked.
Yes, it's linear as hell. But hey, you can sneak, you can kill, and you can talk. In DA you mostly kill or skip quests. I still don't see the latter being any better.
Can't sneak everywhere and sure as fuck can't talk everywhere, which makes diplomatic characters useless.
You also forgot about how different the game plays as a Nosferatu. And as a Malkavian, even if a little less. Now where did you leave those pills...
You get crazy dialogues as a Malkavian. A commendable writing effort and an interesting experience, but hardly "a different gameplay". Nosferatu use sewers a lot. Cute but kinda painful.
You say "sneak" as if it were something minor. Bloodlines is one of the very few games that actually makes being a thief worth it.
Sneak isn't a minor feature if it's done right.
As for conversational skills, the whole "ZOMG you can't talk your way of everything!!!1!" is one of the most moronic stances people have to cope with in these stupid forums just because their defenders do not realize that some quests can't be solved through combat alone, just as some quests can't be solved through talking alone. It's logical. It's what makes it worth having spent points in said skills.
No. It's not logical.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... 231.0.html
"Q: Your gate example is amazingly awesome but there is a huge difference between passing through a gate that nobody cares about and dealing with bloodthirsty monsters that are completely immune to persuasion, charisma, and personal magnetism.
A: Let's use the Bloodlines' sewers as an example. The sewers are packed with monsters and are often used as a counter-argument in "RPG diplomacy" discussions, pointing out that you can't convince a bloodthirsty monster not to eat you. The sewers, however, aren't floating somewhere in the void, being completely removed and detached from anything. They are a part of the game world and thus could be easily affected by many different things. Flooding the sewers could be a nice and elegant solution, requiring a bit of knowledge (you'd have to research the sewers, find out about the flood controls and where they are) and engineering to operate them. Another great option would have been tipping the authorities about, let’s say, terrorists in the sewers. SWAT teams go in looking for terrorists, run into the monsters, and eventually kill them all. Needless to say, you'd have to be very persuasive to pull that off, and additionally you'd get a strike for breaking the Masquerade, but at least you'll be safe. And finally you should have been able to push on the local vampire clan running that town and persuade, force, or manipulate them into cleaning the sewers for you. You work for the Prince after all, so you might as well use that to your advantage.
So, as you can see, you don't have to deal with in-game problems by charging at them. Obviously, you can't negotiate with big-ass scorpions, but hey, maybe you can find some dynamite and blow up their cave. If you know what I'm talking about, nod in agreement. If not, go play Fallout."
Vault Dweller said:
Miles beyond, eh? Sounds awesome. I would surely like to learn more about it.
I don't have it installed at the time. I would have enjoyed quoting both games just for the dialogue quality, but sadly there's no wiki of "The Vault" proportions for Bloodlines. Maybe someone else who's replaying it now can serve a helping hand.
The BL dialogue is superb. No arguing here. Few games can compete with BL in this department. The rest, however, is a very, very mixed bag. Brilliance and god awful design mixed together.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5807
Saint said:
The sewers aren't the only area I take exception with, though I probably hate them more than any other location in the game.
I really hate the Grout Mansion. It starts off great, but that fire bullshit at the end is freaking lame. What's even more annoying is that you have a choice between following the SET PATH out, or instantly dying. I have a Bru character with Celerity 5, and I can easily fly over most of those fires with that if given a ramp to start from or if the fire is below a slope. I soared over one such fire after taking a wrong turn, and having a full health bar and not touching the fire at all nor getting caught on fire, I got a FINAL DEATH message. That's pretty lame.
In fact, having those flamey gimps around is pretty lame, especially for melee and unarmed characters. Without Celerity, a melee or unarmed character has it incredibly rough in that area.
I hated the Society of Leopold. It's basically non-stop combat followed by a boss who, while human, has better POWAHZ than most vampires. Follow that with a YOU DIE timer, ugh.
The Fu Syndicate sucked. If you don't have a gun on you, you're pretty fucked there. Think I've already gone over that in another thread.
The Haunted House sucks. Great the first time, okay the second time.. The third time on, though, bleh. Been there, done that, really boring now.
The Giovanni Mansion sucks. It's nice they have options for speechy characters in the beginning. Too bad it degenerates in to SLOG THROUGH ZOMBIES. Oh, and it's too damned dark. I couldn't see through the lower sections, even with my brightness cranked all the way up. That's pretty stupid. If you're going to do experiments with zombies, you'd think you'd want the experimental area nice and well lit up. I guess pitch black is TEH SCAREE though. Then again, the Haunted House was scary the first time, and it was lit up.
Zhao's Warehouse is pretty lame, but then again, it's a SUPAH RESPAWN ZONE.
